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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Sir Stompy said:
How on earth was Jiraiya Summoning both of them then? He would need 130 CR

Or Sage Mode, he must have been using Sage Mode. But I thought he needed both of them to use it.
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The only explanation that makes sense to me is that he summoned one of them and regenerated via Sage Mode to Summon the other. But then why not just keep summoning more guys after that? Would've been handy at like BOTG for example.
 
Orochimaru was his teammate for years/decades. What if Jiraiya has artificially expanded chakra coils that grand him a larger chakra pool? There's precedent set for with with that one Akimichi jutsu, arugably enough. Orochimaru could've seen it in action (or, at least, the end results), and tinkered up a bioseal version for his own use.
 
faflec said:
Are Ma and Pa willing to offer Naruto training again as per their agreement with Jiraiya?
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eaglejarl said:
"First, don't call it that around Ma and Pa if you want to live," Naruto said seriously. "Second, yes. Not at a master level, but I'm getting there. Granted, my training got interrupted by this whole kidnapping, torture, and near world-destruction thing, and now I can't continue because Unc isn't around to teach me or to summon the Sages anymore." He glanced sourly at Noburi.

The young man in question shrugged. "I...might be able to. Dunno. It depends on how strong they are and whether or not they're willing to contract with me."

"They're massively strong and they're proud," Naruto said. "They're not going to want to be summoned by 'some whippersnapper.'" His voice dropped into a nearly perfect copy of Fukasaku's grumpiness.

"I could tell them it's to visit you...? And make it a one-time thing, or promise not to summon them into combat."

"Hmm. Maybe? If you phrased it carefully they'd probably go along or else be more amused and dismissive than angry. I think."

Noburi looked vaguely nervous at the idea of even potentially angering the two Sages.
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(For reference)
 
So, re: Necromancy, we should, of course, create an itemized list of things for us to address before our next meeting with Kei.

I don't have the time/spoons right now, but it'd be good to get started on that.
 
You know, Noburi summoning boss-tier summons is another good OPSEC cover for why we need so much chakra considering he's popping 3600+ chakra any time he wants to bring them both out...
 
Cariyaga said:
So, re: Necromancy, we should, of course, create an itemized list of things for us to address before our next meeting with Kei.

I don't have the time/spoons right now, but it'd be good to get started on that.
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I'd personally like to see another ritual again. Involving Kei would be a must, of course. Think I'd also like to involve the rest of Goketsu ninja as well. Peering into the afterlife to look for all the deceased Goketsu would be the cherry on top.

Would love an update devoted to that.
 
Orisha91 said:
I'd personally like to see another ritual again. Involving Kei would be a must, of course. Think I'd also like to involve the rest of Goketsu ninja as well. Peering into the afterlife to look for all the deceased Goketsu would be the cherry on top.

Would love an update devoted to that.

Alright, time to sift through the grain of pessimism to draw forth the insight Kei grants us.
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I don't expect that to go near as well this time. Jashin's not about repetition, after all.
Velorien said:
"What kind of issues?" Kei echoed. "Oh, how I have waited to deliver this rant, hoping for a time when there would be the tiniest chance you would listen, even as I prayed you would abandon your project and spare us all so it was never necessary. Hazō, there is not one single level other than the strictly personal on which resurrecting Jiraiya would not be a catastrophe far beyond your power to cope with.

"Allow me to first set aside the first and most obvious category of unknown unknowns with which I am less qualified to deal. Let us assume that the rift ever led to the afterlife, and will once more lead to the afterlife when reopened. Let us assume the other side does not contain monsters, powerful chakra beasts, inimical supernatural beings, or other threats of that order which could invade the Human Path. For that matter, we should include alien disease spirits against which we have no protective rituals, invasive plant or animal species that can alter the natural world on which we depend for our survival, and poisons which may spread from the island site by air or sea. Let us assume that the unprecedented act of manually wrenching a closed rift open does not harm the fabric of the Human Path or the afterlife in any way, and nor does forcibly stabilising that rift for an extended period of time—an element central to your research, I trust, since there is no guarantee that if the rift closes again with you on the other side, the same means will be efficacious in opening it a third time. Let us assume, finally, that Jiraiya is there, that it is possible to find him before he moves on despite a total lack of information on his location or the geography of the afterlife, that he is both able and willing to seek return, and that a deceased person will become alive again upon re-entering the Human Path (as opposed to, say, being forcibly returned to the Pure Land or having their soul disintegrate). Finally, let us assume that you encounter him and not, say, Captain Zabuza, or any other force that will compel you to surrender the rift's secrets so they may take control of their own and their allies' resurrection. In short, let us assume that the rift and the other side will function in exact accordance with your wishes and expectations, as matters in life ever do.
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Setting aside her initial paragraph -- which we shouldn't, we should absolutely prepare on that front too, but that's not the point of this exercise (and preparing for violence is a specialty of ours, anyway.):

"This granted, allow me to treat the various types of failure mode as independent, although, of course, they will be simultaneous and the second-order effects of their interplay will be complex and staggering. First, for the Gōketsu. Jiraiya would, naturally, take control as clan lord. Your rule has been mixed, shall we say, while he is a veteran statesman with a decades-long record of success. He would not be so irresponsible as to leave his people's welfare in the hands of a junior, much less place his vast power directly under your control. You would naturally lose all the agency to which you have grown accustomed, your role reduced to advisory and executive after the fashion of Noburi or myself, and I may remind you that Jiraiya was not of Uplift. He was coming to express an interest in it, in terms of benefiting Leaf by better leveraging its civilians, but he was ultimately a man in his fifties who had spent his life in a Leaf prospering under the Third's stable, moderate regime. He did not propose or conduct any bold social experiments then, and the KEI is as much his legacy as anyone's, insofar as he did not lift a finger to save his clanless brethren, for all his power and influence. I have power now, Hazō, if complex and qualified, and it leads me to respect Jiraiya less and less as I come to comprehend just how much he could have accomplished with his and did not.

"Even as I acknowledge that Jiraiya displayed some openness to new ideas, the institution of till'n'fills being his finest hour, the fact remains that the Gōketsu's Uplift drive would attenuate by orders of magnitude were he to replace you as its autocratic leader.

"Let us take a step outwards. A fierce power struggle would naturally ensue over the Hokage's seat, Jiraiya only ever having taken it in order to rescue Naruto and doubtless ecstatic to be freed of the burden, and the Seventh seeing an opportunity to transfer a duty he never pursued and likely does not feel himself equal to onto the shoulders of a much more qualified superior.

"I imagine Jiraiya would emerge victorious, with his superior skill and vastly superior experience, as well as the existing precedent of the older Hokage stepping aside for the younger. I hope you did not possess any fantasies of a loyal Hokage in office. Beyond that, Jiraiya would certainly be a grand political asset, and your odds of execution would decrease considerably, but I suspect he would wish to avoid overshadowing his mentor's son's rule, so long as that rule remained to Leaf's benefit. To repeat the comparison, he did not rule from the shadows when his own apprentice became Hokage.

"Speaking of the Hokage... I hope you appreciate that your control of the rift would last only until the first expeditionary team encountered the first human. If the rift is proved as a potential source of 'new' Leaf shinobi, or shinobi willing to be recruited to Leaf's banner, it must be under the Hokage's direct control. If it is a potential source of hostile shinobi, Kage-level at worst, it must certainly be under the Hokage's direct control. If there are other parties with whom Leaf may negotiate for advantage in an unknown world, again, you are not the person to whose judgement such weighty matters should be entrusted. I assume that from that point, any exploration would be conducted by the most trusted, competent, and, of course, discreet shinobi available to the Hokage, while you would be expected to return to your own specialisations, such as research and development.

"Meanwhile, once the existence of the rift became known to the clan heads, as it would need to be with Jiraiya's return and the regular recruitment of their members for expeditions, there would be a competition of unprecedented ferocity over who should be rescued next—for obviously Leaf's expeditionary resources are limited, and traffic to and from the site needs to be limited also. Every clan head would demand that their fallen take priority, and exert the full extent of their influence to ensure that their parents and siblings, their heroes and their masters capable of expanding the clan's temporal power, come first. Or do you believe you are the only one willing to cross lines and embrace extremes to resurrect a loved one? Needless to say, I intend to participate fully in this competition, for Leaf's clanless deserve a second life no less than anyone else—arguably more, since their first lives would on average have been shorter and worse—while the Gōketsu would be all but irrelevant with no more prominent figures of their own to rescue. The damage to Leaf's unity and stability would be... honestly, beyond my power to estimate.

"Now, let us expand our scope again to consider events in the outside world as Leaf tears itself apart. It would be impractical, realistically unviable, and counter-productive for Leaf to attempt to conceal Jiraiya's return. Much of his value is as a diplomat and as a military deterrent. Nor would it be plausible to pretend he was alive from the beginning, between the survivors' testimonies, his absence during Leaf's recent crises, and the fact that there was no conceivable reason to keep his survival secret even from the Tower's own shinobi.

"As soon as Leaf's capability for resurrection was discovered, even if Leaf itself claimed it could not be replicated, it would be swarmed with spies and with demands for explanation. Every other nation would be terrified of Leaf resurrecting more Hokage, and rightly so, I regret to say. Do you believe the existence of the rift could be concealed for long, considering that Akatsuki were present when it first opened, that it would be the focus of the greatest political struggle in Leaf's history, and that it lies far closer to Mist than to Leaf?

"The AMITY nations would naturally demand that the rift be given into common keeping as Pain's seal was, and for the same reasons. I note in passing that this would technically place it under Ami's control, since it is she who administers AMITY matters not under the purview of any given member. Alas, I do not believe this final saving throw would ever be rolled, as no Hokage or potential Hokage we know would consider surrendering the rift. The possibility of it falling into enemy hands is an existential threat, and any hands may become enemy hands when they face the temptation of conquering the world with an inexhaustible supply of loyal demigods.

"I need not belabour the point from there. The most realistic scenario is that Akatsuki would claim the rift, formally on behalf of AMITY should they desire that fig leaf, and test if Leaf can defend it in the distant land of O'Uzu. They are already aware of it, and we only assume that they have not been researching it themselves. Once it is brought to their attention that it can be used to resurrect Pain, to whom they were fanatically, and, per your speculations, in some cases romantically devoted, no power on this Path will stop them. And if you are capable of finding and retrieving Jiraiya, they are certainly capable of finding and retrieving Pain.

"I trust I do not need to explain how a returned Pain, together with control of the rift, would leave the rest of humanity at their mercy. Among other considerations, I invite you to contemplate the image of Pain sacrificing himself to resurrect any Akatsuki members we are somehow able to defeat, then strolling blithely back out of the afterlife without assistance now that the rift is open and he knows the way.

"This is still arguably the best scenario, for Akatsuki claim world peace as their objective. The alternative is for AMITY to collapse, as pre-emptive elimination of a member state due to potential threat makes mockery of its very concept. That collapse, of course, would take the form of Leaf's destruction. Needless to say, the man with the ability to manipulate the rift would share its fate—destroyed if its new masters choose to destroy it, or enslaved if they wish it under their sole control—together with any associates who might have been inducted into the same secrets, or might be needed to provide leverage in the event of resistance.

"Accuse me of pessimism if you wish, but I cannot believe that, with the rift taken from Leaf by force, the remaining villages would come to a reasonable agreement as to its ownership and use. Ami could certainly arrange it, but even assuming she survived Leaf's destruction, with AMITY failed, I doubt she would possess the credibility and influence. No, I consider it much more likely that they would return to form, and war over this precious resource until it was either destroyed or claimed by a single definitive winner. There is little point in speculating beyond that, except to say that the kind of village that would successfully trample all others for the sake of power is unlikely to then use that power in an Uplift-friendly way.

"These are the key points which capture my imagination, Hazō. If you desire others, Shikamaru and I have a bulging folder. If I may be frank, your assertion that research is proceeding smoothly terrifies me. Still, you have come to me to seek advice, and therein lies a seed of hope that you will give these issues serious consideration, and refrain from triggering this possible apocalypse until you find solutions that satisfy you and, with my aid, polish them into solutions that satisfy Leaf's finest realists as well."

Hazō sat and stared at Kei mutely. Doom-pronouncing rants were nothing new for Kei, but it was hard to evaluate their validity, since generally he took her advice and didn't do the thing, and so the disasters she predicted had no chance to ensue. Terrible as he apparently was at seeking her advice when it mattered, he prided himself on his ability to accept it when he did, even when it was intensely critical and made him feel like an idiot. He also couldn't think, off the top of his head, of any instances where accepting it actually backfired (except in terms of lost opportunities where nothing would have gone wrong, a type of counterfactual it was difficult to assess).
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If anyone can find additional problems for me to add here that aren't covered by the problems I describe here as written, let me know.
  • Problem one: Reduction of our personal power as clan head; even insofar as he would be a very, very friendly clanhead, even were our opinion nigh-absolute in precedence to him (which it would not be), our power would be diluted.
  • Problem two: Jiraiya is not of uplift, though he is friendly to it.
  • Problem three: There will be a reverse power struggle of the seat of Hokage, with Asuma wanting him to resume it, and Jiraiya wanting to remain vacant of it. Political kerfuffles are to be avoided goes without saying here.
    • Problem three point five: Jiraiya would likely emerge victorious, meaning we wouldn't have a (more) friendly hokage.
  • Problem four: We (the Gouketsu) and we (generally aligned to us as players) will not remain in control of the rift past the point we get someone out.
  • Problem five: There would be a granddispute between the clans which we would have no say in, as we really don't have anyone lost to the afterlife (Jinno aside) to rescue, much less potentially-geographically-local as Jiraiya is.
    • Problem five point five: The damage to the Leaf as a result of these disputes is incalculable, and, needless to say, best avoided.
  • Problem five point i: Concealing Jiraiya's resurrection isn't really workable due to what he does.
  • Problem six: Once Jiraiya's resurrection is revealed, we will need to answer questions -- from other nations, from Akatsuki, and more. These questions need answers, because we will inevitably end up face to face with multiple Akatsuki members if nothing else. We probably can't lie, as such. [The following is a personal addendum, not something drawn from Kei's musings.] This needs a solution re: Akatsuki even if we somehow conceal our role in the resurrection of Jiraiya, becuase I expect someone from Akatsuki to question us casually eventually.
  • Problem seven et al: Given all this, AMITY will demand control of the rift. The hokage (whomever it is) will not give it. This will stress AMITY to the point of breaking at best, and at worst lead to a war of annihilation against Leaf.
    • This is Kei's elaboration on how she expects the situation to play out from problem six forward. If we reach problem seven, we're fucked up royally. It's worth considering, but if we can solve the first six, we won't reach this point.
I would ask that you all spend some time (and a few pages) talking about the problems before talking about solutions that come to mind. I was very careful not to phrase these to include solutions (and do let me know if I fucked up there), so as to avoid biasing discussion in that way. This ain't something we get to do twice, so let's do it right.
 
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Cariyaga said:
I would ask that you all spend some time (and a few pages) talking about the problems before talking about solutions that come to mind. I was very careful not to phrase these to include solutions (and do let me know if I fucked up there), so as to avoid biasing discussion in that way. This ain't something we get to do twice, so let's do it right.
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These aren't super complicated problems tbh. We just don't reveal that Jiraiya is back until we want things to pop off. So just keep him secured and out of chakra until he's willing to play ball.
 
Oneiros said:
These aren't super complicated problems tbh. We just don't reveal that Jiraiya is back until we want things to pop off. So just keep him secured and out of chakra until he's willing to play ball.
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I don't know. I think there is a very high risk of a Fourth Shinobi War, except this time its the other 4 villages against Leaf. These are people who have basically no reason to believe that Leaf won't just use the portal to continuously accrue advantages until it's capable of wiping them all out.

I think they would see their best chance at survival/independence would be to immediately attack Leaf all together, and yeah Leaf might be able to defeat them on the field but I have a feeling the civilian casualties would be immense, which kinda feels like a loss condition for us.
 
rescuing people could disrupt the cycle of reincarnation. and cause whatever problems that leads too.
the death god could get angry (shinigami, not jashin). if we believe the story about reincarnating twice making him angry.
 
Threnodist said:
I don't know. I think there is a very high risk of a Fourth Shinobi War, except this time its the other 4 villages against Leaf. These are people who have basically no reason to believe that Leaf won't just use the portal to continuously accrue advantages until it's capable of wiping them all out.

I think they would see their best chance at survival/independence would be to immediately attack Leaf all together, and yeah Leaf might be able to defeat them on the field but I have a feeling the civilian casualties would be immense, which kinda feels like a loss condition for us
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Well the good news is that if we are smart Leaf won't know or have access to this. We are the ones who will have cracked open hell so we get to decide how it will be used. So we just keep it secret till we're ready to pop off and reshape the world in our own image as immortal god-kings.
 
Oneiros said:
Well the good news is that if we are smart Leaf won't know or have access to this. We are the ones who will have cracked open hell so we get to decide how it will be used. So we just keep it secret till we're ready to pop off and reshape the world in our own image as immortal god-kings.
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...

Okay so besides that plan being wildly optimistic and very much against the trends of this quest (and considering there are individuals in Leaf that already know the location of the Rift because, you know, we brought them to it so we don't even have basic INFOSEC for it anymore).

What do we do when people don't want to go along with us "reshaping the world in our own image as immortal god-kings"?
 
Oneiros said:
This one is easy. We kill them and then bring them back to life.
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What happens when they don't want to go along with us again? Do we just keep on killing them? Because that sounds like torture to me.

Oneiros said:
These aren't super complicated problems tbh. We just don't reveal that Jiraiya is back until we want things to pop off. So just keep him secured and out of chakra until he's willing to play ball.
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Also I'll point out this doesn't resolve/answer Problem 2 (which opens the door to all the other problems). How do we A) Make sure we convince Jiraiya doesn't immediately go back to Leaf? B) Secure him, given he is S-class and we're not?
 
Oneiros said:
These aren't super complicated problems tbh. We just don't reveal that Jiraiya is back until we want things to pop off. So just keep him secured and out of chakra until he's willing to play ball.
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I expect that he'd probably be willing to play ball if we explain what's at stake clearly. Man devoted his life to preventing WWIV. If we can rescue the other Hokages before news breaks, their combined power + Naruto + Tsunade can curb stomp Akatsuki.

Furthermore, in a couple years we might be FOOMed enough to assist, I would find punching Itachi's head off pretty cathartic, personally.

EDIT: For the record, I think that draining him and keeping him captive is a terrible idea. He's a hothead and does stupid shit when he's pissed off. Let's not piss him off.
 
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Threnodist said:
What happens when they don't want to go along with us again? Do we just keep on killing them? Because that sounds like torture to me.
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Then we kill them again and let them chill in the after life until they can't interfere with our goals.
Threnodist said:
Also I'll point out this doesn't resolve/answer Problem 2 (which opens the door to all the other problems). How do we A) Make sure we convince Jiraiya doesn't immediately go back to Leaf? B) Secure him, given he is S-class and we're not?
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He doesn't have chakra in the after life. So we bring him out and then have Noburi drain him every day. Without chakra he's just a guy

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Sir Stompy said:
EDIT: For the record, I think that draining him and keeping him captive is a terrible idea. He's a hothead and does stupid shit when he's pissed off. Let's not piss him off.
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We're going to have to keep him drained for a while no matter what. Need to make sure he hasn't been driven insane or replaced by a demon or any other terrifying thing
 
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Oneiros said:
Then we kill them again and let them chill in the after life until they can't interfere with our goals.
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Even though we have reason to believe that people's soul's can fade away while on the Naraka Path?

Oneiros said:
He doesn't have chakra in the after life. So we bring him out and then have Noburi drain him every day. Without chakra he's just a guy
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Yeah Jiraiya of the Sannin is "just a guy".

How do we know Noburi will be with us on this plan? Why would he be willing to continuously use his Bloodline which he has issues with to repeatedly drain his adoptive father every single day, which would require him to stay at base or at least nearby i.e. being a support ninja.


Look. I'm not totally against bringing Jiraiya back. But Kei brought up a lot of good points in this chapter and if our "plan" is basically just "We'll wing it, and kill, torture, and imprison everyone that won't fall in line with us" I don't want to do that.

Sir Stompy said:
Furthermore, in a couple years we might be FOOMed enough to assist, I would find punching Itachi's head off pretty cathartic, personally.
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re: FOOM, I think we should keep in mind that b/c of the time limit on Jiraiya's soul disintegrating a lot of this has the potential to kick off before we get to S-rank.
 
If kagome right. We can make statues or carve his face into mountain (or is it already there?) so people remember jiraiya to delay his disintegration

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Another potential problem. What if the people in the afterlife aren't actually the dead people? They only have the same memories and personality but don't have their "soul".
another issue. if oro immortality is downloading his brain into another human. What if we find a dead oro (from battle of the gods) in the afterlife? If we bring him back then there are two Oros
 
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