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Paths of Civilization

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Abby Normal said:
Approval voting! Also, I lost track of the arguments and projected econ and expected actions next turn regarding the internal vote, can some one give me a summary of the arguments behind whatever the winning couple votes are?
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Party v Palace.

Party = 2 Stability, +1 art, the econ cost is negligible in comp. to baby boom. If we do a PG afterward we hit 3 stab and probably a GA. Argued to prolong the teachings that you shouldn't ignore leadership greed. Argued to patch over rather than cure corruption.

Palace = 1 more action. if we do 6 next turn we're at 10/8-10, so any overflow will go to either census or the remaining annexes. If we cannot do 6 next turn we'll still be at 9/8-10, and thus likely to finish regardless w/o needing to spend a midturn action. Best if not doing TP - East (will benefit from roads, imo) or TP - West (idr what goes with this) or Integrate Stallions (Roads + Party for cult integration).

Main factor is that we need to expend Econ so that we can gain slots. Ride the Baby Wave.
 
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VoidZero said:
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Fucking nomads, yep.
They killed and raped pretty much everybody who bordered the steppes and quite a lot of others to boot. Us still not suffering the same fate is temporary unless we go full paranoia...and even then I would not really bet on not losing every single steppe village we have.
Fun fact: in countries which bordered the Steppe, at least in Slavic countries, a lot of fairy tale antagonists are based off nomads. Yes, in folklore of people they are fucking dragons.

Umi-san said:
Rome + Persia are better, and I know nothing about Rome kicking out greek colonies. Didn't greek colonies come before Rome became a big thing? All I really know about historical greeks is like 1) war with Persia, 2) Homer, 3) the Aeneid was written because Ovid wanted Rome to seem cooler, 4) arches, 5) naked oil fights.
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1. Persia. Greeks decided to be dicks to Persians, Persians kicked them out of Anatolia, Greeks could not do shit, end of it. Well, then Persians failed to invade Greece on multiple occasions (which too should tell you just how fucking much Logistics > More Dudes in this age - Persians physically could not deploy their power projection far enough to punch puny city-states into oblivion)
2. Greek colonies in Italy were there before Romans. This time Romans were dicks. Literally a common saying stemmed from it: Pyrrhic War - Wikipedia
Which, again, kind of boiled down to Logistics > Quality Troops: Pyrrhus was better tactician and had elephants and all...and all Romans had was more dudes to throw in the war and ability to feed them. Romans took over the Tarentum and other Greek cities in Italy, of course.
 
pbluekan said:
The NTP is 6 months to a year by boat, right?

Also, how do the Ymaryn measure age?
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Once they get used to the waters, the trip can probably be made in less than six months, although winter will probably literally freeze travel.

The Ymaryn tend to measure age in winters survived. Some more precisely track it as winter solstices you have seen, but most aren't that precise. There is some divergence in whether pregnancy counts on that front, but plus or minus one winter doesn't matter much to them.

maximillian said:
how do the trelli see us and what is their opinion /position on us?
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"Rich bastards with nice stuff who don't buy slaves. Kind of annoying."

maximillian said:
And do we use bronze or iron nails and fastenings in our ships?
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Both, depending on application/amount of contact with water.
 
Umi-san said:
Party = 2 Stability, +1 art, the econ cost is negligible in comp. to baby boom. If we do a PG afterward we hit 3 stab and probably a GA. Argued to prolong the teachings that you shouldn't ignore leadership greed. Argued to patch over rather than cure corruption
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I'm pretty sure that party is only one stability. We got more than that this time because of synenergy and the end of the environment problems +baby boom.

Also I'm pretty sure expand econ uses up slots just like the baby boom.
 
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pbluekan said:
So make a new Mercenary company. Poof, solution. We have e martial and we need to do it anyway to integrate the tribes. So what's the problem?
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No problem. I want to do that on the following turn. Provided that the Trelli don't immediately smash the trading post on turn one. And provided that one extra company is even enough against their unknown-but-probably-large numbers.

So I want the east post. Less threatened, but will fully fund the company.
 
McLuvin said:
With the Red Banner there it would turn into a slugging match no matter what they try. A bunch of hired Tribes versus a large pool of mercenaries that are a part of the greatest fighting force in the known world?
Yeah a Blitz isn't going to work
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I am betting on tribes.
Quality > Quantity only with really big quality advantage or small quantity advantage.
With a lot of tribes and iron + tactics being, well, great, but not as insane as gunpowder vs natives, I definitely bet on natives.
 
pbluekan said:
I'm pretty sure that party is only one stability. We got more than that this time because of synenergy and the end of the environment problems +baby boom.

Also I'm pretty sure expand econ uses up slots just like the baby boom.
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1 + 1 = 2. Usually I put a + when I mean that it will increment our current stats.

it does, but that's why I said expend
 
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Academia Nut said:
The Red Banner are probably hard enough to take them, but the Trelli are much closer and it would be difficult to support a post that far out. If you got blockaded things could get very dicey, especially if the Trelli brought in extra tribes for support.

For the NTP the problem is both climate and being so far away that if anything goes wrong it will be quite some time before help can arrive.
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How does one fight a blockade in this era? Basically send lots of big boats full of guys, I imagine. Will Support Subordinate counteract blockade actions in any meaningful way?
 
pblur said:
True city maintenance must be hell for Xoh. No province actions. No Iron for 2 for 1 expand econ. They literally have to spend 25% of their actions Expanding Econ unless they have an option we don't somewhere.
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Malevolo said:
Art of War concurs with you, we don't know our enemy, and with that we can't attack the enemy strategy eficiently.
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What? This is just a platitude disguised as a nugget of wisdom. They're using slave trade to support hiring foreign mercenaries to secure aggressive mercantile adventures, said mercenaries require a source of tin to field. We have an expert professional military unit that can potentially contest control over said resource and cut off their military expansion before it gains momentum.

We secure the Tin tribes (which is entirely feasible considering we have deeper pockets than the Trelli in our own way) and we've placed them in incredibly hot water. They don't have tin to sell to Khemri for funds to hire more mercs, if they shift their deployed mercenaries away from the Saffron Isle and alienate trade partners there, and the only local tribes they can hire that have the Tin needed to field significant bronze forces are the Tin tribes and the MW.

As for the risk of getting cut off from supply, the TP will have it's own food and water supply, the only thing they'll really need imported is iron tools, and possibly bows themselves. Spear shafts and shields should be easy enough to make at the TP. This is not a time period with logistically intensive armies with massive baggage trails. Absolutely worst case, we can get tin locally and ship copper from the MW to make bronze on site. And the Trelli have next to no way of actually interdicting that.
Academia Nut said:
This is correct.
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Wait, I remember you saying the opposite because the Xohyr were exploiting their golden age to sustain their city. Has this outright changed
pblur said:
True city maintenance must be hell for Xoh. No province actions. No Iron for 2 for 1 expand econ. They literally have to spend 25% of their actions Expanding Econ unless they have an option we don't somewhere.
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Academia Nut said:
It's why they came to you for agriculture work and are going to ride their Golden Age as long as they can.
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ctulhuslp said:
I am betting on tribes.
Quality > Quantity only with really big quality advantage or small quantity advantage.
With a lot of tribes and iron + tactics being, well, great, but not as insane as gunpowder vs natives, I definitely bet on natives.
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They've actually made enemies of quite a lot of the Tribes around them, using Hired Tribes to raid them for slaves constantly, if they pull away too many of those Hired Tribes they'll face vengeance from their victims, limiting their numbers.
 
Karugus said:
What? This is just a platitude disguised as a nugget of wisdom. They're using slave trade to support hiring foreign mercenaries to secure aggressive mercantile adventures, said mercenaries require a source of tin to field. We have an expert professional military unit that can potentially contest control over said resource and cut off their military expansion before it gains momentum.

We secure the Tin tribes (which is entirely feasible considering we have deeper pockets than the Trelli in our own way) and we've placed them in incredibly hot water. They don't have tin to sell to Khemri for funds to hire more mercs, if they shift their deployed mercenaries away from the Saffron Isle and alienate trade partners there, and the only local tribes they can hire that have the Tin needed to field significant bronze forces are the Tin tribes and the MW.

As for the risk of getting cut off from supply, the TP will have it's own food and water supply, the only thing they'll really need imported is iron tools, and possibly bows themselves. Spear shafts and shields should be easy enough to make at the TP. This is not a time period with logistically intensive armies with massive baggage trails. Absolutely worst case, we can get tin locally and ship copper from the MW to make bronze on site. And the Trelli have next to no way of actually interdicting that.

Wait, I remember you saying the opposite because the Xohyr were exploiting their golden age to sustain their city. Has this outright changed
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As WoG said, if they ran a blockade, our TP is in trouble.
 
To be fair both the NTP and ETP rely on hypocriticals.
However ETP/WTP carries a possiblity, however slim, of a war that we are rather unprepared for.

I am not a pacifist, but I prefer prepared and bloody wars over unplanned uncertain ones.
 
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ThrawnCA said:
Hiring lots of mercs for one turn to utterly smash a threat is a very feasible strategy, and threatening their tin would give them ample cause to press their own exterminatus button.
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I don't see why we couldn't start playing the bribe game ourselves once we get established and know the players. Their forces are not all drawn up in a similiar manner to the RB, plenty of them should be willing to fight for us just as readily or more as they are for them, considering the resentment they've stirred up in the region.

ThrawnCA said:
Because our saltern wealth is independent of them, so we don't really need to go near them, and we can deal with basic raiding by simply being strong enough that we're not worth the cost?
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The action being advocated is to ignore the problem, which means our ships will not be strong enough they won't be worth the cost. meaning they'll be attacked and we'll need to spend actions addressing that due to LL anyway like I said.

ThrawnCA said:
I think it's clear that the Trelli are thinking short term. They have a new shiny and they love it. If it doesn't work very well on us, they'll pout, but probably go raid more profitable people. If, on the other hand, we try to break their shiny, they'll likely throw a tantrum.
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We don't have to do anything to their shiny until we've actually built up enough we can stand off a blockade, if the only thing that changes about their tin intake is it's us supplying it rather than the tin people that will be a concern for them. But so long as the price remains good and the supply constant I think the odds are they ignore it and continue to focus their attention on the wildly profitable (But also wildly unstable) situation they've carved out for themselves in the islands on the other side of the strait.

It'll be a generation or more when the TP is suitably entrenched before we'd want to try anything more ambitious in regard to trying to twist their arm.
 
@Karugus , you've already got your Lowlands expansion, why don't you push for forting it up to properly expand there instead? :V
Like, you were one of the most vocal pro-Lowland-expansion people in the thread, IIRC.
 
Glassware said:
How does one fight a blockade in this era? Basically send lots of big boats full of guys, I imagine. Will Support Subordinate counteract blockade actions in any meaningful way?
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Fighting a blockade will probably require innovation in boat design, although it will also massively accelerate the process. Support Subordinate may be blocked or intercepted by a blockade of sufficient strength.

Karugus said:
Wait, I remember you saying the opposite because the Xohyr were exploiting their golden age to sustain their city. Has this outright changed
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True City: Turns 1 Econ into 1 Econ Expansion per turn
Golden Age: Turns 1 Econ Expansion into 1 Econ per turn

Thus the Xoh were riding their Golden Age to avoid having to pause to expand their economy to keep their city from popping.

McLuvin said:
They've actually made enemies of quite a lot of the Tribes around them, using Hired Tribes to raid them for slaves constantly, if they pull away too many of those Hired Tribes they'll face vengeance from their victims, limiting their numbers.
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Their immediate neighbours work for them. Those that didn't were wiped out by those that hired on, sold off to the Saffron Islands, Khemetri, and Tin Tribes, their land brought under Trelli control or gifted to their mercs as a reward.
 
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