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Paths of Civilization

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Strategic voting and interesting choices!

[X] Magwyna (-1 Stability, other effects, [Poor Martial, Heroic Admin and Diplo])
[X] Random Admin tech upgrade
[X] New Trails (-1 Econ, +1 Diplo, +1 Centralization, other effects)
[X] Everyone can come on in! (-4 Stability, chance of further loss, +11-15 Econ, further effects, chance of over crowding, Upper Valleyhome attains True City status.

Also tally
Adhoc vote count started by huhYeahGoodPoint on May 11, 2017 at 6:11 PM, finished with 1043 posts and 109 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by huhYeahGoodPoint on May 11, 2017 at 6:12 PM, finished with 1043 posts and 109 votes.
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I think wagon rail are more likely to appear in wide flat terrain, like nomadic plain. Since slopes in our hilly homes makes rail groove much too difficult to carve in safely.

So depends on where the next artisan hero spawns?

Personally more hopeful for primitive gear for cranes. Lifting large amount of stuff vertically greatly helps in our hill settlements.
 
VoidZero said:
I think wagon rail are more likely to appear in wide flat terrain, like nomadic plain. Since slopes in our hilly homes makes rail groove much too difficult to carve in safely.

So depends on where the next artisan hero spawns?

Personally more hopeful for primitive gear for cranes. Lifting large amount of stuff vertically greatly helps in our hill settlements.
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Hrmmmmmmm...

Now how would we do that... *ponders*

Aha! Say we need to get something to the top of a hill. We can take a saddle shaped raised piece of masonry place a tree into that saddle and tie off a load to one end. Then have a bunch of people grab and pull/push on the other end. The Hill serves a fulcrum and we can lever the load off the ground. If we tie it in right another group of people can be pulling on ropes that run along the log and they pull on them to tug the load up the hill.

Hrmm I might need to put that through Paint to really show you what I mean. It'd kinda look like a monjolo. Do you guys want me to make a picture?
 
VoidZero said:
I think wagon rail are more likely to appear in wide flat terrain, like nomadic plain. Since slopes in our hilly homes makes rail groove much too difficult to carve in safely.

So depends on where the next artisan hero spawns?

Personally more hopeful for primitive gear for cranes. Lifting large amount of stuff vertically greatly helps in our hill settlements.
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maybe a benefit we can choose upon completing the dam?
 
BungieONI said:
Hrmmmmmmm...
Now how would we do that... *ponders*
Aha! Say we need to get something to the top of a hill. We can take a saddle shaped raised piece of masonry place a tree into that saddle and tie off a load to one end. Then have a bunch of people grab and pull/push on the other end. The Hill serves a fulcrum and we can lever the load off the ground. If we tie it in right another group of people can be pulling on ropes that run along the log and they pull on them to tug the load up the hill.

Hrmm I might need to put that through Paint to really show you what I mean. It'd kinda look like a monjolo. Do you guys want me to make a picture?
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Maybe if someone throw a couple of wheels in river and observe how it turn? Then maybe turn that into water mill then make the connection of tying rope onto it?

Assuming we actually have rope instead of loose long strings.

Vertial and horizontal wheeling motions are already in wagons and animal mills, so just need some guy playing with the concept.
 
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Candesce said:
I think I've been pretty consistent in saying that I'd like more stability, but that Grand Sacrifice is actually a really shitty source of it outside of emergencies.

I stand by that position.
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I am less picky due to the difficulty of getting any push at all.

That was my pet peeve when we took minimal Land Of Opportunuty hits. We would always have to do expensive actions to undo the instability and end up with zero profit and loss of actions.

Now however it is a different story as there is now a chance of costing 0 stability.
pblur said:
We're going to run a stab boost in the next 2 turns, guaranteed. I'm fine with 1, but I don't think we'll stay there. If we drop to 0 before resolving the march issue, I want stab. (Not interested in chasing the 3 stab shiny till we have a little less to do.)
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Not guaranteed as it is only recently that the thread even spoke of raising Stability sometime soon. We went through at least 10 pages before it came up.
Karugus said:
I can sort of sympathise, and while I can't feel I speak for everyone it's less that stab is taking a back seat for me and more there's some very specific and important things I want associated with this Queen's reign. And that is specifically outreach and rapprochement with the North.
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o_O

I

I made specific note of that?
Sivantic said:
I mean, I understand that it would be lower priority because Stability 1 is still a great result from any other decision we've made. I can even understand that it wouldn't have been next turn if we had other immediate problems or the trails wasn't sufficient.
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Right there.

My problem had been that not even lip service on maybe trying to regain a buffer after the mess.
BungieONI said:
Well...

To be blunt it is one of the most disrespectful fucking things I've ever had the displeasure to see.

One, it's disrespectful to the other players, as it drains or negatively warps their fun.

Two it is disrespectful to Academia Nut because it is negatively impacting his players and corrupting his hard work.


Three I am sorry but that really pissed me off reading this. Your string of words managed to find my hot button. Straight up I cannot understand how AN can stand the shit that flows through this thread sometimes, and I think he has the patience of a saint or is an alien. Or maybe he enjoys watching people bitching, I don't know. Is it a combination? *ponders*

*comes back* Hmm. More for later.

I am not mad at you but that kinda sentiment is just UNG! for me.
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Okay you misunderstood me.

I saw zero s*** slinging

I saw people shooting the breeze i.e. arguing for argument's sake.

That is why I made that comment.

People prioritize it differently, but I saw nothing that would have required calling a mod.
Umi-san said:
tbh, since if we were in the mayan starter situation we'd be rly, rly different, I guess what I'm saying is actually "yo, if we didn't have pack animals we could use these instead prolly."
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That would be a really big stretch due to how much muscle power it would require.
 
VoidZero said:
I think wagon rail are more likely to appear in wide flat terrain, like nomadic plain. Since slopes in our hilly homes makes rail groove much too difficult to carve in safely.

So depends on where the next artisan hero spawns?

Personally more hopeful for primitive gear for cranes. Lifting large amount of stuff vertically greatly helps in our hill settlements.
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Wagons can climb hills if they are tethered to a rope with pulley, pulled by a waterwheel. Ditto for cable carriage.

Earliest evidence of the waterwheel is in the 3rd century BC, so thousand of years ahead of where we are. Meanwhile, it's much easier to invent the monjolo, which will start the road to the waterwheel.
 
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Sivantic said:
That would be a really big stretch due to how much muscle power it would require.
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less muscle power than each person individually carrying bags. If they can carry a heavy weight with less effort it's better overall, cus then even if you need to attach teams of people to it you still save labor.

The main problem would be going up and down hills. Obviously you could just add more manpower, but depending on the hill and availability of @Kiba's pulleys it might be more worthwhile to unpack the wagon and then reload it.
 
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Sivantic said:
Right there.

My problem had been that not even lip service on maybe trying to regain a buffer after the mess.
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Uh. I specifically said; 'turn after next, we can go heavy on getting our stability back up'. Maybe a GS+Festival, or if we drop some more we can go all in on dual main restorations and explode back into 3.

As I've said so many times, all I'm asking for is a single turn at 1 before pushing back up.
 
Sivantic said:
That was my pet peeve when we took minimal Land Of Opportunuty hits. We would always have to do expensive actions to undo the instability and end up with zero profit and loss of actions.
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...

If you don't want to waste actions, never vote for higher LoO hits to be covered by Grand Sacrifice. It's a net loss.

Go with a minimal hit, and use a more efficient stability restoration action.
 
Candesce said:
...

If you don't want to waste actions, never vote for higher LoO hits to be covered by Grand Sacrifice. It's a net loss.

Go with a minimal hit, and use a more efficient stability restoration action.
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.... Or go with a heavy hit, benefit from the massive gains in Econ and tech and the resultant comparably average gain, and rejoice in the fact that you actually went low enough to use a more efficient stability restoration action, i.e. RoO and realistically only RoO.
 
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Academia Nut said:
There is some potential for backfire via the "exception that proves the rule" effect, but yes, having a female reign over a golden age would help considerably at putting the idea of "female rulers = good" into people's minds. Whether or not that means all women is a bit murkier.
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Academia Nut said:
Oh, there is certainly a way out. Whether the thread will take it... hard to say.
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Seriously, adding these two quotes together tells me that a Golden Age may be the only way for what most of the thread wants to happen to be possible. And a Golden Age is only possible if we take the refugees and do something amazing like build a city. Because frankly, our last leaders have done the near impossible, so making her more popular and remembered than them? That's going to be very difficult indeed. Why would Academia be uncertain if we're willing to take the way out? Because we have never taken the full refugee option before.

Maybe once back at the beginning, I can't remember precisely.
 
Sivantic said:
I saw zero s*** slinging

I saw people shooting the breeze i.e. arguing for argument's sake.
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Okay I will give you that I think I have misunderstood you. But our values of what rates as shit slinging are obviously different. I rate arguing
for arguing's sake as shit slinging, a mild form being truthful but that is how I see it. Shooting the breeze is for me just speculating about strange ideas, making tech discussion, and quantifying how fucked a particular tract of land is if one ton of ClF3 is aerosolized over it. Not arguing for the sake of arguing.

This all just comes from the fact that my mental constitution just does not like arguing. It's too stressful to be fun for me and triggers an UNG! response in me directed at myself. The UNG! is entirely internal angst.

Sorry if this doesn't make a lot of sense this is a complicated thing for me to communicate.

Just walk away from this talk with this:

If you can have fun doing it then you are more flexible than me and I am not going to stop you, but I am not gonna join in for my own fun. Fun is sacrosanct.

Sivantic said:
People prioritize it differently, but I saw nothing that would have required calling a mod.
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Neither did I. *hugs?*


Karugus said:
Uh. I specifically said; 'turn after next, we can go heavy on getting our stability back up'. Maybe a GS+Festival, or if we drop some more we can go all in on dual main restorations and explode back into 3.

As I've said so many times, all I'm asking for is a single turn at 1 before pushing back up.
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I like your Expand to EH plan. It does not risk over Centralization, which I personally think the Marchers will not like, and gets us more actions. Plus if we don't do it @notgreat's math brain is gonna divide by zero and implode.

More actions will b so helpful. Two mains with a secondary, or three mains maybe, with the Law. Yum.


Edit: @Hangwind he could also be fucking with us. Kind of a toss up.
 
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VoidZero said:
Maybe if someone throw a couple of wheels in river and observe how it turn? Then maybe turn that into water mill then make the connection of tying rope onto it?

Assuming we actually have rope instead of loose long strings.

Vertial and horizontal wheeling motions are already in wagons and animal mills, so just need some guy playing with the concept.
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Rope is already prehistoric.

BungieONI said:
Okay I will give you that I think I have misunderstood you. But our values of what rates as shit slinging are obviously different. I rate arguing
for arguing's sake as shit slinging, a mild form being truthful but that is how I see it.
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This is why I dove into wikipedia and other sources searching for ancient technologies.

BungieONI said:
I like your Expand to EH plan. It does not risk over Centralization, which I personally think the Marchers will not like, and gets us more actions. Plus if we don't do it @notgreat's math brain is gonna divide by zero and implode.

More actions will b so helpful. Two mains with a secondary, or three mains maybe, with the Law. Yum.
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It disappoints me that we won't be able to use her diplomacy skill to gift bombs our neighbors.
 
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Umi-san said:
.... Or go with a heavy hit, benefit from the massive gains and comparably higher efficiency,
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Academia Nut said:
Refugee policy
[] Take in some (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[] Let it be known that you have room (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[] You have lots of room (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ, chance of further effects)
[] Encourage people to come to a safe place (-3 Stability, chance of further loss, +8-11 Econ, further effects)
[] Everyone can come on in! (-4 Stability, chance of further loss, +11-15 Econ, further effects, chance of over crowding, Upper Valleyhome attains True City status)
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Quick look at our most recent refugee wave. Keep in mind that these use up economy slots, and we have to burn actions to get more of those.

Compared to LoO, Cosmopolitan reduces all stability costs by .5 stability; given that this discount is independent of the size of the refugee wave, it's obviously an incentive towards taking smaller waves.

"chance of further effects" almost certainly includes both technologies and social disruption; I'm going to neglect it for the rest of this calculation because we can't be sure it's net positive or negative.

Our options, stability for econ:
.5 for 2
1.5 for 4.5
2.5 for 7
3.5 for 9.5
4.5 for 13

Multiplied by 2.5, the cost of stability using main Grand Sacrifice, to bring them into line for action equivalents:
1.25 for 2
3.75 for 4.5
6.25 for 7
8.75 for 9.5
11.25 for 13

We're netting .75 econ for all of these choices but the last. This is leaving out the cost of the econ slots used up; with that counted, with the exception of the True City option we're making less profit the more people we bring in.

And I sincerely doubt True City is pure positive, plus the overcrowding risks.

So: Cosmopolitan and Grand Sacrifice means efficiency is worse the more people we bring in. Not better.

Edit: For the record, without Cosmopolitan, Grand Sacrifice means we take a .5 econ hit for all but the True City option. Grand Sacrifice is just that awful outside of emergencies.
 
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Kiba said:
Rope is already prehistoric.



This is why I dove into wikipedia searching for ancient technologies.



It disappoints me that we won't be able to use her diplomacy skill to gift bombs our neighbors.
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Weeeellllll~~~~

If she lasts through this turn and we get her for the project turn after this we can def salt bomb everyone.

So many WTF?'s will be generated in Negaverse SV. It's delicious.
 
Candesce said:
We're netting .75 econ for all of these choices but the last. This is leaving out the cost of the econ slots used up; with that counted, with the exception of the True City option we're making less profit the more people we bring in.

And I sincerely doubt True City is pure positive.
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So, what I'm hearing is...ALL THE REFUGEES! ALL OF THEM!

And while yes, it's unlikely that True City is pure positive, it's also unlikely that it's pure negative either. It certainly doesn't seem to be hurting the DP! And it's pretty in line with our highly centralized work oriented culture.

BungieONI said:
Edit: @Hangwind he could also be fucking with us. Kind of a toss up.
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Not likely. His advice is always accurate, just not always helpful.
 
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Hangwind said:
And while yes, it's unlikely that True City is pure positive, it's also unlikely that it's pure negative either. It certainly doesn't seem to be hurting the DP! And it's pretty in line with our highly centralized work oriented culture.
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I'm highly skeptical the capital of the DP qualifies as a "True City" considering we needed advanced sewage and plumbing to unlock it and there's no way the DP have something comparable to the Garden, even in their rich quarter.

It was described as 'comparable if maybe a bit larger than Valleyhome' that's nowhere near what I would imagine our people would react upon seeing 'the first true city' in the region.

Especially since Whooping Cough, is bad for us because it increases infant mortality and weakens our immune systems, it's absolutely disgusting for everyone else since those weakened immune systems are exposed to all the other plagues that ravage them without the extra help. The Xoh's capital is definitely going to be absolutely wracked by disease for a while.
 
Karugus said:
I'm highly skeptical the capital of the DP qualifies as a "True City" considering we needed advanced sewage and plumbing to unlock it and there's no way the DP have something comparable to the Garden, even in their rich quarter.

It was described as 'comparable if maybe a bit larger than Valleyhome' that's nowhere near what I would imagine our people would react upon seeing 'the first true city' in the region.

Especially since Whooping Cough, is bad for us because it increases infant mortality and weakens our immune systems, it's absolutely disgusting for everyone else since those weakened immune systems are exposed to all the other plagues that ravage them without the extra help. The Xoh's capital is definitely going to be absolutely wracked by disease for a while.
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I support this line of thought.

Valleyhome counts as an Uruk equivalent and has for some time. Same as the Xoh Capital. If we absorb 13ish econ and have it become a True City I'd expect it to do something like double in population and size. 100000 people is a whole lotta folks, higher on the scale than the Xoh Capital.
 
Candesce said:
and use a more efficient stability restoration action.
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Yeah, but we don't have one unless we drop below 0 stability and it's really risky. That's one of the main reasons why I want to take the large wave now: it's inefficient to take large wave without a strong admin skill boosting Restore Order.
BungieONI said:
Plus if we don't do it @notgreat's math brain is gonna divide by zero and implode.
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Meh, people don't trust the math, I've learned to accept it. Getting it a turn later wastes an action, but we've wasted so many actions already it's not really worth getting up in arms about.
 
Since the votes are unlikely to swing to all refugees, i can now safety speculate on the up and down of the city.
  • Administration difficulty: highly concentrated population would likely jam up the work/residence assignment process. Likely breaking and improving the system over long period of time.
  • Food source: cities are completely unable to feed it self, as shown by history. Thus the expansion of transportation and improvement are near assured, but the logistics of this will not be developed instantly. Would cause local food shortage if anyone dropped the ball.
  • Peace keeping: first dense population center would likely stress human due to sheer close proximity to one another. As we have not developed any parks or free space, there are risk of confinement feelings for our residents. The noises generated day and night would be an entirely new experience as well.
 
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notgreat said:
Yeah, but we don't have one unless we drop below 0 stability and it's really risky. That's one of the main reasons why I want to take the large wave now: it's inefficient to take large wave without a strong admin skill boosting Restore Order.

Meh, people don't trust the math, I've learned to accept it. Getting it a turn later wastes an action, but we've wasted so many actions already it's not really worth getting up in arms about.
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I think it's cuz folks see all the math and think you are focused only on the mechanics, leaving the narrative behind. And in a lot of folks minds the narrative has hidden mechanical bonuses, by which we've been in turn fucked and blessed by.

Also simple logic makes me think that putting a whole bunch of people together in a True City is simply prolonged death for those people while we still have the Whooping Cough. We can't quarantine it effectively right now, so adding more people to the mix is not important in that regard because it has little bearing. Where it is important is that more people will be dying by dint of there being more to die, and I want to avoid that because of run on effects that eat at stability. Those "further drops" for example.
 
I hope the disease DOES die down since it HURTS :(
it also got rid of the baby boom which made me a little salty :p
 
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