Paths of Civilization

[BungieONI]

So gaiz I was paging through Badassoftheweek.com looking for cool things about RL Georgia and I found this lady:

Queen Tamar of Georgia

A quote from the opening paragraph:
"It doesn't matter whether a lion is a male or a female – it will still use it's horrific terrifying claws to murderliciously mutilate your pathetic face in front of your entire family, rip your esophagus from your bloody corpse with a face full of slavering curved fangs, and then fucking 360-degree behind-the-back tomahawk jam your disemboweled spleen into your own asshole."

Remind you of anyone?

 

[Hyacinthium]

I honestly don't care for going to war with the Kemetri.

 

[Candesce]

I honestly don't care for going to war with the Kemetri.

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Personally, I'm fine with calling it quits the moment they back off from trying to take our territory.

We can afford to lose KotH so long as we're doing it in a way that doesn't signal to everyone nearby that now is the time to jump us.

 

[Hangwind]

Uh, guys? Just had a really nasty thought. The Not!Egyptians have less prestige than us. This makes literally no sense. Egyptians should be all about the Prestige at this point-hell, their entire culture was centered on venerating their kings. They have a Megaproject at the highest possible level that's all about the Prestige. So...why?

The only thing I can figure is that they must have found a way to spend Prestige. Think about that. Think about how powerful our actions are when we spend Stability.

We...might be running into some difficulties soon.

 

[BungieONI]

Personally, I'm fine with calling it quits the moment they back off from trying to take our territory.

We can afford to lose KotH so long as we're doing it in a way that doesn't signal to everyone nearby that now is the time to jump us.

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In my estimation that's all we actually have to do. Stand them off and keep them from winning is our victory condition.

Kinda makes it easier than it could be.

 

[Malevolo]

Uh, guys? Just had a really nasty thought. The Not!Egyptians have less prestige than us. This makes literally no sense. Egyptians should be all about the Prestige at this point-hell, their entire culture was centered on venerating their kings. They have a Megaproject at the highest possible level that's all about the Prestige. So...why?

The only thing I can figure is that they must have found a way to spend Prestige. Think about that. Think about how powerful our actions are when we spend Stability.

We...might be running into some difficulties soon.

Click to shrink...

In truth it would be the middle kingdom for the egypt, after another dinastic uproar and the crash of the Old Egyptian kyngdom, so right now the Not!Egypt is facing prestige problems.

 

[Concho117]

Uh, guys? Just had a really nasty thought. The Not!Egyptians have less prestige than us. This makes literally no sense. Egyptians should be all about the Prestige at this point-hell, their entire culture was centered on venerating their kings. They have a Megaproject at the highest possible level that's all about the Prestige. So...why?

The only thing I can figure is that they must have found a way to spend Prestige. Think about that. Think about how powerful our actions are when we spend Stability.

We...might be running into some difficulties soon.

Click to shrink...

Actually, Academia Nut has elaborated on this.

Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 3446
Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 3446

The Khemetri use up Prestige to maintain Religious Authority and Stability. This allows them to maintain a large empire without risking stability but on the flip side anything that would damage Stability or Religious Authority also causes them to take a Prestige hit.

We're just weird in that we don't really use Prestige for anything.

 

[Malevolo]

We're just weird in that we don't really use Prestige for anything.

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We shove it in the face of the opposition.
"Ymar: LOOK AT MY PRESTIGE!"

 

[veekie]

Sorry if it wasn't clear, but that was the point I was trying to make.

If their major way of burning RA is through replacing Stab with it, that means they can constantly bump their RA and always take RA increasing actions because they can just burn if off whenever the next crisis comes up.

This is very powerful, but they end up screwed when they run out of RA because they start having to tank stability and probably don't have many efficient ways of bumping it back up like we do.

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They probably spend RA like we spend Centralization capacity.

I'm pretty sure they've access to both Festivals and Restore Order.

Proclaim Glory might raise RA instead of Stability, I suppose, but otherwise they've probably got that too.

They might not have Enforce Justice, but we're generally not too happy running that ourselves, so I wouldn't bet they don't have decent stability recovery mechanisms.

Their problem is that that's only a temporary solution - if they can't get their RA back up, they keep losing stability.

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Build Obelisks.

Egypt was crazy about those for a while.

Oh right.

But we are using Offensive Policy, so worst case the provinces take care of it.



@veekie

I did some quick reading. From the looks of it, we are still using Bloomeries. While it is possible we can jump to steel with LoW, Arsenal and a Heroic Mystic, the more likely result is that we get pig iron and the process to make it into wrought iron, which would boost production speed tremendously.


For those that don't want to read up on iron working techniques:

(And I may have misunderstood some parts, but the gist of it should hold true)

Bloom Iron is basically a big iron sponge that forms in a blast furnace where the impurities are hammered out by our new trip hammers. Forging is done on site by hand, which is very labour intensive as you have to reheat it constantly as you hammer it into shape.

Pig Iron is achieved by getting the temperatures high enough to outright melt the iron, keep it liquid and pour it into forms. Usually sand forms. Pig iron itself is fairly useless for the military, but may have some uses in construction. The next step is important.

Wrought Iron is basically taking the pig iron, roasting it and using oxygen to get rid of impurities. You can then add carbon to make it into steel and pour it into a prepared form to have an instant sword. Taking minutes for this part instead of hours.

The big leap (even without steel) is that the processing can be split up and specialized, allowing for higher throughput as you don't have to beat the shit out of a chunk of iron all day and instead do it as with bronze, pour it into a prepared form and just give it a finish.

The leap to steel here is fairly short. You just need to get carbon to 1-2%. Or at least realize that you get something awesome in that case.

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Heres the fun part:
Bloomery iron is low carbon, you only need to ADD carbon. It's the same thing as wrought iron.
Pig iron is high carbon and uselessly brittle. You needed to remove carbon, which is hard.

So our process makes it easy to hit steel, then with steel unlocked, pig iron becomes usable as a faster production step.

@veekie, whatever plan you go with, make sure that it gets us out of Tech 0. It's not a good place to be and not something we want to risk despite - or perhaps because of - the pressures of war.

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AN already clarified before, Tech 0 doesn't do anything. Even Tech -1 or -2 is a minor issue.

Though Secondary Study Metal is currenly queued, so no worried.

It's better to have a level 4 Library than a level 4 Arsenal. We should spec for peace, not war.

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Actually, at this point Arsenal is better for science than library. Libraries are for records, but the Level 2 Library already holds just about all the usable information in our civilization.

Arsenal is an elite manufactory. The smallest ones are for experiments in materials and technique, the medium sized ones produce enough gear for elite units, and the big ones allows primitive assembly lines.

Uh, guys? Just had a really nasty thought. The Not!Egyptians have less prestige than us. This makes literally no sense. Egyptians should be all about the Prestige at this point-hell, their entire culture was centered on venerating their kings. They have a Megaproject at the highest possible level that's all about the Prestige. So...why?

The only thing I can figure is that they must have found a way to spend Prestige. Think about that. Think about how powerful our actions are when we spend Stability.

We...might be running into some difficulties soon.

Click to shrink...

Uh, I backsolved their Prestige. They're only like 2-3 points behind us. We would be 8 points behind them if Phygrif didn't happen.

 

[VoidZero]

What would be the logical actions that can spend prestige?

Bullying smaller polity?

Infusing it into culture so population is proud and thus less inclined to object exploitation of other culture group?

Dual in prestige class?

 

[BungieONI]

Uh, I backsolved their Prestige. They're only like 2-3 points behind us. We would be 8 points behind them if Phygrif didn't happen.

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Umi did a different calc based on a possible different interpretation.

If the higher prestige nation backs down, then they transfer enough prestige to the aggressor to put them ten points behind the aggressor, losing KotH in the process.
Prestige 57
57 - 13 = 44 + 10 = 54
54 - 13 = 41. They have 41 prestige. Sad.

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Can you pull yours back up?

E: either way they are lower than us in prestige, it's only the degree that changes.

 

[Concho117]

What would be the logical actions that can spend prestige?

Bullying smaller polity?

Infusing it into culture so population is proud and thus less inclined to object exploitation of other culture group?

Dual in prestige class?

Click to shrink...

I assume it might be important in Diplomatic settings.

However the Ymaryn as a whole aren't really set up to take advantage of the Prestige mechanic. We kinda just focus on internal improvements and mega-projects unless there are extenuating circumstances. As we expand I'm sure that we'll be seeing more about how we can take advantage of the Prestige mechanic.

Edit: Also, bullying is wrong m'kay? Don't do it.

 

[Hangwind]

Uh, I backsolved their Prestige. They're only like 2-3 points behind us. We would be 8 points behind them if Phygrif didn't happen.

Click to shrink...

Proofs?

What would be the logical actions that can spend prestige?

Bullying smaller polity?

Infusing it into culture so population is proud and thus less inclined to object exploitation of other culture group?

Click to shrink...

Khem: Moar Dudes! Moar Chariots! Moar Bronze!

Colonies: What? Why? You're draining us dry!

Khem: Do you question a god?


Colonies:...no?

 

[BungieONI]

I assume it might be important in Diplomatic settings.

However the Ymaryn as a whole aren't really set up to take advantage of the Prestige mechanic. We kinda just focus on internal improvements and mega-projects unless there are extenuating circumstances. As we expand I'm sure that we'll be seeing more about how we can take advantage of the Prestige mechanic.

Click to shrink...

Yep, the funny thing about our Prestige gain is that we've never really tried to raise it. It was just something that accumulated over time by virtue of us surviving and building lots of megas.

The biggest burst of Prestige we ever got was Burning the Xoh.

 

[Reader of all]

They're only like 2-3 points behind us. We would be 8 points behind them if Phygrif didn't happen.

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Hail King Phygriff May he continue to war in the great beyond long live King Phygriff.

AN already clarified before, Tech 0 doesn't do anything. Even Tech -1 or -2 is a minor issue.

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mid turn innovations cost tech so it would be a shame assuming we roll well to let one of those pass because we do not have enough tech.

 

[Concho117]

Yep, the funny thing about our Prestige gain is that we've never really tried to raise it. It was just something that accumulated over time by virtue of us surviving and building lots of megas.

The biggest burst of Prestige we ever got was Burning the Xoh.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, apparently burning Civs nets you Prestige.

Also, @VoidZero look I found a family photo!

Spoiler

​

 

[Reader of all]

Yep, the funny thing about our Prestige gain is that we've never really tried to raise it. It was just something that accumulated over time by virtue of us surviving and building lots of megas.

The biggest burst of Prestige we ever got was Burning the Xoh.

Click to shrink...

Even then that was out of our hands as Phygriff made the decision for us. Good thing too I would not want to have a debate over whether or not it was practical to burn down Xohyr (It was by the way).

 

[Hangwind]

Yep, the funny thing about our Prestige gain is that we've never really tried to raise it. It was just something that accumulated over time by virtue of us surviving and building lots of megas.

The biggest burst of Prestige we ever got was Burning the Xoh.

Click to shrink...

We're door to door missionaries of the Crow.

Our door knockers are just a little bigger.

 

[BungieONI]

Yeah, apparently burning Civs nets you Prestige.

Also, @VoidZero look I found a family photo!

Spoiler

​

Click to shrink...

*flinches back from the screen*


Wryyyyyyyyyyy! They are multiplying! Shoot them all!

BLALALALALALALA-LAM

 

[Andres]

AN already clarified before, Tech 0 doesn't do anything. Even Tech -1 or -2 is a minor issue.

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This is an absurdly careless attitude to have. We do not want to play around with this and discover the full extent of how bad things can get.

Actually, at this point Arsenal is better for science than library. Libraries are for records, but the Level 2 Library already holds just about all the usable information in our civilization.

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You're thinking too small and you're being unfairly selective in your thinking. Every annex starts giving non-linear things after a certain level has been reached. Level 2 library holds all usable information, yes, but that doesn't mean higher levels are useless. Higher levels will give us additional things beyond mere record space and it's wrong to not recognise or acknowledge that.

 

[Concho117]

*flinches back from the screen*


Wryyyyyyyyyyy! They are multiplying! Shoot them all!

BLALALALALALALA-LAM

Click to shrink...

Hah!
Got that off an old PMAS post.

You know despite PMAS having over twice the post count we do, they have less than half of the Moderator interventions we do.
The only quest that really comes close is We Stand in Awe, a quest known for it's saltiness, and even then we have far more staff posts.
I wonder why this is?
Staff Posts are always a fun read though!

 

[Umi-san]

This is an absurdly careless attitude to have. We do not want to play around with this and discover the full extent of how bad things can get.


You're thinking too small and you're being unfairly selective in your thinking. Every annex starts giving non-linear things after a certain level has been reached. Level 2 library holds all usable information, yes, but that doesn't mean higher levels are useless. Higher levels will give us additional things beyond mere record space and it's wrong to not recognise or acknowledge that.

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Tech burns mysticism and iirc to restore itself to zero. Negatives hamper innovation, but can be assumed to have a negligible effect at the -1-2 level.

Considering that it immediately self-corrects, we cannot see how bad it will get without spending a shitton of tech and will never see the result because the innovations that might have occurred will not have occurred. Absences are harder to prove.

I assume - based on the apparent value of a stat capable of self correction and the potentially high but quite iffy value of a tech roll - that each negative point is ~1 roll. We get TC rolls per turn inherently. We get study/action rolls on top of that. Assuming that each point takes away one roll, the impact of going to -2 will disappear in a turn or less.

 

[Hangwind]

@Academia Nut how feasible would it be to demand the Great Pyramid if we win the war? Basically starting a Megaproject to go down and steal the thing stone by stone? They aren't mortared in after all, and thus not "nailed down". And everybody knows you should steal anything not nailed down when looting a defeated enemy.

 

[BungieONI]

Hah!
Got that off a PMAS post.

You know despite PMAS having over twice the post count we do, they have less than half of the Moderator interventions we do.
The only quest that really comes close is We Stand in Awe, a quest known for it's saltiness, and even then we have far more staff posts.
I wonder why this is?

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Speed of growth I think as well as other reasons I have thought up and mentioned to you.

 

[Candesce]

Negatives hamper innovation, but can be assumed to have a negligible effect at the -1-2 level.

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Can it?

AN: If Tech goes negative, it consumes Culture and Mysticism to get to 0. While negative it also suppresses Innovation rolls, and if extremely negative may result in technology loss due to a lack of experts. And yes, the tech rolls are influenced by having a Heroic Mystic Hero.

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Reading "Suppresses" as "totally prevents" is compatible with what AN wrote, here.

Given that the most likely source of unanticipated Tech costs is an opportunity to develop something...