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Paths of Civilization

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Carrnage said:
Doesn't blacksoil involve massive amounts of charcoal?
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Not specifically, but it's made with a similar process to charcoal. We basically stack timbers onto the rubbish, set it on fire, and then bury it to cook once it gets going.
notgreat said:
Because Fertility is moving away from Divine Stewards? Harvest is about working the land, the give and take of the natural world and what we have wrought upon it.
Fertility is mostly about just making a ton of children, with a side of needing to feed them. Harvest is what our civ has been about since almost the very first vote.
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Not true of either one:
Divine Stewards is neutral on both, but both will take it down different routes:
-Fertility - We are given stewardship over nature by the gods, to care for it, and it will care for us in turn. The Land is one of the People, if not a voting element. Harm not the Land, lest the goddess becomes wrathful.

-Harvest - We are given stewardship over the land by the gods, it will feed us, and fuel our forges, but only if we take good care of it. Harm not the land, for the field poorly tended grows poorly.

You could get @Academia Nut to clarify the symbolisms, but Harvest is about her as a god of FARMERS, while Fertility is about her as a god of LIFE.
Citino said:
Question for those who know about this stuff, how are our neighbors getting fuel for their forges? We did it by having all the forests we need to do so, but most other groups don't really have that much wood. So are they just cutting down what trees they have for fuel, or do they have some other way of getting fuel?
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It's not actually that hard to get wood if you don't give a damn about sustainability. A forest takes centuries to deplete for bronze age technology, and they are likely to discover coal before they ever run out.
Academia Nut said:
Nope!

You produce sponge iron, which is directly reduced. You hammer out the slag to get wrought iron.
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Yep :D

Carrnage said:
I wonder if the northern provinces supplement their blacksoil production with the corpses of their enemies.
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Nope. They leave the corpses of enemies for the crows to pick clean and return to nature.
 
zamin said:
Eh, veekie's convinced me.

[X] [Crow] Spider-Eyed
[X] [Fyth] Fertility
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Improve Annual Festival
[X] [Secondary] Improve Annual Festival x2

Personally, I'm not sure whether to go with "Harvest" or "Fertility" for Fyth from a purely mechanical perspective, but fertility has nekkid goddess, so it's obviously better from a fluff perspective.

As for the Double Mained Festival, I'm honestly not too worried about it. If it wins, great. If it doesn't, I'm not going to complain if one of the other winning options takes over a Secondary Slot. Still, I hope that making a big festival might get our shamans to calm down a bit and stop slapping each other over whether or not the goddess should be wearing underwear.
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Well doing an Enforce Justice + a Festival gives +2 Stability unless we crit-fail the admin roll and puts us right in a Golden Age, while the Second Festival gives us more art and costs an Econ. Also if you may be concerned about over-centralizing then note that the last time we knew our cap we were and early ancient provincial kingdom (elective) and with our shift to Oligarchy it is almost certain our Centralization buffer has gone up. So we will have space to build roads likely as not.

Just sayin. :p
 
Sugnez said:
[X] [Crow] Spider-Eyed
[X] [Fyth] Fertility
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Improve Annual Festival
[X] [Secondary] Study Forests

Alright, so Festivals are super effective this turn and there's a decent vote building to finally study the TREES!

Guys if Study Forests actually wins I need to figure out a way to make everyone in this thread cookies.
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See this list:
pblur said:
Assuming we do:
[] [Main] Grand Temple
[] [Secondary] Improve Annual Festival

Our secondary options:
  • Expand Snail Cultivation -- goes 25-50% to 1 stat per turn
  • Expand Vineyard -- goes 25-50% to 1 stat per turn, protects true city
  • Saltern - Southshore Saltern -- goes 33% to 1 stat per turn in risk-free good.
  • Policy (Megaproject Support) -- allows us to blitz megaprojects using true city to recycle slots
  • Enforce Justice -- gets golden age, gives 1 stat per turn, 1 innovation roll per turn, protects true city
  • Study Forest -- gets a single innovation roll.
One of these things is not like the others.
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Can you really argue that Study Forest is better than all of those? Wait 3 turns and I promise I'll support a Main Study Forest in a golden age, with a brand new temple in the middle of our forest and people coming from the surrounding kingdoms to see how awesome we are.

Right now, please help build to that position. It takes a single concerted push to make all our study actions better.
 
Yes, as none of those are absolutely necessary, and I dislike any mention of "do it later" as that turns into "never"

*stares at Dam Megaproject sadly*
 
Sivantic said:
Yes, as none of those are absolutely necessary, and I dislike any mention of "do it later" as that turns into "never"

*stares at Dam Megaproject sadly*
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This is literally the worst time in the quest to date for those sorts of nonurgent actions because they will be so much better in three turns if we focus now.

Edit: well, aside from mid crisis. Not dying is more important than increasing our action economy by 60% in 3 turns.
 
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veekie said:
Not true of either one:
Divine Stewards is neutral on both, but both will take it down different routes:
-Fertility - We are given stewardship over nature by the gods, to care for it, and it will care for us in turn. The Land is one of the People, if not a voting element. Harm not the Land, lest the goddess becomes wrathful.

-Harvest - We are given stewardship over the land by the gods, it will feed us, and fuel our forges, but only if we take good care of it. Harm not the land, for the field poorly tended grows poorly.

You could get @Academia Nut to clarify the symbolisms, but Harvest is about her as a god of FARMERS, while Fertility is about her as a god of LIFE.
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I agree that clarification would be the best way to resolve this, but your claims do not seem to be strongly backed by evidence.
Academia Nut said:
fertility. The latter group are usually the ones who bring up not liking clothing as they see her as being closer to nature and they feel that depicting her with any more trappings of civilization than a sickle is an interference with her function.
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Harvest is about using the land and improving it. Of hard work and the associated harvests.

Fertility is about nature without interference. She is not one of The People, she is free. She is unattached. She is the stereotypical pastoral Arcadia, the Golden Age of times long past.

One is about Step Farms and Managed Forests, the other is about nature, babies, and possibly breeding.

Sivantic said:
Yes, as none of those are absolutely necessary, and I dislike any mention of "do it later" as that turns into "never"

*stares at Dam Megaproject sadly*
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I don't know about you but I'm going for the Dam right after the Library. I'd do it sooner but Golden Age+Library sounds like a great combo, and the Library is completed a bit faster.
 
Sivantic said:
Yes, as none of those are absolutely necessary, and I dislike any mention of "do it later" as that turns into "never"

*stares at Dam Megaproject sadly*
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Dam is a high personal priority as well. I keep sneaking it back in to megaproject discussions. :D
 
@veekie
Just wondering, why the double-main on Improve Annual Festival? All it does it give us art overflow. A [Secondary] devoted to it makes a lot of sense, but [Main]ing it is just wasteful.

Enforce Justice would give us a Golden Age if we can keep Stability from dropping for a turn.
 
Abby Normal said:
Err, when did we get these? I remember people originally thinking the "blue stone" that turned out to be our copper mine was Lapis, but i dont even remember mention of another dye other than that and the snails...
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We didn't. This is listing examples of potential Fine Dyes.

Regular Dyes don't count, but Aquamarine, Tyrian Purple and Saffron do.
Abby Normal said:
On both of these, i think its the iron tools giving us an edge in how much we can draw out
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Hmm, that makes sense yes. Mining with copper tools is a pain and bronze is too valuable to use for mining if you're waging war with it.
notgreat said:
As to the [Fyth] vote...

When the reason people are voting is because they want to move the quest over to QQ, I don't really think I can argue against that.
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Uh...who the heck is making that argument?
BungieONI said:
Well doing an Enforce Justice + a Festival gives +2 Stability unless we crit-fail the admin roll and puts us right in a Golden Age, while the Second Festival gives us more art and costs an Econ. Also if you may be concerned about over-centralizing then note that the last time we knew our cap we were and early ancient provincial kingdom (elective) and with our shift to Oligarchy it is almost certain our Centralization buffer has gone up. So we will have space to build roads likely as not.

Just sayin. :p
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Uh...dude. Oligarchy is a decentralized form of government.
Kingdoms are a centralized form. So we're only intermediate level for Centralization cap.
Please stop burning it away because patience is beyond us. We can take a Secondary Festival next turn to finish the process.
 
[X] [Crow] Spider-Eyed
[X] [Fyth] Fertility
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Improve Annual Festival
[X] [Secondary] Improve Annual Festival x2
 
notgreat said:
@veekie
Just wondering, why the double-main on Improve Annual Festival? All it does it give us art overflow. A [Secondary] devoted to it makes a lot of sense, but [Main]ing it is just wasteful.

Enforce Justice would give us a Golden Age if we can keep Stability from dropping for a turn.
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Enforce Justice makes things worse. I'll gladly drop the Main festival Additional Effects to see it lose.

Our logistics and cultural drift are getting worse and we're locking away the means of improving it
 
veekie said:
We didn't. This is listing examples of potential Fine Dyes.

Regular Dyes don't count, but Aquamarine, Tyrian Purple and Saffron do.

Hmm, that makes sense yes. Mining with copper tools is a pain and bronze is too valuable to use for mining if you're waging war with it.

Uh...who the heck is making that argument?

Uh...dude. Oligarchy is a decentralized form of government.
Kingdoms are a centralized form. So we're only intermediate level for Centralization cap.
Please stop burning it away because patience is beyond us. We can take a Secondary Festival next turn to finish the process.
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Unfortunately Festivals can only take us up to stability 2. We'll have to Enforce Justice, Main Proclaim Glory, finish a land management megaproject, or get a special stability from somewhere to get up to stability 3.

Edit: Lol, so many Blackbirds about...
 
Carrnage said:
I wonder if the northern provinces supplement their blacksoil production with the corpses of their enemies.
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"Where are the bodies?."

"What bodies?."

"Seriously. Where are the bodies of the nomads?. It needs to be disposed off."

"Oh those bodies. Well since demons curse the dead. We decided to wait for you guys. Unfortunately wild animals seems to devour them all before the bones were pick clean. We burry the bones and recover the equipment.*silently signal the others to cover the one expose corpse in the crop field*"
 
veekie said:
Uh...who the heck is making that argument?
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It was an exaggeration, but
zamin said:
but fertility has nekkid goddess, so it's obviously better from a fluff perspective.
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Sivantic said:
the nakky!
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There were several others along those lines.

veekie said:
Enforce Justice makes things worse. I'll gladly drop the Main festival Additional Effects to see it lose.
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Can you explain how? Remember that our government upgrade likely raised our Centralization cap.
edit: Also, what do you think the Centralization increase means? It reduces cultural drift by making the King more important. If you want to minimize cultural drift, maximize Centralization ASAP.
 
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Bad government idea

Round table assembly for all decision of any kind.
  • Each province gets 1 vote
  • Each holy site gets 1 vote
  • Each March/Colony/Trade Post gets 1 vote
  • King gets 2 votes
  • Each department chief gets 1 vote
Edit: Stolen from EU.
 
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veekie said:
We didn't. This is listing examples of potential Fine Dyes.

Regular Dyes don't count, but Aquamarine, Tyrian Purple and Saffron do.

Hmm, that makes sense yes. Mining with copper tools is a pain and bronze is too valuable to use for mining if you're waging war with it.

Uh...who the heck is making that argument?

Uh...dude. Oligarchy is a decentralized form of government.
Kingdoms are a centralized form. So we're only intermediate level for Centralization cap.
Please stop burning it away because patience is beyond us. We can take a Secondary Festival next turn to finish the process.
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But we're not an "oligarchy". We're an (ancient) oligarchic kingdom. I'm pretty sure literally the only real change from ancient provincial kingdom was the increased hereditary-ness and factionalism as a result of defacto noble lines. Our centralization should be the same as before (that is, gold starting at 5, so 5 and 6 gold, 7 as the limit/red).
 
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