Paths of Civilization

drake_azathoth · Apr 27, 2017

VoidZero said:
I most certainly hope the March doesn't need to be supported by us food wise. Even if they have just been established in wild land, without irrigation system, good trails, and managed by new administration.

...That really wouldn't make much narrative sense. They've just spent a bunch of time killing people and taking their herds of cattle or sheep or at worst horses. Less people, more cows to go around. They now have a greatly enhanced knowledge of agriculture and can easily pick out the most fertile spots of the newly available land. Riverfront property is explicitly available.

Why would they have less food now than before the war?

ctulhuslp · Apr 27, 2017

[] [Main] The Law
-[] Stability Kicker
[] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
[] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice x2

Okay, @Powerofmind , here is my reasoning: even if The Law is not enough to complete those two requirements, it will allow us to weather the end of the crisis with less losses. Makes sense or not?
Besides, we do not have enough Economy to Main Expand Holy Sites + Main GS anyway...
I mean...I could do something like this:

[] [Main] Expand Holy Sites
[] [Secondary] More Boats
[] [Secondary] More Boats x2

It gives us communications and probably literacy, and is still within the budget; however, we need the Stability now because it is good at preventing more fractures. Also, we need to show to the Stallion we are trying to do something, and there will be less accusations of greed if we Sacrifice.
And we need communications, so it's either Boats or Trails. And we are only at Econ 4, so we cannot fit in both Boats and GS or Expand HS and GS...

[X] [Main] Expand Holy Sites
[X] [Secondary] Establish Annual Festival
[X] [Secondary] Establish Annual Festival x2

This gives us more literacy, more stability and more "stone age Dora the Explorer for taxes"(c), while consuming only 3 Economy and thus leaving us ready for potential mid-turn Economy loss from the chaos.

Also, it seems I was actually wrong about this guy. He may be passionate and misguided, but he is loyal and has honour and stuff. Cool.

Academia Nut · Apr 28, 2017

VoidZero said:
Merchant ?class/post?: Are merchants like trade specialist working for government or trade groups that happen to be involved in government business?

Are posts of advisers, specialist, chiefs, and governors at this point in time more often passed from member of a family to another member of family? Or from families to families? Are average folks able to attain these positions regularly (within ratio of 4:1)?

March state: Is the March considered active part of our government? Do they have their own set of points and economy?

Private wealth: I assume the chiefs and the like have accumulated some wealth (gold/gem/art work), does our average folk have some measure of wealth stored too? (As in disposable food or gold/gem.)

Merchants are trade specialists who receive resources from the government to go out and get things that cannot be obtained locally, and in exchange get to keep some of the excess generated in the transactions. The big one is that they are often able to get materials for high quality tools (first stuff like quality flint or obsidian, now more things like metal), but luxuries are important as well.

The March has its own set of points and a full spread of one main and two secondary actions.

People receive luxuries as bonuses, and some accumulate in families over generations. Positions often have ceremonial or ritual items associated with them rather than people, but the best person for those job often comes from a limited pool of families, so the items can for all practical purposes be passed down within single families. The average person will have some special items passed down to them from their ancestors.

Abby Normal said:
is there some format for the stablity kicker you'd prefer?

Looks like -[Kick] The Law seems the most favoured, so might as well go for that this time.

Carrnage said:
does expand economy include sending resources to existing production?

??? I don't understand the question. It means expanding available production. With better tech, yes, it can mean improving already existing infrastructure, but it has all been abstracted out to 'Make more stuff than you were before'.

Karugus · Apr 28, 2017

Powerofmind said:
Eventually, when I have to repeat "Can I be smug yet?" enough times, people will stop dismissing my opinions as inherently incorrect. Until that happens, I will continue to be a jackass, because the few times I've tried to be reasonable, I get even less votes behind my plans than being a loud, irritating asshole.

We're dismissing your opinions because you gave up. Because you're insisting that the proper method to perform damage control on the problem we face was to ignore it.

I'm frustrated with you Power because I know you can be constructive. I know you can debate the issue and in doing so either serve as a whetstone for existing plans or propose alternatives as needed. Yes, the thread collectively fucked up- but simply commenting how smug you are and decrying the vary notion of addressing an economic crisis doesn't help anyone.

I mean, even if you're right and the Law isn't the answer to a lot of these problems, do you deny it will likely cushion the shock? That even the principle of universal code of laws wouldn't be relevant in dealing with whatever legislative mess emerges from what is in your opinion an inevitable failure?

notgreat · Apr 28, 2017

[X][Main] The Law
[X][Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
[X][Secondary] Grand Sacrifice x2
[X][Kick] The Law

This is a risky plan. It depends upon provinces doing useful actions and the Baby Boom continuing next turn. It locks our next turn into being a kicked law, a festival, and a mysticism booster (unless Study Stars is taken but even then we probably want it anyway so that we have some to spare).

I'm frankly scared at how many people have voted for it already. @Powerofmind is correct in that it brings us very, very low in econ, mysticism, and art. I personally think that it's the path with the most potential and that the risks are worth it, but it is undeniably risky. If it fails, we will probably have nicer choices but be in a much, much worse situation while making them.

Doing this is rolling the dice. I think it's worth it, but this leaves the undeniable possibility of having massive problems if the dice don't turn up positive.

ctulhuslp said:
[X] [Secondary] Establish Annual Festival
[X] [Secondary] Establish Annual Festival x2

I'm not sure that that's worthwhile- it seems like a main festival only gives marginal benefits over a secondary: +1 art, which we won't even need that much of if you don't go for The Law.

Motoko · Apr 28, 2017

[X] [Main] The Law
[X] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
[X] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice x2
[x] [Kick] The Law
Law should do us for literacy.
Boats to communicate that literacy.
Then another grand sacrifice for the stability.
(Next turn)
[] [Main] The Law
[] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
[] [Secondary] More Boats
[] [Kick] The Law
Boom it really oughta do it, as it finishes The Law, gives us the communication and we get the stability from the grand sacrifice and the stability that should come from completing the megaproject.

Sivantic · Apr 28, 2017

Abby Normal said:
Can you consider doing Grand Sacrifice + Annual Festival? Its the same cost and stability gain, but festivals are explicitly about teaching the people how to be the people, which should help--it might be the best way to increase literacy, frankly, if our king is smart enough to link the festivals and the codification of the law

There's also the added benefit that it doesn't risk us getting the stability hit before the Grand Sacrifice kicks in.

ctulhuslp said:
This gives us more literacy, more stability and more "stone age Dora the Explorer for taxes"(c), while consuming only 3 Economy and thus leaving us ready for potential mid-turn Economy loss from the chaos.

Why the double Annual Festival? It doesn't give us more Stability than a single one.

ctulhuslp · Apr 28, 2017

notgreat said:
I'm not sure that that's worthwhile- it seems like a main festival only gives marginal benefits over a secondary: +1 art, which we won't even need that much of if you don't go for The Law.

Sivantic said:
Why the double Annual Festival? It doesn't give us more Stability than a single one.

+1 Art means 'records and songs and other memory preservation tools', which is a marginal literacy and communications boost; and, narratively, bigger Festival is better at teaching people How To People, which is communication + literacy.
Plus I think 'chance for additional effects' is higher with Maining, and that those additional effects include teaching people about life in our society via songs and myths and legends and Neolithic Dora the Explorer of Taxes.

Sivantic · Apr 28, 2017

Vote Tally : Paths of Civilization | Page 941 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.8.2
-[3] Stability Kicker

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Main
[15][Main] The Law
[3][Main] Grand Sacrifice
[2][Main] The Law + Kick
[2][Main] Expand Holy Sites
[1][Main] Build Chariots
[1][Main] New Trails
[1][Main] Art Patronage

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Secondary
[18][Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
[18][Secondary] Grand Sacrifice x2
[2][Secondary] Expand Holy Sites
[2][Secondary] Establish Annual Festival
[1][Secondary] Study Stars
[1][Secondary] Expand Economy
[1][Secondary] New Trails
[1][Secondary] More Boats
[1][Secondary] Study Metal
[1][Secondary] Establish Annual Festival x2

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Kick
[12][Kick] The Law
Total No. of Voters: 24

Votes are all over the place for everything else but the bandwagon. I suggest we try and fix at least some of the other problems first before trying to go all in on the Law Megaproject

Communication can be solved by more boats and new trails, Stability can be fixed Festival and Sacrifice. Can we at least consider filling those requirements first?

Abby Normal · Apr 28, 2017

Academia Nut said:
Looks like -[Kick] The Law seems the most favoured, so might as well go for that this time.

Thanks:
[X] [Main] The Law
-[X] [Kick] The Law
[X] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
[X] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice x2

Hmm...i dont think we'd take them, but for future reference do we have any sort of actions we can take regarding our March? like...its about as far out as a lot of trade mission targets have been, is there some intra polity half trade half interal politics mission we can take?

Sivantic · Apr 28, 2017

Are we sure we want to take the big gamble? We have a chance to do a double main, double kick next turn. That means we still have one turn to try and meet the other requirements.

Please consider all our options.

notgreat · Apr 28, 2017

Sivantic said:
I suggest we try and fix at least some of the other problems first before trying to go all in on the Law Megaproject

The Law is an all-or-nothing choice. It requires effectively all of our actions to complete it within the time limit. I think it's a very valid choice to go for a more safe plan, but it necessarily excludes the ability to complete the megaproject within the time limit unless the timer is extended.

Double Main Double Kick wouldn't leave us with enough Stability unless we got to 3 this turn via [main] Sacrifice+Festival (edit: and we'd need to get more Mysticism)

Candesce · Apr 28, 2017

[x][Main] More Boats
[x][Secondary] Establish Annual Festival
[x][Secondary] Establish Annual Festival x2

Going for a plan that doesn't bet on The Law, which I'm pretty sure turned up because we finally had reason to realize it'd be useful rather than as a specific cure for our current ills.

This plan gets us stability and hopefully progress on communications, and also makes sure we've got econ to try and get literacy by [main] Expand Holy Sites next turn plus more for whatever other work might still need to be done.

Citino · Apr 28, 2017

Negaverse: Nomad What If: Double Main War Kick

It started off so well. The Ymmir were incredibly wealthy, making every raid worthwhile, even if their warriors were ferocious to the extreme. The fact that they could never be everywhere at once helped, as for every raid they managed to stop, two others would be successful. This had gone on for generations with little problem, and the Ymmir had shown no sign of retaliating.

Until now.

At first, the raiding season had gone as usual. Some men were lost, but most gained wealth beyond what any tribe could produce. But it had been noted that the Ymmir had been acting... oddly. Warriors had been deployed slower than usual, and some had speculated that a conflict of sorts had erupted among even the normally unified Ymmir. Many tribes had increased the frequency of their raids in hopes of taking advantage of their weakness.

All according to the Ymmir's plan. With most tribes committed, the Ymmir swarmed out in nearly uncountable numbers. Worse, their normal regard for the land was seemingly lost as they burned their forest around them. Tribes panicked at the sudden ferocity and were cut down in great swaths as they fled, managing to escape to the familiar plains.

But the Ymmir did not stop there. Still they pushed forward, their chariots harassing entire tribes and forcing many to band together to fight their foes.

Again, exactly as the Ymmir had wished.

To the unanimous horror of every nomad in existence, the Ymmir started a grand conflagration among the dry grasses of the plains. The fires swept forth, devouring entire tribes in a great, all consuming blaze. The Ymmir seemed almost maddened, their warriors charging into the midst of the inferno to stop the tribes from leaving, sacrificing a few of their men to allow entire tribes to be consumed.

The Ymmir swept far and wide, burning and killing everything before them. Nearly every tribe that had raided the Ymmir had been wiped from existence, the few survivors spreading the tales of the Wrath of the Ymmir. All among the plains now knew that to invoke the fury of the Ymmir was to invoke the Wrath of the Divine.

Trait Gained: Terror of Ymmir- The Ymmir have often been depicted as beings out of legend. Wealthy, powerful and wise, but also fearsome foes. Tales of this disaster have spread to all who dwell on the plains, stories of their terror spread to even the youngest child. None would dare to ever raise a hand against those fell folk.

Pros: Inherent respect of the Ymmir makes diplomacy with them slightly easier.

Cons: Oh fuck, it's the Ymmir! Run! (No war mission can ever be taken against the Ymmir)

Eventually, the Ymmir retreated to their forested homes, allowing those remaining to slowly rebuild. Still, while the land around the Ymmir was unanimously abandoned, there were still questions of how close you should settle. On one hand, there were some tribes who still had a few contacts among the Ymmir who would be willing to trade with them. On the other, that put some people close to the Ymmir, and if this happened again in the future, it could mean the end of the People of the Plains.

[] Settle the peaceful People nearish the Ymmir. Their trade is too valuable to pass up, and your people know to be properly respectful of these fell creatures now. (+2 Econ, Keep peaceful ties with Ymmir.)

[] Yeah, no. (Stay away from the crazy forest people)

tenchimany said:
Holy fuck, what just happened. Where did this come from?! How?!

Power of Body said:
I TOLD YOU! I TOLD YOU WE SHOULDN'T FUCK WITH THE YMMIR! BUT DID YOU LISTEN?! NOOOOOO!!!

"Oh, raiding the Ymmir isn't dangerous, what's the worst they can do?"

and

"But the returns for raiding them is so nice, why wouldn't we do it?"

THIS IS FUCKING WHY YOU DON'T FUCK WITH THE YMMIR!!!

Vekee said:
Holy shit, the front page says we just lost 12 martial and 6 econ.

What. The Actual. Fuck.

Bika said:
Woah, just... woah. What'd we do to piss them off so much?

...Shit, one of our guys probably cut down some 'sacred tree' or whatever, didn't they?

Vekee said:
Holy shit, this is a disaster of epic proportions. We effectively just got our military obliterated.

We are never touching the Ymmir again. Like, holy shit. I'm actually happy about that new trait, forcing even our shit diplomacy people to act polite around the Ymmir is a really, really good idea, imo.

Carnage said:
[K] Yeah, no.

Oh god, keep us away from them!!!

Candesence said:
So... anyone still think they don't have magic? Cause there should be no way that they could have crushed us so completely if not.

AbsoluteZero said:
Yeah, I guess we got to see their fire mages at work? I wonder how we can get our hands on magic...

ctulhuslp · Apr 28, 2017

To reiterate on my answer @Sivantic @notgreat :

Academia Nut said:
Combined with a new little festival about a moon after the main harvest festival to celebrate having enough for the off-seasons and thus a means to gather and speak of the laws and how to actually fulfill them.

All told, it worked well enough in the king's opinion, in that even if the collection of taxes was still encountering massive problems - the two biggest being actually getting the right amounts of grain from the farmers, and getting the commitments of labour from others right - for the most part things were still happening, for now anyway.

Festivals are a noted way to gather people and teach them about the taxes, narratively. That's your 'literacy' and 'communication' requirements, in addition to being a stability booster; with Expand Holy Sites, they combine into the substantial boosts to all three non-green requirements.

@Academia Nut , do 'communication' mean 'communication between settlements' as in 'Trails and Boats' or something more/else?

Besides, if we still need The Law, we can do this next turn:
[Next] [Main] The Law
- Kick
[Next] [Secondary] The Law
[Next] [Secondary] The Law x2
-Kick

Thus, we can finalize The Law in one turn if we think we need it, as long as we are at +1 or higher Stability. So lokcing ourselves into The Law now, before making sure we actually need it, is a gamble.

lioli · Apr 28, 2017

Ok, we satisfied the legitimacy requirement! We're now only mostly fucked, instead of entirely fucked! This is progress.

He tried not to let it get to his head, he tried to live up to the perfect examples of the ancient heroes and spirits, to live in harmony with the world and others who would live in harmony with him, but he had to admit that he had a temper at times.

So, essentially, a heroic version of the warrior high chief we had when we spent three turns on Restore Harmony. He never hit anyone either, only made very clear that he could (i.e. would) hit people.

New Periphery State Created!
Classification: March (Military)

So, this doesn't count toward our province actions, since this is its own semi-independent polity. Additionally, we can't actually interact with them directly, not even with Trade Missions. Thus, the only interaction we have is indirectly, through progressions in either polity or actions that link each other like New Trails or More Boats (and possibly Build Chariots). Now, possible paths of divergence... [Humility] is the most likely to go, even if the peoples descended from our culture are dominant, since that clashes directly with the more populous nomad's glory value (which serves to increase legitimacy and thus stabilize their civilization). [Harmony] might also go, since the martial competition promoted by the nomad's value system is incompatible with it, but I don't think it clashes with any of their values. None of the other traits go so directly against the nomad's values, as far as I can tell, though.

As for the options...

Can I ask people to not kick The Law, for this turn? It takes an Administrative roll to time the actions, so since we're spending 5 Econ on the current prevailing vote, we'll run the risk of causing a negative Econ-induced Stability hit.

Projected this turn, with kick, worst case:
-[Main] The Law + Kick, [Main] Grand Sacrifice]
--Costs: -1 Stability, -3 (GS) - 2*1 (Law + Kick) = -5 Econ
---Assume all costs complete before returns come in, for worst case
--> -1 Stability, -1 Econ
--> Negative Econ hits Stability
--Total Costs: -2 Stability, -1 Econ
--Income: +2 Stability, +1 Econ
---Assume no provinces do Econ action
--End of Turn: 0 Stability, 0 Econ

Thus, if kicking The Law this turn wins, the worst case scenario is that we won't be able to do The Law next turn.

Furthermore, if our provinces take two Econ actions and one Mysticism action this turn, we'll still be able to complete The Law next turn. If that happens, we'll have Stability 1, Econ 3, and Mysticism 3 and thus can Main The Law twice and Kick it once for a running total of 4 actions spent. Going to tag @veekie since he's the one who started this bandwagon...

kalugin · Apr 28, 2017

[X] [Main] The Law
[X] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
[X] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice x2
[x] [Kick] The Law

Sivantic · Apr 28, 2017

notgreat said:
The Law is an all-or-nothing choice. It requires effectively all of our actions to complete it within the time limit. I think it's a very valid choice to go for a more safe plan, but it necessarily excludes the ability to complete the megaproject within the time limit unless the timer is extended.

Double Main Double Kick wouldn't leave us with enough Stability unless we got to 3 this turn via [main] Sacrifice+Festival

Well look at it this way, filling in one requirement unveiled the other two requirements. I believe finishing the Stability requirement would unveil the methods needed to do those requirements.

ctulhuslp said:
To reiterate on my answer @Sivantic @notgreat :

Festivals are a noted way to gather people and teach them about the taxes, narratively. That's your 'literacy' and 'communication' requirements, in addition to being a stability booster; with Expand Holy Sites, they combine into the substantial boosts to all three non-green requirements.

@Academia Nut , do 'communication' mean 'communication between settlements' as in 'Trails and Boats' or something more/else?

Besides, if we still need The Law, we can do this next turn:
[Next] [Main] The Law
- Kick
[Next] [Secondary] The Law
[Next] [Secondary] The Law x2
-Kick

Thus, we can finalize The Law in one turn if we think we need it, as long as we are at +1 or higher Stability. So lokcing ourselves into The Law now, before making sure we actually need it, is a gamble.

That seems reasonable

[X][Main] Grand Sacrifice
[X] [Secondary] Establish Annual Festival
[X] [Secondary] Establish Annual Festival x2

Max out Stability and potentially help out the communication issue.

hYGP · Apr 28, 2017

[X] [Main] The Law
[X] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice
[X] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice x2
[x] [Kick] The Law

VoidZero · Apr 28, 2017

drake_azathoth said:
...That really wouldn't make much narrative sense. They've just spent a bunch of time killing people and taking their herds of cattle or sheep or at worst horses. Less people, more cows to go around. They now have a greatly enhanced knowledge of agriculture and can easily pick out the most fertile spots of the newly available land. Riverfront property is explicitly available.
Why would they have less food now than before the war?

Their military success does not translate to great economy from spoils of war. Keeping army fed is different from keeping the army and their families fed. Stabilization soil and building irritation system are both labor intensive and slow to recover food costs. The Nomads does not have a lot of farming experience and agriculture specialists from south can not magically turn untamed land into highly productive land over a generation.

The whole process of turning wild land into tamed land is both expansive and extensive. Setting up villages and settlements for higher labor efficiency and black soil production are also quite expansive.

So the issues are more population, no immediate sustainable source of food, and cost of moving tools/people from south to north.

Academia Nut said:
The March has its own set of points and a full spread of one main and two secondary actions.

Well, we now know March is De Facto a separate polity with us as De Jure parent polity. We may need to encourage connection with them within 2-3 generations to prevent great value differentiation.

ctulhuslp · Apr 28, 2017

VoidZero said:
Well, we now know March is De Facto a separate polity with us as De Jure parent polity. We may need to encourage connection with them within 2-3 generations to prevent great value differentiation.

Trails+Boats for travel, Festivals + Holy Sites + Grand Sacrifice for the cultural transfer and community.

Spectrum · Apr 28, 2017

Hmm.

After being blessed by that military leader not being 100% disloyal and rebellious as well as giving hints of what certain other issues are, fuck it, no, I'm done rolling the dice.

Stability being 0 was what I was counting on as being enough (metareasoning--most EU4 disasters have Stab 0 as one of their solutions), Stab 1+ is too uncertain to rely on as being the condition. At that point it's just being blindly, stupidly optimistic that 1 is what's necessary. If it's not 1, hurray we fuck up and fail.

Mysticism is also too low, so we actually need to do Study Stars this turn because we cannot count on a province doing it. Except if we do it ourselves, we fail Stability.

So, yeah, we evaluated, because Stab 0 isn't good enough, fuck it, time to abort. The actions don't work out barring good province decisions and good RNG/events and that is grossly irresponsible.

[X][Main] More Boats
[X][Secondary] Establish Annual Festival
[X][Secondary] Expand Economy

More Boats is basically all but called out in the update to help keep people on the periphery connected
Stability for a buffer because we're going to take a big hit there at the end of next turn (I am morbidly curious if +1 Stab was what's required and this assuages my curiosity even if I gave up on those)
And Expand Econ because we have to pay for this shit somehow

Sivantic · Apr 28, 2017

Candesce said:
That depends. Do you want it to finish in time?

?
It would still be able to finish in time

This turn
[Main] Law

Next turn
[Main] Law +Kicker
[Secondary] Law
[Secondary] Law

Instead of doing it two and two, you can still do it one and three.

Candesce · Apr 28, 2017

Sivantic said:
It would still be able to finish in time

Well. So long as one of our provinces gives us a +mystic action. I really don't like the failure mode if it doesn't.

notgreat · Apr 28, 2017

lioli said:
Can I ask people to not kick The Law, for this turn? It takes an Administrative roll to time the actions, so since we're spending 5 Econ on the current prevailing vote, we'll run the risk of causing a negative Econ-induced Stability hit.

The Law does not cost us any Econ. The risky bit is that we need Mysticism via province action this turn or else risk an admin roll.

Spectrum said:
If it's not 1, hurray we fuck up and fail.

Actually we'll still be able to reach 2 stability even with the kicker, though that leaves us with no remaining actions aside from mid-turn and province actions.

@Academia Nut
Since The Law does not cost econ, would our provinces be allowed to spend econ while doing the megaproject if econ reaches 6?
Also, the festival's description still only lists the 2 festivals that were there last turn.

Paths of Civilization

Herald of Iron to The People

High Clerk of the Ymaryn

Passing Flan 布丁魔王

Tell me a secret~