Voting is open
  1. Creates a probably-invisible, tiny chakra construct that immediately dissipates.
  2. Creates a chakra construct that intakes a huge amount of environmental chakra, then slowly dissipates.
  3. Another chakra construct. This one holds the environmental chakra in it for a few minutes before dissipating.
  4. Another chakra construct. This one interacts with the environment around it in some unknown way.
  5. The same chakra construct as above, except the interactions are displayed on the seal. Kagome thinks there are similarities with his chakrascope seal.
I wonder if the 5th seal on the jinchuuriki chain can serve as a starting point for a seal debugger seal. Instead of creating a chakra construct to do (???) it creates a chakra-construct that fake-infuses a blank and lets the sealmaster know if there are any mistakes. Call it the Gouketsu Discoverer of Blunders, or gdb for short
 
The last is easy, there's liquid at all, it's at the boiling point of liquid N2/O2.

Your other questions are a little hard to parse. Are you asking how fast the flood propagates? When it reaches 12 miles it's in a steady state where the liquid is evaporating as fast as the EM effect is making more.

I imagine the liquid air is quite deep (tens of meters) at the epicenter and much shallower toward the edges.
For a first estimate, trying to figure out a roof. Without evaporation, uniform height. How high would a 12 mile radius puddle reach? A meter? A millimeter?

Smart insight with the steady state. If it moves at the speed of a normal flood, it would take 2 hours to go 12 miles. So 2 hours to evaporate? Or if it goes at a different speed, if you can find the time to evaporation you can find the time to it takes to reach the edge. Is it right that if it warms a few degrees to evaporate, it roughly cools the air around it be a few degrees? Curious how much air is cooled how much how quickly.
I liked the "rapport" idea and list, and reaction posts are always appreciated. You may both take +1 XP to a PC of your choice, chosen by 1d4 if you don't pick within 24 hours.

As a general note, as an author it's irritating when an NPC solves an interesting, hard problem for Hazou, but if the NPC is actually able to solve the problem, then our commitment to simulationism will usually win out and the problem will be solved. That said, others have pointed out some potential flaws in Kei's suggestions... I suppose we'll never know what might have happened.
Someone else claimed the reaction post XP for that chapter. In the spirit of giving, if this time is an exception please send it to Noburi. Mist version of Santa should be Wakahisa handing out fish from their barrels. Good kids get unagi and bad kids get fugu.
IIRC the problem seemed to be that there is another discipline mixed in. Probably medicine considering it's a bioseal, didn't the notes mention "headseal" or something similar, after all? So we'll probably need to consult Tsunade once we reach 9th and 10th.
Spelling error.
Minor QM oversight -- 'handseal' here previously said 'headseal'. Typo corrected.
There was jargon Kagome did not recognize for seals deeper in the chain. Makes sense to scrub it of context, mix in fake jargon and run it by tech hackers to see what they make of it.
 
For a first estimate, trying to figure out a roof. Without evaporation, uniform height. How high would a 12 mile radius puddle reach? A meter? A millimeter
It's not a constant height, it's much deeper in the middle than towards the edge. Trying to model this without evaporation is kinda pointless IMO, that's just what it's doing.

My model is that the puddle loses depth constantly to evaporation and just by spreading out over a 12 mile range, by the time it gets to the end its a maybe 1 mm deep and it's maybe 50m deep at the center.

Depth is probably a power law distribution, like every other physical effect in the universe /s
Smart insight with the steady state. If it moves at the speed of a normal flood, it would take 2 hours to go 12 miles. So 2 hours to evaporate? Or if it goes at a different speed, if you can find the time to evaporation you can find the time to it takes to reach the edge. Is it right that if it warms a few degrees to evaporate, it roughly cools the air around it be a few degrees? Curious how much air is cooled how much how quickly.
I imagine it floods pretty goddamn fast, there's a tremendous amount of pressure at the nuke end. Just pulling a number out of my ass, I'd say 15 min at the most. But it floods the center area much much faster. Tje flood slows down a lot as it spreads out, since it has to cool down a lot more ground. Not sure where you're getting your "speed of a normal flood" but that's almost certainly from something like a a flash flood, I'd say this situation is more similar to a dam bursting. There's a physics stack exchange about it you can read if you're interested. Caveat liquid air is emphatically not liquid water and that evaporation is a major asterisk on this. Once the ground is cooled it's probably fine to model them the same, but I definitely wouldn't.

As to the mechanics of heat transfer. I can work it out for you.
 
Is it right that if it warms a few degrees to evaporate, it roughly cools the air around it be a few degrees? Curious how much air is cooled how much how quickly.
The short answer to this is yes, but it's a lot more than a few. The long answer is that the question as stated misses an important point. When 1 kg of liquid air warms one degree it cools 1 kg of gaseous air 1 degree, that much is true, the heat is conserved. However, when a substance boils (or condenses) it absorbs (or releases) a large amount of heat. This quantity is known as Heat (Enthalpy) of Vaporization.

For air, I'll model it as having a heat of vaporization intermediate both oxygen and nitrogen, specifically 80% N2 + 20% O2. This is a pretty rough calculation so it shouldn't matter too much. A quick google search says 6.82 kJ/mol for O2 and 5.6 kg/mol for N2, so our value for air is 5.844 kJ/mol. Fine, how much does a mol of air weigh? I'll continue with the 80%/20% model and I get 28.81 g/mol. To boil 1 kg of air we need 202.85 kJ of energy.

The last piece of the puzzle is relating that energy to a change in temperature of air, this is done by using the specific heat capacity. Expressed as kJ/Kkg it is the amount of heat it takes to raise the temp of 1 kg of a substance 1 kelvin (Celsius). Air has a specific heat capacity of 1.005 kJ/Kkg (at constant pressure, which is the case here and I don't want to make this any longer) so boiling 1 kg of air will lower the temp of 201.84 kg of air 1 degree C or 1 kg of air 201.84 degrees C

As an aside this also tells us that we'd get 1.005 kJ of energy for changing the temp of the liquid air 1 degree, so you can see that there's a huge energy cost for boiling compared to changing the temp, in this case ~200x vs. raising the temp 1 degree.

The last thing I want to note is that a liquid kg of air occupies approximately 1.15 L, whereas (at ambient conditions) 1 kg of gaseous air occupies 820 L of volume. A 713x fold increase. Boiling just 1 kg of liquid air can affect huge volumes of space.

Note that this is all thermodynamics and doesn't really speak to how fast things are happening. However, the energies involved are large enough that this is going to be pretty fucking fast. I'm not even going to try to calculate it since there are just too many unknowns, but a lake (or even a pond) of liquid air is nothing to sneeze at.
 
Last edited:
It's not a constant height, it's much deeper in the middle than towards the edge. Trying to model this without evaporation is kinda pointless IMO, that's just what it's doing.

My model is that the puddle loses depth constantly to evaporation and just by spreading out over a 12 mile range, by the time it gets to the end its a maybe 1 mm deep and it's maybe 50m deep at the center.

Depth is probably a power law distribution, like every other physical effect in the universe /s
Seeing one estimate that 40,000 olympic pools of liquid air are produced by an EM nuke. Does this seem right? Same post says that would make a 7 centimeter, 12 mile radius disc. How would power law change the distribution?

As an aside this also tells us that we'd get 1.005 kJ of energy for changing the temp of the liquid air 1 degree, so you can see that there's a huge energy cost for boiling compared to changing the temp, in this case ~200x vs. raising the temp 1 degree.
The last thing I want to note is that a liquid kg of air occupies approximately 1.15 L, whereas (at ambient conditions) 1 kg of gaseous air occupies 820 L of volume. A 713x fold increase. Boiling just 1 kg of liquid air can affect huge volumes of space.
7 cm x 200 x 820 is a 10 kilometer, 12 mile radius column of air getting cooled.
I imagine it floods pretty goddamn fast, there's a tremendous amount of pressure at the nuke end. Just pulling a number out of my ass, I'd say 15 min at the most. But it floods the center area much much faster. Tje flood slows down a lot as it spreads out, since it has to cool down a lot more ground. Not sure where you're getting your "speed of a normal flood" but that's almost certainly from something like a a flash flood, I'd say this situation is more similar to a dam bursting. There's a physics stack exchange about it you can read if you're interested. Caveat liquid air is emphatically not liquid water and that evaporation is a major asterisk on this. Once the ground is cooled it's probably fine to model them the same, but I definitely wouldn't.
Twelve miles in fifteen minutes is 60 miles an hour. The water in the stack exchange slows down more because it travels longer than twelve miles, but they get 2.5 kilometers an hour over 120 kilometers? It is like a dam bursting, but bursting in every direction and one zone is small compared to a dam. Winds are faster than 60 but spiral out from the eye. Slowed by not going in straight line.
As to the mechanics of heat transfer. I can work it out for you.
This would be is super fucking impressive.
 
Last edited:
Seeing one estimate that 40,000 olympic pools of liquid air are produced by an EM nuke. Does this seem right? Same post says that would make a 7 centimeter, 12 mile radius disc. How would power law change the distribution?
Power law distributions look like this. Stolen directly from wikipedia, but imagine that is a plot of depth vs distance from the center. Also if I remember right, it's 40,000 olympic swimming pools over the duration of the effect (6 hrs). So the amount of liquid air in existence at one time is much smaller, b/c of evaporative loss.
Twelve miles in fifteen minutes is 60 miles an hour. The water in the stack exchange slows down more because it travels longer than twelve miles, but they get 2.5 kilometers an hour over 120 kilometers? It is like a dam bursting, but bursting in every direction and one zone is small compared to a dam. Winds are faster than 60 but spiral out from the eye. Slowed by not going in straight line.
I honestly don't know how fast it goes, but I would not expect it to take hours to get to the full radius and I would expect miles 0-4 to get destroyed in the first minute or two. However 50 m (the proposed size of the affected Zone) is about 1/3 the height of major dams, so it's not too too out of line. My main takeaway from that thread is that you'd have to blow up a dam to find out for real.
This would be is super fucking impressive.
Strictly second semester undergraduate chemistry.
 
Last edited:
...this doesn't make sense fitting between chapters 33 and 34 in the threadmarks. Noburi definitely doesn't have a wife at this point.
Oh my god, that's fucking hilarious. Can you reconstruct your mental state as you were reading it? What did you think was going on? What do you think is going on, here and now hundreds of chapters ahead of where you're at, for that interlude to make sense?

Don't spoil yourself, obviously, but I'm incredibly curious.
 
Oh my god, that's fucking hilarious. Can you reconstruct your mental state as you were reading it? What did you think was going on? What do you think is going on, here and now hundreds of chapters ahead of where you're at, for that interlude to make sense?

Don't spoil yourself, obviously, but I'm incredibly curious.

Well, I'm now at Chapter 50, but I'll try.

Last chapter was the gang looking for the summoning scroll. Then I start reading about Toad Summoning, which, what? Jiraiya isn't that friendly. Also, he's married? Yuno? Is she a yandere? This doesn't seem right... Stopped reading there, so I can't really speculate much other than assuming we've allied with Leaf.

Now at 50 we've spent a long time in Tapirtown (Tapirs are enemies of the Pangolins, that's sus af) and Kei badassed her way into a contract, so that's neat.
 
Well, I'm now at Chapter 50, but I'll try.

Last chapter was the gang looking for the summoning scroll. Then I start reading about Toad Summoning, which, what? Jiraiya isn't that friendly. Also, he's married? Yuno? Is she a yandere? This doesn't seem right... Stopped reading there, so I can't really speculate much other than assuming we've allied with Leaf.

Now at 50 we've spent a long time in Tapirtown (Tapirs are enemies of the Pangolins, that's sus af) and Kei badassed her way into a contract, so that's neat.
Very sorry about that. No idea how it happened, but it should be fixed now. For the record, that was originally posted as a non-canon interlude that had been commissioned by one of the players.
 
IIRC the primary roll was in the low 90s. There was another roll for the number of secondary failures, then one roll for each of the secondaries. With that many sealing failures, it shouldn't be much of a surprise that there's some really awful stuff

It feels like there just shouldn't be any Elemental Nations, or humans, or maybe even continents in this universe with sealing failures like this.

I'll admit, they kinda break my suspension of disbelief.

If sealing failures were just large explosions then the world would look mostly the same, most ninjas can't react fast enough to escape the seal they're holding blowing up, so sealing failures would still frequently be fatal to the sealmaster. Leaf would have a disproportionately high number of really good sealmasters because Shadow Clones functionally eliminate that risk, but the number of sealmasters with enough other skill to master and use Shadow Clones would be rare - see the Fourth and Fifth Hokages and Orochimaru, and now Hazou.
 
It feels like there just shouldn't be any Elemental Nations, or humans, or maybe even continents in this universe with sealing failures like this.

I'll admit, they kinda break my suspension of disbelief.

If sealing failures were just large explosions then the world would look mostly the same, most ninjas can't react fast enough to escape the seal they're holding blowing up, so sealing failures would still frequently be fatal to the sealmaster. Leaf would have a disproportionately high number of really good sealmasters because Shadow Clones functionally eliminate that risk, but the number of sealmasters with enough other skill to master and use Shadow Clones would be rare - see the Fourth and Fifth Hokages and Orochimaru, and now Hazou.
In-universe, iirc very few sealsmiths make it to where big failures tend to happen (they die before). And very few of those who make it there take a risk (they stick to known designs of explosives and storage). And then most who try that work in designed areas, far from non-sealmasters. Picture the last failure happening, from someone who only has a few dozen storage seals, and separated from the rest of society. The last failure happening to Kagome in the wild. The little balls would probably what, dry up or dissolve or whatever before they touched anyone else. Worst-case scenario, the small village nearby would disappear. There are empty villages everywhere, what's one or two more?
 
i don't think seal failure are worse for experience sealmasters. so if sealsmiths dies, that's from seal failures, which are just as likely for them to be a big bad thing.
 
i don't think seal failure are worse for experience sealmasters. so if sealsmiths dies, that's from seal failures, which are just as likely for them to be a big bad thing.
He looked back to Mari-sensei. "Point is, Hazō has been dealing with stuff that's hard to screw up, so it's not surprising that most of the screw-ups have been fairly tame. Once you start getting into more esoteric research that isn't the case anymore."
From way back (campfire stories with Jiraiya). Fluffside at least, I'm not clear on crunch, well-understood "easy" seals tend to be mostly fine when they fail and only rarely very bad. Esoteric research, harder things, get you with semi-sapient broccoli on your face or smiling oddly or turn your skin inside out or make OliWhail a QM
 
Last edited:
This was Jinno, a somewhat new sealmaster, he wasn't very far along in sealmastery relatively speaking
And he did kinda pick a challenging research topic. Hazou stuck to storage seal variants for a while when he was new, Jinno went straight for the stuff that could change the world (civilians would be able to use Heat-Activated Seals).
 
This was Jinno, a somewhat new sealmaster, he wasn't very far along in sealmastery relatively speaking
Well he decided to do something complicated and it only got so bad because when his (abnormally many) seals suffered a bad case of not-existing-any-more they bisected (abnormally) large amounts of other dimensional seals in a weird fashion. In the future we may consider more careful placement of storage seals for seal banks and food, without mixing different sealmasters' products too much for instance.
 
From what we've been told in the past, I don't think the difficulty of the seal matters for the severity of the failure, in general. That's part of the scariness of the field, even the simplest seals can just fuck everything. The only times we've been indicated that certain failures were above average in strength were the Minato seals and a hypothetical Great Seal failure, in both cases presumably because they house more chakra than a paper seal does.

Learning a simple storage seal variant still summoned blade monsters that could've potentially ended the world if they kept coming through, botched skywalkers nearly annihilated Leaf, etc. There's a reason Rock moved all their research aboveground.

In the future we may consider more careful placement of storage seals for seal banks and food, without mixing different sealmasters' products too much for instance.
I don't think it's that atypical for a sealmaster to be around multiple other seals while researching. I'd be shocked they weren't, if anything. And most sealmasters aren't nearly as paranoid and cautious as Kagome, who himself still keeps his seals on hand to deal with failures. I think the more likely explanation is that failures that affect other existing seals are just very rare.
 
From what we've been told in the past, I don't think the difficulty of the seal matters for the severity of the failure, in general. That's part of the scariness of the field, even the simplest seals can just fuck everything. The only times we've been indicated that certain failures were above average in strength were the Minato seals and a hypothetical Great Seal failure, in both cases presumably because they house more chakra than a paper seal does.

Learning a simple storage seal variant still summoned blade monsters that could've potentially ended the world if they kept coming through, botched skywalkers nearly annihilated Leaf, etc. There's a reason Rock moved all their research aboveground.
Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to say that "Jinno was researching a complicated seal, which means that the failure was bound to be complicated, too."

I meant to say that "Jinno, a relatively new sealmaster, tackled a research project with a high TN that almost certainly outstripped his still-neophyte sealing abilities, thus making the prospect of a sealing failure an almost certainty."

Though I'll also concede that not every sealmaster is as paranoid about safety as Kagome or (for the most part) Hazou, and that the "standard" Kagome precautions of a Kagome-approved sealing research facility (which is so stringent that it actually adds a taggable Aspect to the roll) may have given Jinno enough confidence to tackle something that he may have perceived as "merely" a challenging project.
 
From what we've been told in the past, I don't think the difficulty of the seal matters for the severity of the failure, in general
I mean, Jiraiya said the opposite. I can't think of any time we have been told what you say, but of course, memory faulty etc. Do you have a quote or a source or something?

Learning a simple storage seal variant still summoned blade monsters that could've potentially ended the world if they kept coming through, botched skywalkers nearly annihilated Leaf
Skywalkers are quite a lot more complex than storage seals, though, are they not?

I don't think it's that atypical for a sealmaster to be around multiple other seals while researching. I'd be shocked they weren't, if anything. And most sealmasters aren't nearly as paranoid and cautious as Kagome, who himself still keeps his seals on hand to deal with failures. I think the more likely explanation is that failures that affect other existing seals are just very rare.
It's not a matter of being around other seals while researching, it's about your seals stacking with *loads* of other seals. Kagome's lonely experience and forest training translates to "if something bad happens, he's probably dead. If he's not dead yet, having no seals is worse than having seals. If Jinno's failure had bisected a seal that was on Kagome, he'd already have been dead anyway.
Failures that affect other seals far away are probably rare. Flashy failures causing more effects when they physically touch other seals? Probably not as much.
 
I mean, Jiraiya said the opposite. I can't think of any time we have been told what you say, but of course, memory faulty etc. Do you have a quote or a source or something?
When was this? I can dig around a bit but that honestly sounds more tedious than fun


Skywalkers are quite a lot more complex than storage seals, though, are they not?
Yes but that doesn't really matter for my point? My point is both were very potent/dangerous failures despite being closer to beginner territory than jonin territory. A baby-easy seal still presented an apocalyptic threat, and a seal that Hazou learned in about a day with chuunin Sealing skills also nearly destroyed Leaf.


It's not a matter of being around other seals while researching, it's about your seals stacking with *loads* of other seals.
We all carry literally hundreds of seals at any given time


Jinno's failure had bisected a seal that was on Kagome, he'd already have been dead anyway.
Sealmasters still actively try to prevent the failures from getting worse or harming other people even if they themselves are fucked so I don't think this particular argument really holds up
 
Jiraiya rolled his eyes. "Fine," he said, "let me tell you about the kind of people I worked with back when I was studying in Leaf's sealcrafting facilities—the world's best, mind you, staffed with the elite of the elite. Our janitors knew more about sealcrafting than some of the experts in the other villages." Kagome gave another "hmph", but Jiraiya ignored him.

"The elite of the elite," he repeated. "And if you wanted to live long enough to get promoted, you had to pay attention to every tiniest detail of what they told you. For example..."

Jiraiya shifted into a more comfortable sitting position.

"When I was a new recruit still getting my feet wet," he began, "I was taken on the standard tour of the Hall of Candles. They showed us each sealmaster's candle and the inscription underneath it—their name, their date of death, what they'd done wrong and what happened to them as a result. Your typical apprentice couldn't sleep for a week straight after that, longer if they had a good imagination. Put you in the right frame of mind.
we never did visit leaf's seal academy. wonder what they have to offer.

And he did kinda pick a challenging research topic. Hazou stuck to storage seal variants for a while when he was new, Jinno went straight for the stuff that could change the world (civilians would be able to use Heat-Activated Seals).
isn't a heat activated storage seal still a storage seal variant?
 
Voting is open
Back
Top