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Paths of Civilization

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Okay, got it.

Although. Isn't religion often tied to stability? Getting things sorted out on the Temple could grant stability...
 
Assuming we do:
[] [Main] Grand Temple
[] [Secondary] Improve Annual Festival

Our secondary options:
  • Expand Snail Cultivation -- goes 25-50% to 1 stat per turn
  • Expand Vineyard -- goes 25-50% to 1 stat per turn, protects true city
  • Saltern - Southshore Saltern -- goes 33% to 1 stat per turn in risk-free good.
  • Policy (Megaproject Support) -- allows us to blitz megaprojects using true city to recycle slots
  • Enforce Justice -- gets golden age, gives 1 stat per turn, 1 innovation roll per turn, protects true city
  • Study Forest -- gets a single innovation roll.
One of these things is not like the others.
 
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Kiba said:
You can gold centralization with much less risk by building new trails instead. We're risking overcentralization with 1-3 cent.
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Our cap as a Early Provincial Ancient Kingdom (Elective) was about 6 or 7. Oligarchy almost certainly shifted it higher.
 
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Kiba said:
You can gold centralization with much less risk by building new trails instead. We're risking overcentralization with 1-3 cent.
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1) I highly suspect that our new government has a higher Centralization cap due to the "Good mix of central authority" listed.
2) The +3 Cent is rather unlikely since we have a reasonable number of walls and we're only doing it as a [Secondary]
edit:
3) On the unlikely chance that both above turn out false, in the middle of a Golden Age with lots of stats to spare is one of the best possible times for this to happen.
 
I got no time!
Why am I still going with the analysis?!


Diplomacy 13 (+0+3) [+1]->13 (+3) [+1]

Still yet to cash in. Would generate 3 Overflow to Art when it does.

Economy 4 (+5+1) [-1]->11 (+1) [-1]
Econ Expansion 5 (+1)->4

As usual, add 2 Refugees and -1 City Tax.
Lost 2 slots to Refugees.

Stability -1->1 (confident)

Clearly the People approve of spanking quarreling shamans!
It even distracted people from the migrants, who were probably watching shamans arguing with great consternation.

Cultural
Art 13

Unchanged, but will overflow by 2 into Mysticism once Diplomacy overflows next turn. By 3 if we Secondary Festival. By 5 if we Main Festival

Mysticism 7 [-1]

Unchanged but will reach 9 next turn from Art overflow. We can push it all the way to 12 via overflow if we Main Festival though.


Trade Status
Resource Status Rivals
Luxuries    
Fine Pottery Minor Xohyssiri
Fine Dye Leading Hathatyn
Fine Textiles None Xohyssiri, Swamp Folk
Gold None Hathatyn, Metal Workers
Silver Moderate Hath, MW, Xoh
Salt Leading None
Wine Leading Hath
Strategic    
Copper Moderate Hath, Highlanders, Thunder Horse, MW
Bronze None Non-traded
Tin None MW (in), TH (in), Hath (in)
Iron Non-traded dominant None
Fine Pottery
-Xohyssiri - Dominant
-Ymaryn - "That thing you keep grains in? Why bother?"

Fine Dye(this refers to Tyrian Purple like we have, Saffron and Lapis Lazuli elsewhere, not the 'common' browns, greens and reds of plant dyes, char and ochre)
-Ymaryn - Leading, close to Dominance.
-Hathatyn - We don't know their status here, but it's possible they have their own supply of Tyrian Purple, or they may be using mineral dyes.

Fine Textiles(this refers to Silk, Cotton, not sure if particularly fine furs and leathers count as this or their own category, but you don't get those in our parts, though our cow leather is going to be improving as we make extremely heavy use of fine white Calfskin)
-Ymaryn - "If it keeps your danglies in it's fine". Unless we discover Sea Silk(which lives around this climate type), we're probably not getting anywhere
-Xohyssiri - We know they have access to Cotton via the Swamp Folk.
-Swamp Folk - We know they have access to Cotton.

Gold
-Ymaryn - "Shiny~"
-Hathatyn - Diggy Diggy Hole
-Metalworkers - Diggy Diggy Hole

Silver
-Ymaryn - Interestingly, even a single silver mine was enough to take us to Moderate, suggesting that neither the Hathatyn nor the Metal Workers have particularly large silver mines
-Hathatyn - Diggy Diggy Hole
-Metalworkers - Diggy Diggy Hole

Salt
-Ymaryn - Leading. Just a short step to Dominant.

Wine
-Ymaryn - Leading . Just a short step to Dominant.
-Hathatyn - Hmm, they have their own wines? But then we could already make small amounts of wine from before, just not in industrial quantities.

Copper
-Ymaryn - Interestingly, even a single copper mine was enough to take us to Moderate, suggesting that neither the Hathatyn nor the Metal Workers have particularly large copper mines...or that they've been using up a chunk of their copper to make bronze, dropping their export supply.
-Hathatyn - Diggy Diggy Hole
-Metalworkers - Diggy Diggy Hole

Tin
-Metalworkers, Thunder Horse and Hathatyn have this for Internal use only. It's unlikely to be traded for a long time as a strategic resource.

Materials
Well Dressed Stone
Ash glazed pottery
Bronze
Early iron bloomeries
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We stole Bronze tech via migrants!
I love Cosmopolitan Acceptance.
Watercraft
Great Canoes
Major docks
Small Sailboats
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Docking Devised.

Academia Nut said:
The king discovered a funny thing while vaguely paying attention to the arguments about the spirits and the gods the shamans were having: the shamans who worked among the common People tended to prefer Fythhagyna as the central god to actually pray and sacrifice to, but the higher level shamans who tended to deal with the more esoteric stuff really liked Crow as their central figure.

Really liked Crow.
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That's one way to see it. Crow is highly relevant to the intellectual caste who think about Why and How things happen.

The farmers just want the trees and crops to keep growing, thanks.

Eventually the king had to step in and set a deadline to give an answer or he would choose, just so that the work could continue and he wouldn't have to continue authorizing the deployment of warriors to break up the small but vigorous riots that kept breaking out among red faced elders. Fortunately the rest of the People seemed more bemused than upset by this.
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Technology discovered: Schadenfreude
It was then discovered that among some shamans, a day ended at daybreak and among others it ended at sunset, so there was some slight confusion among the delegates for the final debate as to whether or not everyone had arrived at time and then...
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...that sounds like an easy mistake to make.

Lets end the day at BOTH times!
Two days every day!
Every other day there is no work!

So after putting his foot down one last time the king declared, "Fine! Since Crow has clearly set upon you quarrels over this, I declare it divine will that both are to be at the centre of the temple!"

A shaman raised a hand and then asked, "Which one is bigger?"

The other shamans around that man slowly inched away as the king attempted to channel the fury of the gods through his eyeballs and smite the man via glare alone, before he ground out, "Crow is a bird, right? So he'll be smaller but above Fythhagyna."

There was a quiet moment as the shaman considered this before he said, "That sounds fair."
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Eyebeams!

Also I like that shaman. He sounds like one of us.

Based on this setup, I believe Fythhagyna will fuse into Crow over time, as people start to consider Crow as her divine animal and Fyhhagyna as the human avatar.

"Uhhh... which aspect of Crow?" Someone in the crowd asked.

"Will Fythhagyna have clothes, because if she does I find that offensive!" Someone else called out.

The king just sort of stared as a fresh bout of arguments broke out, before he just threw up his hands and started to walk away, glaring daggers at the Spirit Chief. After a moment of just walking and glaring he said, "You know what, my successor can figure this one out. The arrangement of the rest of the idols can be worked out from here, right?"
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The King decides that they should fight about this after he's dead. This is way more fun to watch if you're viewing by the side of the spirits than having to be responsible for all this shit.

"I know what the arguments about Crow are going to be, so tell me how the arguments about Fythhagyna are going to shake out. She's always just been a woman in a shift with a sickle and bundle of grain to me," the king asked as he lead the two of them out to a garden where they could sit and talk in relative peace. The two men exiting the building caused birds to take flight, but neither man caught the species and the potential omens of that.
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As we can see here, the Chiefs don't really deal much with Fythhagyna, as their concerns don't overlap at all.

Also to translate to more modern language, a shift is her underwear.
"Well... okay, we didn't realize how divergent things were in some places, but in essence there are a couple of competing ideas. To some she is more of a mother and they thus prefer that she be depicted pregnant and/or breastfeeding. To others she is seen of as being a bit older and wiser and is more of a matronly figure, not an elder but certainly not a young mother either, and depicting her as younger gets under some people's collars. Then there are some who see her as being more about the harvest while others see her more about fertility. The latter group are usually the ones who bring up not liking clothing as they see her as being closer to nature and they feel that depicting her with any more trappings of civilization than a sickle is an interference with her function. Those that seen her as being more matronly are the ones who get into fights with the nudity ones most often," the Spirit Chief explained.
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Mother
-Pregnant
-Visible breasts
-Visible child(inevitably deified)

Defines the most important female role as being pregnant and raising children.

Matron
-Clan leader.
-Mother Knows Best
-Traditionalist
-Women must be older to be a suitable matron, preferably with grown children of their own.

Defines the Older But Not Elderly Woman as a figure of respectability and responsibility.

Harvest
-Farm tools as regalia. Sickle, axes, plows, etc.
-Likely dressed as a farmer would, so in Sacred Forest it'd be likely forester's leathers(because anything lighter would be torn to shreds by trees and bushes, thus not farmer wear) with apron and medium length skirts, which were simple to make and move around in, as well as being practical when gathering fruits.

Defines the important part of nature as a resource. You take care of nature because this lets you get more stuff from it.

Fertility
-Dressed minimally and equipped minimally. Likely to have nature accents in her appearance, leaves, flowers and bark(the dryad look) should be common.
-Manifestation of the fertility of all, so the usual markers of female fertility(large chest, nice ass, muscular, but with ample body fat to show plenty rather than the leaner build of a warrior)...likely built like a JoJo female character then...

Defines the important part of nature as Nature itself. You take care of nature because it is the Right thing.
Broadest appeal overall, since it covers all three aspects.

The king had fortunately listened to the old stories of the hubris and kings and thus did not tempt Crow by asking aloud "What else could go wrong?" and was thus rewarded by the deployment of warriors cleaning up several gangs, found instances of corruption, and generally shaped things up.
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Heh. Wise king.

And the year after the decision on the central figure in the holy site was made, good strong rains came to the north and the rains in the south were less terrible. The northern provinces told the nomads this and while there were a few minor raids, that was to be expected, and the majority seemed to decide that if the grass was growing, the southerners were willing to trade, and the southerners retained large numbers of sharp objects, they were willing to leave things be for the time being.
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Highly persuasive to nomads. Natural selection is murdering every nomad who thinks they can take us.

Meanwhile a fresh pulse of refugees came in from the south, and mixed in among them was a copper worker from the Thunder Horse who had been brought along to help maintain their equipment, only to get left behind during a battle and nearly starved. He revealed the truth behind the stronger version of copper the Thunder Horse were using: it was copper, but if you introduced another ore into the metal when it was liquid it made the copper much harder and stronger. Too much and it would be brittle, too little and it would be closer to regular copper in strength.
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WINDFALL!

They don't even know we stole the tech. They think he's dead!
Also funny how we can loot battlefields without even going there.

There were a few other ores that could be used, legends told that the first versions were just like that when the copper was initially smelted, but the best and least toxic results that produced the dark brown metal harder than iron came from introducing dark crystals into the mix.
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And we have confirmation that the earlier thing was Arsenic Bronze, and we identified the Tin ore.

If we stay on Balanced I think the provinces are going to Survey for it. Bronze is just too useful.

Of course, when the People started working out how much of this material the Thunder Horse had, they realized that while bronze was better than iron, it wasn't so much better that the tiny supplies of tin available made bronze in any way a good choice for the People outside of perhaps some specialist tools or gear for the highest level elite warriors.
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Quantity has a quality of it's own after all.
Bronze being a cast metal does make for some tools being far easier to make. Forging a steel bell is a nightmare(and likely against public nuisance ordinances), but straightforward with bronze.

Still, a useful metal to have, and perhaps the same principle of adding something increasing strength applied to iron?
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Road to Steel unlocked. Mwahahaha.
 
pblur said:
Assuming we do:
[] [Secondary] Improve Festival
  • Enforce Justice -- gets golden age, gives 1 stat per turn, 1 innovation roll per turn, protects true city
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Imnprove Festival can only grant stability up to level two. Order of operations is determined by a random dice roll. If enforce justice occurs before improve festival, we'll end up at 2 stability not 3.
 
Guile said:
We're at 2, we Festival to get up to 3, then kick to bring us down to 2, then... doesn't the Canal give stability?
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Do a main festival so it's a double main, kick the temple? That... would actually work okay.

notgreat said:
I agree. But that's not what we as a civilization do. We don't let nature run free, we manage it. We carve steps into the hills to make our farms. We burn the trees to give them new growth. We do not let nature run free, we study it and improve it.

We are a civilization. Fertility is anti-civilization, for she is nature unchained.
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I guess, but I like her untamed, herself, not bound to our service in return to for being bound to our service.
 
[X] [Crow] Spider-Eyed
[X] [Fyth] Matron

[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Improve Annual Festival
[X] [Secondary] Expand Vineyard
 
Rakuhn said:
Imnprove Festival can only grant stability up to level two. Order of operations is determined by a random dice roll. If enforce justice occurs before improve festival, we'll end up at 2 stability not 3.
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No, WOG only a critfail would make this not work.
 
pblur said:
Our secondary options:
  • Expand Snail Cultivation -- goes 25-50% to 1 stat per turn
  • Expand Vineyard -- goes 25-50% to 1 stat per turn, protects true city
  • Saltern - Southshore Saltern -- goes 15% to 1 stat per turn in risk-free good.
  • Policy (Megaproject Support) -- allows us to blitz megaprojects using true city to recycle slots
  • Enforce Justice -- gets golden age, gives 1 stat per turn, 1 innovation roll per turn, protects true city
  • Study Forest -- gets a single innovation roll.
One of these things is not like the others.
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S Saltern puts us at 2/6: 33% to getting twice the amount of salt (i.e. ancient world money) as we currently have. Which also adds diplomacy thanks to the market.
 
Rakuhn said:
Imnprove Festival can only grant stability up to level two. Order of operations is determined by a random dice roll. If enforce justice occurs before improve festival, we'll end up at 2 stability not 3.
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See here.

Academia Nut said:
1.) Entire turn at stability 3
2.) It could, but I would only say that a crit fail on the roll would result in something so dickish
3.) The free switch will occur after a main turn decision if things aren't in place. Because of the Law, its not exactly "free" because it results in the same action economy, but basically if you get to a midterm with no actions available for the policy to work on, everyone will go "Should we change this?"
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Oh also @veekie. This line made me switch to fertility.

veekie said:
likely built like a JoJo female character then
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Heahhahahaha. Nice.

[X] [Crow] Spider-Eyed
[X] [Fyth] Fertility

[X][Main] Great Temple
[X][Secondary] Improve Annual Festival
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Jun 1, 2017 at 11:00 PM, finished with 45763 posts and 52 votes.
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Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Jun 1, 2017 at 11:01 PM, finished with 45766 posts and 52 votes.
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veekie said:
Saffron and Lapis Lazuli elsewhere,
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Err, when did we get these? I remember people originally thinking the "blue stone" that turned out to be our copper mine was Lapis, but i dont even remember mention of another dye other than that and the snails...
veekie said:
-Ymaryn - Interestingly, even a single silver mine was enough to take us to Moderate, suggesting that neither the Hathatyn nor the Metal Workers have particularly large silver mines
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veekie said:
-Ymaryn - Interestingly, even a single copper mine was enough to take us to Moderate, suggesting that neither the Hathatyn nor the Metal Workers have particularly large copper mines...or that they've been using up a chunk of their copper to make bronze, dropping their export supply.
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On both of these, i think its the iron tools giving us an edge in how much we can draw out
Rakuhn said:
Imnprove Festival can only grant stability up to level two. Order of operations is determined by a random dice roll. If enforce justice occurs before improve festival, we'll end up at 2 stability not 3.
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At least with the "what if we take a negative stab and a positive stab while at 3 stab" scenario, it'd take a crit fail on admin to lose the stab due to the cap. This sounds like it should be the same thing...though i would certainly prefer a confirmation from @Academia Nut one way or the other :p

Still, for now at least:

[X] [Crow] Spider-Eyed
[X] [Fyth] Matron
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Improve Annual Festival
[X][Secondary] Enforce Justice
 
Guile said:
S Saltern puts us at 2/6: 33% to getting twice the amount of salt (i.e. ancient world money) as we currently have. Which also adds diplomacy thanks to the market.
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Oh. Right, we have a legacy from rushing a megaproject back when. I'll edit fix.

We should really do that again some time.
 
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notgreat said:
I agree. But that's not what we as a civilization do. We don't let nature run free, we manage it. We carve steps into the hills to make our farms. We burn the trees to give them new growth. We do not let nature run free, we study it and improve it.

We are a civilization. Fertility is anti-civilization, for she is nature unchained.
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We are Divine Stewards. We decided what nature is like. She is free and beautiful!
veekie said:
Technology discovered: Schadenfreude
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Bemused means unamused, so not really
 
Eh, veekie's convinced me.

[X] [Crow] Spider-Eyed
[X] [Fyth] Fertility
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Improve Annual Festival
[X] [Secondary] Improve Annual Festival x2

Personally, I'm not sure whether to go with "Harvest" or "Fertility" for Fyth from a purely mechanical perspective, but fertility has nekkid goddess, so it's obviously better from a fluff perspective.

As for the Double Mained Festival, I'm honestly not too worried about it. If it wins, great. If it doesn't, I'm not going to complain if one of the other winning options takes over a Secondary Slot. Still, I hope that making a big festival might get our shamans to calm down a bit and stop slapping each other over whether or not the goddess should be wearing underwear.
 
Tallllllyyyy!

Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 1820 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.9.1
Task: secondary
[34][Secondary] Improve Annual Festival
[18][Secondary] Study Forests
[7][secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[6][Secondary] Improve Festival
[4][Secondary] Improve Annual Festival x2
[4][Secondary] Study Metal
[4][Secondary] Enforce Justice
[3][Secondary] Expand Snail Cultivation
[2][Secondary] Found Trading Post - Greenshore River Mouth
[2][Secondary] Found Trading Post - Greenshore River Mouth x2
[2][Secondary] Build Docks
[2][Secondary] Saltern - Southshore Saltern
[2][Secondary] Expand Vineyard
[1][secondary] Saltern - Southshore Saltern (0/6)
[1][Secondary] Expand Forests
[1][Secondary] Expand Vineyard x2
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Crow
[41][Crow] Spider-Eyed
[7][Crow] Teacher
[2][Crow] Spirder-Eyed
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Fyth
[20][Fyth] Fertility
[18][Fyth] Harvest
[9][Fyth] Matron
[4][Fyth] Mother
——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Main
[44][Main] Great Temple
[1][Main] Improve Festival
Total No. of Voters: 52
 
So here's something interesting I found when going through the archives:

Academia Nut said:
The original nega-SV lowlanders:

NSV: "Okay, so if we use Restore Order we get +1 Econ every time, and all it does is chew up Centralization, which we don't care about because lower centralization means that people auto-settle faster?"

QM: "That is correct."

NSV: "And because of our political make-up, we can raid ourselves for extra econ and the chance to disrupt our stability further, which means that we can keep using Restore Order because it only goes up to 0?"

NSV: "That is correct."

*hits Restore Order and Raid buttons like mad*

*drought hits*

NSV: "So glad we have like 10 Econ."

QM: "So you know, I add your Centralization score to the Econ penalty from natural disasters like drought or plague, and since yours is currently holy shit negative..."

NSV: ihavemadeahugemistake.png

QM: "Yes, yes, the salt must flow."
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What I find VERY interesting here is how Centralization works with natural disasters. "So you know, I add your Centralization score to the Econ penalty from natural disasters like drought or plague". Technically this is the Negaverse QM talking, but presumably we have the same mechanics. While I knew that Centralization helped with droughts and plagues and the like, I didn't realize how MUCH it helped. Main Roads just jumped up my priority list...along with God knows how many other things...
 
So like Imma just gonna lay it out for funnies but if six people switched from Study Forests to Enforce Justice, Enforce would be in the lead and we can hit a Golden Age, where all of our Study actions are Moar Betta. :p
 
Candesce said:
and Symphony providing a third.
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We have never seen Symphony provide actions on a single [Main]. We needed triple [Main] last time.
Compare that to the benefits we expect from a Golden Age along with not needing to take our province's action...

As to the [Fyth] vote...
Academia Nut said:
"Will Fythhagyna have clothes, because if she does I find that offensive!"
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When the reason people are voting is because they want to move the quest over to QQ, I don't really think I can argue against that.
 
[X] [Crow] Spider-Eyed
[X] [Fyth] Fertility
[X] [Main] Great Temple
[X] [Secondary] Improve Annual Festival
[X] [Secondary] Study Forests

Alright, so Festivals are super effective this turn and there's a decent vote building to finally study the TREES!

Guys if Study Forests actually wins I need to figure out a way to make everyone in this thread cookies.
 
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