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Paths of Civilization

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I'll apologize in advance for the state of my typing.

8bitBob said:
I think one thing that hasn't been explicitly said, but probably should be, is that we don't get to choose whether or not we have cities.
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Yeah, indeed. The rate of urbanization we had pre-plague was catastrophal but ilike, we had no way to really DO anything about it. 25-30% urbanization is definitely not sustainable, but how do we actually preven that?
 
Rakuhn said:
After the plague ends, what should our target number of cities be?
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I'd say Lower Valleyhome doesn't currently need to be a True City. We have to hit 4-5 EE to get it online after some more Baths, and it only has an Aqueduct for infrastrucutre for the most part. This puts us at 7 True Cities (including Free Cities, which we can't really get rid of) until we get the Dam + Canal and upgrade Valleyhome to level 2, which feels like a good amount.
 
Burnlogic said:
No, I want to change our values to cautious acceptance and a military doctrine of total annihilation.
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At all costs? We have repeatedly overextended ourselves and robbed our people of many enhancements to quality of life and basic infrastructure while mainly only advancing our forging techniques. With the Trelli weakened to a more reasonable level I am more than happy to move to a more isolationist focus and do what we do best. Shape the land.
 
highs2lows said:
At all costs? We have repeatedly overextended ourselves and robbed our people of many enhancements to quality of life and basic infrastructure while mainly only advancing our forging techniques. With the Trelli weakened to a more reasonable level I am more than happy to move to a more isolationist focus and do what we do best. Shape the land.
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he can't respond dude, he got suspended on Rule 2
Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 4942
 
Rakuhn said:
After the plague ends, what should our target number of cities be?
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A minimum of 4 currently, but likely more when the upcoming action consolidation raises econ costs. We want all of our actions to give the maximal econ refund. Right now, our highest-costing actions cost us 4 econ, so 4 True Cities is nice minimum (3/4 are Free Cities currently)

After that, we want as many as we can safely support. That means we need to have a baths in every single one, which will take quite a while at our current rates...

Thanks to the Panem and admin strain, a few higher level cities are better than more 1st level cities. However, they are a new and unknown thing so we should go slow and make sure they don't generate too many problems for us.

PrimalShadow said:
I do think an extra province would be worthwhile. It will cost us something like a single Main action, and will give us an extra player secondary each turn. Frankly, I expect Balanced Policy to finish it by itself.
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Agreed, Northern Boundary Hills is almost a complete province for us. Definitely worth taking.
PrimalShadow said:
Marches are great, but we only have one of those and I don't think anyone was speculating about dropping it.

The speculation is about our Colonies. Colonies are absolutely wonderful for preparing land for us to integrate; the problem is that we are currently at 16 (soon to be 17) Provinces out of a normal cap of 12; we don't really need more land prepared for integration. Furthermore, we really want to add a bite of Txolla to our core so that we get that sweet, sweet Lowlands bonus. Between these things, I think we are pretty much set on ready-to-integrate provinces for the forceeable future.
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Don't forget that they're also developing themselves (giving us innovation rolls and improved land once we integrate it) and also acting as weaker marches. They're very useful even aside from their primary purpose.

I agree that we don't need more colonies than what we have, but I also think we should keep what we have and not go below the current amount.
 
PrimalShadow's Guide to Useful Actions
PrimalShadow said:
Passive Infrastructure Policies
These policy actions gradually chug along, raising our infrastructure level with them. Currently Generating 5 Progress / Turn.
  • Sacred Forest Baths - provinces generally finish the projects they start, which means we can expect 2 more progress dedicated to this Bath. Not to mention that it completes the Urban Poor quest.
  • Block Housing - As a necessary improvement to get the L2 Ironworks our Guilds demand, this should be near the top of our passive-policy build queue.
  • Salterns - With Tinriver being changed over from Trading Post to Colony, we now have nothing for one of our salterns to pair up with. A single additional saltern would be enough to restore that point of income.
  • Aqueducts/Baths - We have a focus on "Community Health", and our passive policies act the part.
Active Balanced Policies
Our provinces have just been set to "Takes whatever actions seem reasonable". We have five secondary actions, plus doubling from The Law.
  • Expand Economy - As the only action double-able by The Law, not to mention something we need, we should expect at least one secondary committed here, plus The Law bonus. Further commitment is also likely, since it moves us towards completing the Priest quest.
  • Survey Lands - This is necessary for the Trader Quest, as well as the theoretical liquidity crisis that might be in our future.
  • New Settlement (Internal Reorg) - The Yeomen want this, and we could use the extra LTE.
  • More Spiritbonded - Once we have the stats to spare for this, the provinces may it to support the Patricians quest and shore up our Martial. And apparently it might also help with the reforms?
  • Study Stars - Our provinces really like this for some reason. And the cost has been rebalanced to be stat neutral, so it is even better than it used to be!
  • Sailing Mission - The Strait is supposed to be awesome; isn't that what people have been saying?
Guild Actions
We control two Main actions to direct our Guilds toward, upgradeable to Two Mains plus a Secondary once we manage to gain another province.
  • Efficient Charcoal Kilns - Gives us a LOT of free forest slots, as well as "other effects" when taken as a Main. We are going to need it as we push our industry forward.
  • Plant Poppies - Now rebalanced to give 7 wealth as well as a new trade good, this option might be a popular pick if we are running low on Wealth.
  • Build More Warships - Once we have more stats to work with, building up our navy a bit is well worth doing.
  • Ironworks Lvl2 - As soon as it is available, we are likely going to want to build these Ironworks and finish our Guild quest.

King Actions
Last but certainly not least, we have two secondary and two main actions, to use entirely as we please.
  • War Mission (Pirates) - We are kinda at war; that requires war missions.
  • Block Housing - If infrastructure policies don't get it, we probably need to grab this ourselves to move forward with our Guild quest.
  • Extended Project (Palace Annex) - The Palace Annexes have always been well worth the price before, and we have room for a number of expansions nowadays.
  • Integrate Subordinate - Those extra actions are just too juicy to pass up, I think.
  • Build Roads - We need just one more road for the next benchmark, so we should go for it as soon as we can.
  • New True City - It gives pretty good bonuses, and that Legacy is really tempting.
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Passive Infrastructure Policies
These policy actions gradually chug along, raising our infrastructure level with them. Currently Generating a pathetic 1 Progress / Turn.
  • Redshore Lvl2 Baths - Provinces generally finish the projects they start, which means we can expect 3 more progress dedicated to this Bath.
  • Redshore Lvl2 Marketplace - For 6 progress, this gives us +2 Wealth/turn, as well as a free megaprojects. Obviously high priority.
  • Valleyguard Baths - Valleyguard will push for this with its FC actions, so it will happen sooner or later.
  • Grand Hall Annexes - The Patricians want this. Admittedly Infrastructure Policy almost never builds Annexes, but we know it can, so if we are lucky this will get built.
  • Lvl2 Temple - The Priests want this, and they are willing to give us extra RA tolerance in return.
  • Academy? - If this is an extended project, we could really use it.
Active Balanced Policies
Our provinces have just been set to "Takes whatever actions seem reasonable". We have six secondary actions, plus doubling from The Law.
  • Expand Economy - As the only action double-able by The Law, not to mention something we need, we should expect at least one secondary committed here, plus The Law bonus.
  • Study Stars - Our provinces really like this. When was the last time a Balanced Policy didn't have Study Stars?
  • New Settlement (Northern Boundary Hills) - Makes progress towards completing the Yeomen quest.
  • Study Health - Provinces likely want to help out more against the plague.
  • Trade Mission - Assuming we have the cure or info to share.
Guild Actions
We control one Secondary and two Main actions to direct our Guilds toward.
  • Plant Cotton - We are going to want the Wealth that this generates. Not to mention, we are going to need to spend our extra LTE if we want to get our Capital back.
  • Efficient Charcoal Kilns - Gives us a lot of free forest slots.
  • Build More Warships - The traders really want this, and we should want this too. Only, it has to wait until we have extra resources to burn.

King Actions
Last but certainly not least, we have two secondary and two main actions, to use entirely as we please. One more Province, and we will have a third secondary!
  • Restoration of Order / Proclaim Glory / Improve Festival - We need more stability, ASAP. Top priority.
  • Support/Influence Subordinate - Now is the best time to be generous.
  • Build Great Hall Annex - Help the Patricians. Get more annex bonuses. Obtain a gov't upgrade. All the yes.
  • Trade Mission - Assuming we have the cure or info to share.
  • Raise Army - Not super-urgent, but something we are want to get to soonish, especially if we are doing Support and More Warships actions.
 
I'm really curious what spamming Great Halls is going to do, both for our Palace and Governor's Palaces. My dream? Eliminates Cent Cap penalty for G. Palace. More likely? Lowers Cent Min further, thus making them no longer decrease the gap and try to kill us.

Also, while we're at it, we should totally get the level 4 Arsenal while if we have room. I want to see what happens if we finally max out the annexes.
 
So do we know what an academy gives? It's good, obviously, but do we know how good? And how expensive?

The non-megaproject version, that is.
 
ExNihilo said:
So do we know what an academy gives? It's good, obviously, but do we know how good? And how expensive?

The non-megaproject version, that is.
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We do not know currently. Assuming it's based off of Gymnasium, I'm guessing something like +X to leader skill rolls, +X to something random like tech.

Even though our King took all the actions, I'm really hoping that AN includes the Important Projects list just to we can see the details.
 
8bitBob said:
We do not know currently. Assuming it's based off of Gymnasium, I'm guessing something like +X to leader skill rolls, +X to something random like tech.

Even though our King took all the actions, I'm really hoping that AN includes the Important Projects list just to we can see the details.
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X to leadership roll is a bit ridiculous since our Kings are already that good at their job.
 
8bitBob said:
Maybe, but it seemed like the least ridiculous option related to teaching leaders as it's just a chance of maybe helping. I figure it's either that or further increased chance for Hero generation.
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Considering that the Academy had Artisans and Doctors, they like give boosts to innovation rolls or something similar.

Like, the Patrician Kids would be going to the First Academy, since it is the most prestigious, but I wouldn't be surprised if our artisans started going to the (future) smaller academies to gain their learning as well.
 
Raichu1972 said:
Considering that the Academy had Artisans and Doctors, they like give boosts to innovation rolls or something similar.

Like, the Patrician Kids would be going to the First Academy, since it is the most prestigious, but I wouldn't be surprised if our artisans started going to the (future) smaller academies to gain their learning as well.
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Good point. It could be related to innovation rolls too. That would seem redundant with Support Artisans already existing though. Maybe instead of granting rolls, it increased the effectiveness of future innovation rolls? Either option also feels a bit unrelated to the Mega's effects though.

edit:

Derp. You mentioned the boost to innovation rolls. I may require more coffee...
 
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8bitBob said:
Good point. It could be related to innovation rolls too. That would seem redundant with Support Artisans already existing though. Maybe instead of granting rolls, it increased the effectiveness of future innovation rolls? Either option also feels a bit unrelated to the Mega's effects though.
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Well, it wouldn't make sense for more Academies to boost the skill of Kings, since our Kings likely went to the best academy anyways.

And I meant that they give a bonus to innovation rolls, not more of them.

Other options may include:
Tech Refunds
Reducing tech costs for certain actions
Higher tech cap?
Extra Culture

It's probably none of these, but I can't really think of anything else.
 
8bitBob said:
Good point. It could be related to innovation rolls too. That would seem redundant with Support Artisans already existing though. Maybe instead of granting rolls, it increased the effectiveness of future innovation rolls? Either option also feels a bit unrelated to the Mega's effects though.
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I think it may introduce a new stat called "Education." Make it a table:
Class/Education Low Medium High
Patricians 80% 5% 1%
Priests 80% 10% 0%
Guild 50% 5% 0%
Yeomen 30% 1% 0%
Urban Poor 10% 0% 0%
(Example)
And it boosts the levels. Though this may be a little complicated.
 
ExNihilo said:
I think it may introduce a new stat called "Education." Make it a table:
Class/Education Low Medium High
Patricians 80% 5% 1%
Priests 80% 10% 0%
Guild 50% 5% 0%
Yeomen 30% 1% 0%
Urban Poor 10% 0% 0%
(Example)
And it boosts the levels. Though this may be a little complicated.
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As neat as that looks, I definitely think AN is going to go with the simplest possible mechanic that is able to translate the narrative.
Raichu1972 said:
Well, it wouldn't make sense for more Academies to boost the skill of Kings, since our Kings likely went to the best academy anyways.

And I meant that they give a bonus to innovation rolls, not more of them.

Other options may include:
Tech Refunds
Reducing tech costs for certain actions
Higher tech cap?
Extra Culture

It's probably none of these, but I can't really think of anything else.
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one of those, tech income, or something clever, yeah.
 
ExNihilo said:
I think it may introduce a new stat called "Education." Make it a table:
Class/Education Low Medium High
Patricians 80% 5% 1%
Priests 80% 10% 0%
Guild 50% 5% 0%
Yeomen 30% 1% 0%
Urban Poor 10% 0% 0%
(Example)
And it boosts the levels. Though this may be a little complicated.
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Instead of something like that, maybe a single, simple stat like Literacy Rate or something?
 
Academia Nut said:
2. Not every shrine, because she is commonly included in household shrines and the like, but most major shrines have a sacred tree for her somewhere
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Hmm, did bonsai plants take off anywhere? Seems like there'd be a demand for those, especially for patrician household shrines, and the only real technological requirements are sturdy pottery, high urban water availability and experience in tree cultivation.

Heaven's Hawk's gold mine is both awesome and worrying, since additional gold production coupled to a general population crash and the cessation of international trade may lead to inflation.

Barring the Crown buying up all the extra gold into storage.

Txolla fortifying the Spirit Channel is good in part since it helps defensibility, but also makes them harder to deal with down the line.

Abby Normal said:
AN told @PrimalShadow and i in our conversation (we helped him with the stats yesterday during the lock) that the new shrine annex makes all governor's palaces give +1 RA tolerance, so we're at least a little better off there :)
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...probably should have done all the Clerk Recommended items long before this huh?
Academia Nut said:
Point of note, the patricians rolled blood well for their new quest. They want a greatly expanded Great Hall, but are offering a government upgrade as their reward.
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IIRC the Great Hall's next level adds a diplomacy drip?


PrimalShadow said:
Our factions have learned that to get more prestige and resources, all they have to do is organize something massively useful for society.

Oh no. Whatever shall we do?

:p
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Well, we kind of set it up like that. That's the fundamental concept of Non-Familial Patronage, which we obtained by stressing the system during the Clan/Geographical/Occupational city management crisis.
 
Rakuhn said:
Look at the extended project tracker. Our current hardest to form True City, Lower Valleyhome, has an EE limit of 7*. That means that we have to have below 3 or 4 EE to form all of our cities.

The next true city candidate will have an EE limit of 1 (8-8+1). The one after after that will have an EE limit of -7 (1-9+1). We've reached the point where building more aqueducts and baths are far more likely to improve the health of our civilization than they are to encourage the formation of true cities.

*By the way @Abby Normal, shouldn't the increasing penalties for cities be -4, -5. -6, -7, not -4, -5, -6, -8?
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Ahh, oops, thanks; i think i fixed that in one of the A&D posts, but i must have copied the unfixed version at some point?

PrimalShadow said:
For reference, I've compiled everything that our Passive Infrastructure Policies ever worked on, going back all the way to the Epic Age:

Redshore Aqueduct
Redhills Aqueduct
Valleyhome Baths
Lower Valleyhome Aqueduct
Sacred Forest Lvl2 Temple
Redshore Baths
Blackmouth GP
Redshore Library
Sacred Shore GP
Blackmouth Aqueduct
Valleyguard Aqueduct
Blackmouth Baths
Sacred Forest Baths
Redshore Block Housing
Valleyhome Market
Redshore Market

Totals:
5x Aqueduct
4x Baths
2x GPs
2x Market
1x Library
1x Temple
1x Block Housing

That is indeed a lot of Aqueducts.
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I'd be curious how it compares in terms of progress, since if all of those aqueducts were 3 progress, we've spent more policy-progress on GPs.
 
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