I'd like to note, at this moment, that while the Forestry passives reduce EE a committed Forestry action would increase it.
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Another aqueduct can only create a new True City if we go below 1 EE. The next aqueduct can only create another True City if we go at least below -7 EE. The one after that can only create a third True City if we go below -16 EE.
This turn, we had a net 0 disease impact, even though two of our cities were missing a level of baths. That implies that aqueducts and baths in areas that are not true cities can help mitigate the disease penalties that true cities cause.
If our EE is going below 0, we have far more problems than too much infrastructure.
- Location
- United States
You know what?
Fine, whatever
Do your infrastructure.
Just get us 10 True Cities or whatever.
No need for other actions, infrastructure is the Big Important Passive.
Fine, whatever
Do your infrastructure.
Just get us 10 True Cities or whatever.
No need for other actions, infrastructure is the Big Important Passive.
Source?
If Academies don't solve our vocational woes, I suspect we need to keep building them until we unlock vocational schools.
Can you offer any evidence that more land is causing us any of the problems we've been having?
Our huge action count is letting us double-main Study Health while keeping everything running and getting extra study effects in as a plus. Losing land would free up.... almost nothing? A single action of supporting a subordinate this turn?
Let us say we have two options:
One which has a known and strong positive effect
One which has a known but very minor positive effect, and the possibility of an unknown additional effect.
It's reasonable to take the second occasionally and attempt to figure out how worthwhile it is, but taking what is known good is a very solid strategy.
We've been trying to explain to you exactly why that statement is false...
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
poor guy
Personally I support sending trade missions out to other people.
It reduces the disease & gets us more prestige/contact.
At the very least we need to check up on our vassals (to see if they're still vassals), the Harmurri (to maintain friendship), and the Freehills (to see if they've taken trell or died or something).
We don't need to kill tens of thousands, just throw them at the problem.
I'm pretty sure the lowlands canal is more or less just making an outflow channel the new river, thus avoiding the cataracts entirely.
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For reference, I've compiled everything that our Passive Infrastructure Policies ever worked on, going back all the way to the Epic Age:
Redshore Aqueduct
Redhills Aqueduct
Valleyhome Baths
Lower Valleyhome Aqueduct
Sacred Forest Lvl2 Temple
Redshore Baths
Blackmouth GP
Redshore Library
Sacred Shore GP
Blackmouth Aqueduct
Valleyguard Aqueduct
Blackmouth Baths
Sacred Forest Baths
Redshore Block Housing
Valleyhome Market
Redshore Market
Totals:
5x Aqueduct
4x Baths
2x GPs
2x Market
1x Library
1x Temple
1x Block Housing
That is indeed a lot of Aqueducts.
Redshore Aqueduct
Redhills Aqueduct
Valleyhome Baths
Lower Valleyhome Aqueduct
Sacred Forest Lvl2 Temple
Redshore Baths
Blackmouth GP
Redshore Library
Sacred Shore GP
Blackmouth Aqueduct
Valleyguard Aqueduct
Blackmouth Baths
Sacred Forest Baths
Redshore Block Housing
Valleyhome Market
Redshore Market
Totals:
5x Aqueduct
4x Baths
2x GPs
2x Market
1x Library
1x Temple
1x Block Housing
That is indeed a lot of Aqueducts.
As opposed to libraries.
Which explicitly calls it an extended action.
I suppose AN could have just used some poor wording. Definitely a possibility.
Note that more subordinates doesn't give us more actions. To get more actions, you need more Core Provinces, and I don't think anyone was suggesting dropping core territory.
Sending out trade missions... reduces disease?
How do you figure? If anything, I would have thought it increased disease by letting more stuff spread further.
- Location
- Illinois
And then you have to add in the aqueducts that our subordinates made as well, which is something like 3 or 4 more, I believe.
Our civ really loves to spam aqueducts. I mean, can't blame them, they're damn useful, but still.
Yeah, I've been suspecting that Academies are like Gymnasiums, not Libraries. They spawned from them, after all.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
We already literally spread it through everywhere we know. Far enough that the MH who we barely trade with fell because of it.
What we'll be spreading is the knowledge that Study Health will hopefully give us. This is what I meant by reduce the disease.
At the very least, we won't just be huddling in our forests while all of the countries around us mutter about how we cast a curse upon them..
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That isn't how our EE works. We can't just indefinitely spam Expand Economy and bring our EE to zero; eventually, we hit our Econ cap of 26 and don't get any more (or do get more, and it overflows to Wealth, and assuming it didn't overflow too badly, is refunded as EE anyways).
It is like one of those sand timers. One side represents Econ, the other represents EE; and while we can pour sand from one side to the other, we don't actually lose it.
- Location
- Australia
Plenty of them won't identify us as the problem. They'll blame something else like sin or trade or monotheists.
Oh; you meant sending trade missions RIGHT NOW, not sending them in general. I misunderstood; sorry.
Yeah, if we get the cure or at least discover useful info like the reservoir, sending people to spread that info is 100% the way to go.
- Location
- United States
I know, but we plan on taking Econ intensive actions in the near future(Dam/Canal) which will bring our Econ down, causing us to need to expand econ, which increase our EE, which makes cities form.
Does my worry make any sort of sense or am I just rambling?
March subordinates give us some very valuable defenses. I am strongly against losing those.
Colonies are mostly useful as fodder for potential future integrations and as a weaker March. It costs a lot less to set up a colony and then integrate them than it would to actually set everything up ourselves.
Vassals are basically just a bad middle ground of the previous two, and we should probably be working more on integrating (or propagating) Txolla at some point in the nearish future. Not right now though, we have more important problems.
We actually can if we massively overflow our econ (more than our true city count). It's not very useful to do so, but is is possible.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
These quotes are speculative evidence that people might blame us.
This quote is strong evidence that people might not blame us.
But if they're blaming trade? It's our fault.
If they're blaming monotheists? It's our fault.
This quote is strong evidence that people might not blame us.
Yes, they might blame those things.
But if they're blaming trade? It's our fault.
If they're blaming monotheists? It's our fault.
Infrastructure policy should realy be thought of as a 'make cities better' policy or 'urbanization' policy. We definitely need it, but we shouldn't just blindly devote half of our passive policies to only improving our urban centers. We have many, many other concerns that need to be taken care of for our polity, and doing something just because it's action efficient and because there is a lot of it to do, is not seeing the forest through the trees.
I mean, we haven't covered the entire land in trees yet. I'm still not going to argue that we should dump every passive policy under forestry.
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Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
I agree and disagree. It's an urbanization policy that can more heavily emphasize municipal improvements, but aqueducts, temples, and libraries are all more widely applicable than merely making cities less unappealing. But they still have the effect of creating a patchy population distribution.
Edit:
Sorry, that was a pedantic response. A wider one is that yes, we definitely shouldn't keep pushing resources into an infrastructure policy when we have a wide array of complementary pressures. We should still keep 2 policies, though.
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We are going to take Econ intensive actions in the future, replacing our Econ with EE. That leaves us with lots and lots of EE, which means we DON'T have cities form; remember that cities form when EE is low and the cities are nicer then the free farmland.
After we do that, we will use Expand Economy to replace the EE back with Econ. That COULD cause us to form cities, if we hadn't just gotten that EE from our spending.
In total, our current Econ + EE is 44, which means that at our Econ Cap of 26, we have 18 EE; not even enough to reform our capital city, much less everywhere else.
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Marches are great, but we only have one of those and I don't think anyone was speculating about dropping it.
The speculation is about our Colonies. Colonies are absolutely wonderful for preparing land for us to integrate; the problem is that we are currently at 16 (soon to be 17) Provinces out of a normal cap of 12; we don't really need more land prepared for integration. Furthermore, we really want to add a bite of Txolla to our core so that we get that sweet, sweet Lowlands bonus. Between these things, I think we are pretty much set on ready-to-integrate provinces for the forceeable future.
I'm somewhat concerned about what this means for the yeomen faction; it's currently set up to fail and hit strength 0, if not in the next two turns. I'm not sure we want to see that happen.
But I don't think trying to force an extra province is worth it; probably we should just toss a Support Faction their way at some point to counter the faction strength loss from failing.
I do think an extra province would be worthwhile. It will cost us something like a single Main action, and will give us an extra player secondary each turn. Frankly, I expect Balanced Policy to finish it by itself.
I think one thing that hasn't been explicitly said, but probably should be, is that we don't get to choose whether or not we have cities. From a narrative sense, cities are a natural result of a non nomadic society growing. People congregate in key locations based on resources first and governmental design second. As our population grows, more True Cities will inevitably form. Since we are focused on public health, we have to make those horrible, death filled, population growth negative cesspools livable. This leads to less people dying to poor living conditions, so more people exist and more cities are formed.
We would actually have even more cities as a natural state if it wasn't for Redshore. It's basically this one big, awesome, free city that everyone wants to live in, which makes everywhere else less attractive. The second we get Block Housing in Valleyhome, which is inevitable after the Dam and Canal since I can guarantee you the seat of our government does not like to be shown up, it'll basically become impossible to have less than our current amount of cities. That is to say, we're actually not far off from the number of cities we should have for our tech level, provided we actually implement that tech (which we have to for public health.)
I can understand people not wanting to urbanize too fast. That's fair. To that end, we should not be dropping to single digit EE as a matter of course if we can help it. But we're not going to be able to artificially reduce the amount we naturally spawn by much.
We would actually have even more cities as a natural state if it wasn't for Redshore. It's basically this one big, awesome, free city that everyone wants to live in, which makes everywhere else less attractive. The second we get Block Housing in Valleyhome, which is inevitable after the Dam and Canal since I can guarantee you the seat of our government does not like to be shown up, it'll basically become impossible to have less than our current amount of cities. That is to say, we're actually not far off from the number of cities we should have for our tech level, provided we actually implement that tech (which we have to for public health.)
I can understand people not wanting to urbanize too fast. That's fair. To that end, we should not be dropping to single digit EE as a matter of course if we can help it. But we're not going to be able to artificially reduce the amount we naturally spawn by much.