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Paths of Civilization

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Raichu1972 said:
Now I'm imagining foreign diplomats getting propositioned using gardening innuendoes, and them just being so confused about what's happening.
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'Mh, I see that the young lord looks like he is quite an expert in his... handling of an axe.'
'Uh, I'm sorry young lady? I've never used an axe in my life...'
'Oh, I'm sure that I can teach you. There's a nice, secluded forest behind the palace...'
'...What?'
 
I'm getting pretty tired of people throwing around the phrase "min-maxing" like a slur. Why don't we instead call it what it is PRIORITIZING.

@Kiba's post is by no means the only case of this, but it is the latest so I'm going to use it as an example.


No, the Dam is not more important than dealing with the plague. We need to prioritize, even if it means you don't get what you want.

No, the Dam is not more important than restoring our stability. No matter how much you like the Dam, it is more important to take our stability from -2 to 2~4 than it would be to get half of the dam built. Low stability is an order of magnitude more likely to screw us then lack of (half of) a dam, so we have to prioritize stability.

No, getting a single Main worth of progress on the Dam (~20 progress) is not worth giving up 2 wealth per turn and the Bazaar Megaproject. The Dam is useful, but not THAT useful.



~~~
If you think a decision is overly focused on the mechanical over the narrative, fine; call it that and we can discuss. That is a reasonable objection to being against "min-maxing", at least. But when you use the term as a general counterargument against anything else you could be doing, you are literally arguing against our ability to prioritize, which is a poor stance to take.
 
PrimalShadow said:
I'm getting pretty tired of people throwing around the phrase "min-maxing" like a slur. Why don't we instead call it what it is PRIORITIZING.
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I think people are fine with prioritizing. They just don't like it when an option is shot down because another option gives better math or is more action efficient.

Which, to be fair, you and a few others that do analysis posts tend to lean heavily on the mechanics at time, so even if you don't mean it to come across like that, it often feels like you min-max.
 
ctulhuslp said:
1. @Academia Nut , when you said piligrims have a tradition of planting trees around the route, what exactly did you mean?
2. Do we have a tree in every Fythagyna's shrine?
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1. They literally go out, dig holes in approved places where there are no trees, and plant seeds.
2. Not every shrine, because she is commonly included in household shrines and the like, but most major shrines have a sacred tree for her somewhere

Anyway, here's the actions that will be taken in the next update. The large consensus in the thread means that there was not a legitimacy hit for accepting the nomads:

[Main] Study Health
[Sec] Enforce Justice
[Sec] Improve Annual Festival
[Sec] Support Subordinate – Thunder Horse
[Sec] Palace Annex - Shrine
[Guild – M] Build Glassworks x2, [Guild – S] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
Provinces – [Main] Expand Econ, [Main] Study Health, [Sec] Study Stars, [Sec] Study Alchemy, [Sec] Plant Poppies
Policies – Redshore Bath (1/6), Significant Walls (33/64)
FC – Redshore Bath (3/6), Redhills (Vassal Support), Valleyguard (Vassal Support)

Western Subordinates ???
Heaven's Hawk – [Main] Build Gold Mine
Txolla – [Main] New Settlement – Southern Spirit Channel, [Main] Build Walls
Thunder Horse – [Main] Repair Infrastructure, [Main] Expand Econ
 
PrimalShadow said:
I'm getting pretty tired of people throwing around the phrase "min-maxing" like a slur. Why don't we instead call it what it is PRIORITIZING.

@Kiba's post is by no means the only case of this, but it is the latest so I'm going to use it as an example.


No, the Dam is not more important than dealing with the plague. We need to prioritize, even if it means you don't get what you want.

No, the Dam is not more important than restoring our stability. No matter how much you like the Dam, it is more important to take our stability from -2 to 2~4 than it would be to get half of the dam built. Low stability is an order of magnitude more likely to screw us then lack of (half of) a dam, so we have to prioritize stability.

No, getting a single Main worth of progress on the Dam (~20 progress) is not worth giving up 2 wealth per turn and the Bazaar Megaproject. The Dam is useful, but not THAT useful.



~~~
If you think a decision is overly focused on the mechanical over the narrative, fine; call it that and we can discuss. That is a reasonable objection to being against "min-maxing", at least. But when you use the term as a general counterargument against anything else you could be doing, you are literally arguing against our ability to prioritize, which is a poor stance to take.
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The Dam is important because it lets us build the Lowlands Canal, which lets us finally take advantage of the bounty of the Lowlands.

No one is saying that high stability is bad, nor is anyone saying that extra wealth is bad.

People just see both the mechanical and narrative benefits to the Dam and Canal lines, and want to get it done ASAP
 
Academia Nut said:
1. They literally go out, dig holes in approved places where there are no trees, and plant seeds.
2. Not every shrine, because she is commonly included in household shrines and the like, but most major shrines have a sacred tree for her somewhere

Anyway, here's the actions that will be taken in the next update. The large consensus in the thread means that there was not a legitimacy hit for accepting the nomads:

[Main] Study Health
[Sec] Enforce Justice
[Sec] Improve Annual Festival
[Sec] Support Subordinate – Thunder Horse
[Sec] Palace Annex - Shrine
[Guild – M] Build Glassworks x2, [Guild – S] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
Provinces – [Main] Expand Econ, [Main] Study Health, [Sec] Study Stars, [Sec] Study Alchemy, [Sec] Plant Poppies
Policies – Redshore Bath (1/6), Significant Walls (33/64)
FC – Redshore Bath (3/6), Redhills (Vassal Support), Valleyguard (Vassal Support)

Western Subordinates ???
Heaven's Hawk – [Main] Build Gold Mine
Txolla – [Main] New Settlement – Southern Spirit Channel, [Main] Build Walls
Thunder Horse – [Main] Repair Infrastructure, [Main] Expand Econ
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Huh, so is Txolla already expanding into the former Thunder Speakers territory?

That's the only thing I can think of that would be called the Spirit Channel.
 
PrimalShadow said:
No, the Dam is not more important than dealing with the plague. We need to prioritize, even if it means you don't get what you want.

No, the Dam is not more important than restoring our stability. No matter how much you like the Dam, it is more important to take our stability from -2 to 2~4 than it would be to get half of the dam built. Low stability is an order of magnitude more likely to screw us then lack of (half of) a dam, so we have to prioritize stability.
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I am pretty damn sure that the admin is going to take care most of the issues for us. The whole assumption is based on what we will do next after our King is gone.

PrimalShadow said:
No, getting a single Main worth of progress on the Dam (~20 progress) is not worth giving up 2 wealth per turn and the Bazaar Megaproject. The Dam is useful, but not THAT useful.
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Unless something horrible is going to happen, the Bazaar megaproject can wait.



PrimalShadow said:
If you think a decision is overly focused on the mechanical over the narrative, fine; call it that and we can discuss. That is a reasonable objection to being against "min-maxing", at least. But when you use the term as a general counterargument against anything else you could be doing, you are literally arguing against our ability to prioritize, which is a poor stance to take.
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You focused far too much on mechanical effect at the expense of simulation, which the 'narrative' is all about.

You were (formerly or currently) dismissive of policies that isn't infrastructure.
 
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Citino said:
Which, to be fair, you and a few others that do analysis posts tend to lean heavily on the mechanics at time, so even if you don't mean it to come across like that, it often feels like you min-max.
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And like I said, that is a fair objection to make. If you think something leans too far towards mechanics over narrative, say so and we can discuss.

I'm just bothered by the way the term "min-maxing" is used as a bludgeon/slur; as if pointing out that an option has been optimized to be a good mechanical choice somehow makes it LESS worthy of consideration.
 
Look, it's very easy - if we don't need to spend all our actions on avoiding a very clear mechanical collapse, then we build Dam. Because whatever narrative value Dam has, I can guarantee that it will not outweigh the narrative of our collapse.
 
PrimalShadow said:
I'm getting pretty tired of people throwing around the phrase "min-maxing" like a slur. Why don't we instead call it what it is PRIORITIZING.

@Kiba's post is by no means the only case of this, but it is the latest so I'm going to use it as an example.


No, the Dam is not more important than dealing with the plague. We need to prioritize, even if it means you don't get what you want.

No, the Dam is not more important than restoring our stability. No matter how much you like the Dam, it is more important to take our stability from -2 to 2~4 than it would be to get half of the dam built. Low stability is an order of magnitude more likely to screw us then lack of (half of) a dam, so we have to prioritize stability.

No, getting a single Main worth of progress on the Dam (~20 progress) is not worth giving up 2 wealth per turn and the Bazaar Megaproject. The Dam is useful, but not THAT useful.



~~~
If you think a decision is overly focused on the mechanical over the narrative, fine; call it that and we can discuss. That is a reasonable objection to being against "min-maxing", at least. But when you use the term as a general counterargument against anything else you could be doing, you are literally arguing against our ability to prioritize, which is a poor stance to take.
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Nah, it is not worth it as is, seeing as we are almost done with UP quest. However, Priests quest is definitely not worth postponing Dam over.
Why? Because Priests are already quite powerful and I see no reason to give them more leverage right after they spent a long time "predicting" that we have to CLEANSE PURGE KILL monotheists/nomads.
OTOH, Dam is a source of food within supply of Valleyhome. Why is it worth emphasizing? Because as it stands Redshore has more growth potential than Valleyhome simply due to grain supply. I am reasonably sure than without plague we'd be seeing simmering tension between Old Capital Valleyhome and A Center of Ymaryn Diplomacy And Industry Redshore. Seeing as any city is hard-limited by grain supply, Dam is the only way to make sure our capital does not lose the relevance.
Then there is Canal aka "road to Lowlands but immensely better ability to transport bulk goods". It's amazing tool to shorten logistical distance to Lowlands.

I do not see Temple as being worth delaying those.
In fact, without quest, I plain do not see Temple as being worth anything at all at the moment. And quest does not outweigh it.


Academia Nut said:
[Main] Study Health
[Sec] Enforce Justice
[Sec] Improve Annual Festival
[Sec] Support Subordinate – Thunder Horse
[Sec] Palace Annex - Shrine
[Guild – M] Build Glassworks x2, [Guild – S] Efficient Charcoal Kilns
Provinces – [Main] Expand Econ, [Main] Study Health, [Sec] Study Stars, [Sec] Study Alchemy, [Sec] Plant Poppies
Policies – Redshore Bath (1/6), Significant Walls (33/64)
FC – Redshore Bath (3/6), Redhills (Vassal Support), Valleyguard (Vassal Support)

Western Subordinates ???
Heaven's Hawk – [Main] Build Gold Mine
Txolla – [Main] New Settlement – Southern Spirit Channel, [Main] Build Walls
Thunder Horse – [Main] Repair Infrastructure, [Main] Expand Econ
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Okay, so:
1. I was wrong, FCs can take vassal support. That's an egg on my face.
2. Study Health+Alchemy+Poppies+a shitload of glass? I am reasonably sure that's the anti-plague combo, with other things being, well, other things. What could it be?
3. HH are filthy rich: salt mine and gold mine.
4. Of course, infra policies say "you know what, that 'capitalism' thing can wait for a bit" and go for baths. Can't blame them.
@Academia Nut , don't we have more policies with 3 FCs?
 
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Huh. That's an interesting set of actions.

Enforce Justice is safe as long as the cities don't reform and it helps with the plague so that makes sense. Only getting +2 stability which leaves us at 0, I was definitely expecting a Restore Order somewhere in there.

I'm most curious about the 2x glassworks. I'm looking forward to the result of that.

Something's wrong with the infrastructure progress. It looks like the undoubled FC policy gave +2 progress which it shouldn't.
 
notgreat said:
Huh. That's an interesting set of actions.

Enforce Justice is safe as long as the cities don't reform and it helps with the plague so that makes sense. Only getting +2 stability which leaves us at 0, I was definitely expecting a Restore Order somewhere in there.

I'm most curious about the 2x glassworks. I'm looking forward to the result of that.

Something's wrong with the infrastructure progress. It looks like the undoubled FC policy gave +2 progress which it shouldn't.
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Redshore is level 2 city; it has two policies.
 
@Academia Nut

Do/Can our Kings influence/control Subordinate Actions, Province Action, FC polies and other things players normally do not have control over?
 
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