You've finished researching the Macerator seal. Now we're trying to come up with rules for it, and we figure we're going to outsource this to you clever folk. We need some way of figuring out what it can and can't macerate. Suggestions?

Wonder how the Senju Wood Jutsu bloodline mostly disappearing ties into the Scorch Squads. The Scorch Squads part of the Senju plan for peace so they chose to let their power fade away to avoid getting ganged up on maybe after setting Konoha up as just enough of a dominant power to come out ahead if Mist's declining power is standard? Were other villages constantly doing shit to try and ensure the Bloodline didn't pass on? Did it not actually disappear in this Rational verse?
This one's more just 'does Hazou know if there are still ninja with this particular legendary ability?' since he has no real reason to bring it up in-character.

You know that the first Hokage was famous for his Wood Release, but you haven't heard of anyone using it since then.

@eaglejarl, @Velorien, how deadly are the ninja wars to the civilian population?

It varies. If they happen out in the woods there's no problem. If they happen in or near a city then lots and lots of people die.

Relatedly, at some point there was an ordering of materials onto which it was preferable to draw seals that I can't find now. What materials are viable, and can seals be made of chakra constructs rather than chakra ink?

Kagome is familiar with the following materials that seals can be written on:
• Paper, vellum, and other paper-like things
• Clay tablets
• Smooth stone like polished marble
• True masters have put seals on flesh. In Kagome's words, this is done by "Bone-headed retards. Skin changes shape, gets a sunburn, gets a cut, gets old, seal gets distorted, everything goes boom or slurp or splat or some other godawful noise and then we're all running for our lives and cursing stupid idiotic boneheaded retarded stinking 'expert sealmasters'. Ptui."

e: Did we ever figure out if chakra-conductive metal is suitable to activate seals? What if the seal is already touching one's skin? I'm thinking of putting said seals under clothing along the back of shoulders, on elbows and knees...

None of you know anything about chakra conductive metal aside from the fact that it exists, is crazy expensive, and is used for constructing weapons. You've certainly never heard of it used for anything other than daggers before.

Issue is, how long have we had iron nerve? Since before the elemental nations? or are they older in this AU?

The Kurosawa clan was apparently existent at the same time as the Uchiha Clan (and Fire Country existed, so it's possible its been only a century or more), and their crossing was what resulted in the Iron Nerve generations later. Chances are the Kurosawa already had at least one sealmaster who took advantage of the Iron Nerve secret ability to train a sealmaster every generation.

The Kurosawa have written genealogy going back about 10 generations. (~200 years.) All of those generations had the Iron Nerve. No one is quite sure when it originally cropped up.

Aren't we 6 or 7 generations from the founding of the elemental nations and a handful more from the creation of chakra? At least going by number of Hokage seen in the wild.

The Sage (and therefore creation of chakra) was 1,000+ years ago. The Elemental Nations are (arguably) several hundred years old; before that was the Warring States period where the nations were nominally there but poorly defined. The Hidden Villages are about 100 years old.

Make sure it's impossible to tell what was done in our lab, use explosives for the walls if necessary

There are a series of berms and walls remaining -- removing all of them is impractical. There's no clarity on what exactly they were for, though.

Team keeps mulling in the background over tactics of what, exactly, to tell Jiraiya to keep our promise to Takahashi while making Jiraiya maximally happy/minimally unhappy.

This happened.

@eaglejarl, @Velorien: Do we have enough cash to fake being a family of civvies who are just getting into the caravan business? Are there banks from which we could get a loan?

You have 4,958 ryo. (A little under $500 USD.) There are moneylenders in large towns, but no banking system per se. Money lenders require collateral.

@eaglejarl, @Velorien : In canon we see huge seals fold up into tiny symbols. Is that a thing that happens in MFD? If so, do we or Kagome know how to do it?

No, seals cannot move or change shape / size in our 'verse.

@Velorien @eaglejarl Is it possible to use Water Release: Syrup Trap as a 'sourced' jutsu (i.e., use chakra to manipulate preexisting water into taking on the 'sticky' property)? If so, how much chakra would be saved in doing so?

No.

How do Stupid Boxes fit into this? Kagome describes storing a box full of a variety of components; we should examine what storage seals consider to be 'one object' (just one compartment?)

Rules for storage seals:
1. Each seal has a maximum volume it can contain, set at creation time.
2. Each seal has a maximum mass it can contain, set at creation time.
3. Typical values are 1m^3 and 100kg.
4. Each seal can hold only one object.
5. The object must be within 3' (one yard) of the seal to be stored.
6. For this purpose, "an object" is defined as follows: Draw a line from the seal to the nearest point of the thing you're trying to seal. Imagine water flowing over the surface of the object. The water must be able to completely cover the item with no breaks. (e.g., the object can't be tied or chained to something).
7. There are stresses applied to the object when it is put into the seal and taken out of the seal. The stresses are asymmetric and somewhat random in terms of vector and intensity. They mostly-but-not-entirely stick to the surface of the object, although some will be inside it as well.
8. Inside a storage seal there is no time so the object is preserved exactly as it was. This includes temperature.
A stupid box is made by taking something that is going to explode very very soon (but hasn't yet) and putting it in a seal before it can.

I blinked several times after I read this. @eaglejarl Can Hazou just easily choose the length of the timer when he activates the seal? Is it a variable timer like Kagome had on Inoue's necklace? Because if so, then holy cow that is one design restriction I vastly overestimated.

Also, is this seal fully researched? If it is, can I get the technical details of exactly what it can do, in terms of the goals from my Formal Specifications?

Yes, he can choose a length from 0 up to 10s.

Yes, it is fully researched.

Also, can you list the levels of Pandaa and Pankurashun on her character sheet? That is one of the most important aspects of each summon.

No. That is not information that the characters have, it is meta-information about game mechanics.

Jello_Raptor said:
I would expect them to be raised to view civilians as little more than cattle, did that just not take? Were they not in a situation where they were isolated from civvies and grew to know them as people?

Since leaving Mist they've spent a lot of time living around civilians -- even in Mountain. They've come to recognize that civilians are people too.

"various people" said:
How does Substitution (aka kawarimi) work?

Kawarimi lets you switch places with a distant object. It models super-fast movement, not teleportation. As such, the rules are:
1. You need to be able to see at least 25% of the target, such that the 25% is exposed to the surrounding environment (i.e. you could walk up to it and touch it).
2. You need a clear path to the target, meaning one that you could actually traverse by (wall- / water-) walking.
3. The path must include no turns, although it can allow changes in orientation. Example: your path can go straight to the bottom of a cliff, then up the face of the cliff using wall-walking.
4. If you can only see part of the target then it needs to be what you think it is. Examples:
1. You put a log behind a tree with part of the log sticking out. You can switch with it.
2. You put a log behind a tree, but someone else comes along and swaps it with a different log without you knowing. You see part of the log and think it's the same one you put there, so you try to switch. You fail.
 
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Well, it depends on how thoroughly the macerator seal pulps things. @eaglejarl @Velorien Did we just remove the, uh, structures of the storage seal that stabilize the stored object and prevent it from ending up roughed up anyway, or did we remove that AND make it grind things down intentionally?
 
You need a clear path to the target, meaning one that you could actually traverse by (wall- / water-) walking.

So how does Substituting with objects that are in the air work? Like here:

Hazou rolled back up to his feet and started firing tag-equipped kunai up to bracket the monster. An instant after leaving his hands the tags unsealed logs that made perfect kawarimi targets. The megalodon's tiny brain was shocked to find itself in midair, suddenly surrounded by a flock of the tiny little morsels it had been planning to snack on before looking for a nice juicy whale or squid for dinner. Worse yet, they were fighting back! That wasn't what morsels were supposed to do!


Or what happens if we are in the air and try to Substitute? Say we are falling straight towards something that will mess us up, like a field of Amaterasu for example, and there's no way we can dodge it with a careful landing. Will Substitution still save us or are we doomed to die in hellfire?
 
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Well, it depends on how thoroughly the macerator seal pulps things. @eaglejarl @Velorien Did we just remove the, uh, structures of the storage seal that stabilize the stored object and prevent it from ending up roughed up anyway, or did we remove that AND make it grind things down intentionally?
You just removed the limiters. If you want to also jack up the stresses involved that's more research. Note that we've never defined how bad the stresses are, so there's a fair amount of room to play here.
 
"No argument from me," said Mari-sensei. "Still, it makes a cold sort of sense. Very low-risk way to slowly whittle down an enemy's ability to wage war." She shook her head. "I never bought into the idea that civilians are somehow inferior. I'm civilian-born, and my family aren't stupid, or immoral—well, except for my uncle. Anyway, point is that they're just people, not animals like those clan ninja like to claim." Her lip curled in disgust. "Stupid stuck-up bastards."
It also wittles down the benefits of actually winning a war. The main reason the Geneva Convetions exist is not to make war less horrible but to make war actually winnable. The kind of shit the ninjas are pulling? Everyone would be better off if someone just conquered the world and killed off everyone unwilling to cooperate.

Akatsuki would have been interesting if they'd actually tried to do something like that. Instead it was all about ninja superweapons.

Anyway, I'm surprised the ninja aren't unifying to become a new noble class. Because right now they're just slaughtering each other and the civilian population for an ever dwindling benefit.
 
It would be useful to have the stresses be enough to turn water into mist.

And it isn't really a macerator seal if it can't at least turn a solid of reasonable density (eg. wood) into course particulate.
 
It would be useful to have the stresses be enough to turn water into mist.

And it isn't really a macerator seal if it can't at least turn a solid of reasonable density (eg. wood) into course particulate.
My primary use that I can think of for it will require additional research anyway: I was mostly thinking of using it as a means to deliver some form of irritating agent (peppers, other plant matter, etc.) at range without requiring too much prep time, to make incapacitating enemies easier, so it'd require either a timer or goggles and a face mask. ...The latter wouldn't be bad to get, anyway. Basically pepper spray: the seal. What were the rest of your intentions for the macerator seal, anyway? I assume you guys had other ideas too.
 
Water into mist is the main thing I was hoping for.

Some kind of dust would be good for making explosions.

O hey, instant rice/wheat/whatever flour :) bet local peasants would like that.
Or sugar powder for confectionary. Cocoa powder. Isn't there some tea in powder?

Crushed ice for cocktails?

I am hungry.

E: crushed chalk (a lot of it) for a smoke screen of sorts?
Crushed bark for medicines and such. Or spices.
 
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Akatsuki would have been interesting if they'd actually tried to do something like that. Instead it was all about ninja superweapons.
I have this suspicion that that it is rational!Pain's goal to unite the ninja nations against him and serve as a martyr to the end of ninja warfare. ...or at least something more reasonable than killing off everyone on the planet because they can't bloody feed themselves.

Suggestions welcome.
My suggestion is enough to crush rock (though not to the point of being sand), pulp plant matter, and bend or snap metal of poor quality, though none of that in any structured fashion. To manage it with any form of consistency in shape would likely require a seal explicitly toward that purpose, sadly. I doubt water into mist would be possible with what amounts to a storage scroll with its limiters removed.
 
I've updated the tech tree:

anyone feel up to putting together a sealing tech tree?

Sure, I've been meaning to do this for a while.

  • Storage Seal [DONE]
    • Timed-Dispensing Storage Seal [DONE]
    • Timed-Storing Storage Seal
      • Matter-Eater Seal
        • Siberian Seal
    • Multiple-Item Storage Seal
      • PMYF_V2.0 (Additional Requirement: Timed-Dispensing Storage Seal)
    • Ranged-Dispensing Storage Seals
    • Ranged-Storing Storage Seals
    • Linked Cargo-Transferring Storage Seals
    • Macerator Seal (No Stress Limiter) [DONE]
      • Macerator Seal (Amplified Stress)
        • Fabricator Seal
    • Kagome's Implosion Seal
      • Air-Cannon Reactive Armour Seals
      • Reverse Rocket Seal
      • Mummification Seal
      • People-Eater Seal
      • Poison Removal Seal
      • Light-Storing Seal
        • Laser Cannon Seal
  • Explosion Seal [DONE]
    • Shaped Explosion Seal
      • Explosive Reactive Armour Seals
    • Ray-Gun Seal
    • Explosive Mine Seal

  • Seal of Grand Fireball
  • Summoning Seal Analysis
    • Hiraishin
    • Time Travel Seal
    • Time Dilation Seal
    • Nullify Spacetime Manipulation Seal
  • Casino Chakra-Detection Seals
    • Chakra-Sensor Seals
    • Warning Light Seal
    • Sound-Output (without chakra-detection) Seals
      • Speaker Seal
      • Sonar Seal
    • Light-Output (without chakra-detection) Seals
      • Monitor Seal
      • Radar Seal

  • Seal of MEW
  • Seal of Henge
  • State Seals
    • Logic Seals
      • Computer Seal (Additional Requirements: Speaker Seal, Monitor Seal, some kind of input)
  • Force Wall Seal
    • Force Shuriken-Extension Seal
    • Force Cage Seal
    • Blood Loss Prevention Seal (Additional Requirement: Single Diagnostic "Detect Wounds" Seal)
  • Five-Seal Barrier
    • One-Seal Barrier (F-SB without the four extra seals, locks position relative to the Earth)
      • Mobile One-Seal Barrier (O-SB that locks position relative to the target itself, allowing indestructibility without immobility)
  • Tripwire Seal
  • Single Diagnostic Seal (monitors a single biological function) (Additional Requirement: Any Output Seal)
    • Multiple Diagnostic Seal (combination of multiple SDSs)
      • Lie-Detector Seal
      • Rengeneration Seal
      • Monogenic Mutation Seals
        • Polygenic Mutation Seals
  • Sealing Modularity
  • Altered Gravity Seal
    • Anti Deva Path Seal
    • Black Hole Seal (plz no)
      • Gravitational Time Dilation Seal
      • Wormhole Seal
      • Gravitational Space Warping Seal
        • Gravitational Warp-Drive Seal
  • Seal of Light-Weight Rock Technique
  • Seals of Pangolin-Element Techniques
  • Seals of Composite Element Techniques
    • Seal of Ice Element Freeze Ray
    • Seal of Dust Element
    • Seals of Mokuton Anti-Bijuu Techniques (Additional Requirement: ACL Microorganism Generation Seal)
  • Chakra Draining Seal
    • Chakra Battery Seal
  • Artficial Chakra Lifeform (ACL) Microorganism Generation Seal
    • ACL Plant Generation Seal
      • ACL Minor Demon Generation Seal
        • ACL Demon Generation Seal
 
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I've updated the tech tree:
You have no idea how big my grin is seeing this tech tree. On that note, though:

Force Bucklers and Clothing-Delimited Force Walls (though they will require work to be as nonrestrictive as clothing is).
Hazou's To Do seal list is terrifying.
It's wonderful.

e: Ooh, had a thought. Could we somehow manufacture invisible sealing ink? Most people would have issues with that, but Hazou has the Iron Nerve. This would prevent people from copying or noticing his sealing style. It would require taking the Iron Nerve to the next level, though.
 
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I have this image of Jiraiya and Orochimaru saying that at the same time.
I, uh, had the thought earlier that if we somehow end up party wiping except for Hazou it would be an... interesting way to go to join Orochimaru to get them back. Hard to justify in story, but...

...Also I want an omake of Hazou sharing his to do list of seals with various party members.
 
...Also I want an omake of Hazou sharing his to do list of seals with various party members.
Let's maybe not traumatise them for life just yet?

Also if everyone Hazou holds dear dies, I would absolutely vote for looking up Orochimaru. Like, playing nice (well, "nice") didn't work out, time to cast off the chains, break limits, etc etc.
 
Let's maybe not traumatise them for life just yet?

Also if everyone Hazou holds dear dies, I would absolutely vote for looking up Orochimaru. Like, playing nice (well, "nice") didn't work out, time to cast off the chains, break limits, etc etc.
Yep. That would be... very exciting times for the world, I'm sure. Yes, let's call it that.
 
@eaglejarl Did we ever get stuff on Water Release: Syrup Trap? I notice Noburi has level 8 but we have no other information besides that and the name.

Reminder: Successes are broken down into 3 levels based off the formula:
(your roll - their roll) / (your dice + their dice)^0.65​

(Note that 0.65 is an exponent, not a multiplier, and it only applies to the denominator.)

0-19: level A (minimal success)
20-49: level B (solid success)
50+: level C (total domination)

Syrup Trap
Control x 3, Stamina x 3
Range: 5 + Control meters
AoE: Control meters
When someone is trying to TacMov against you (e.g. they want to escape, you want to catch them), Syrup Trap can give them a penalty to their TacMov so that you're more likely to win.

Note that a person cannot use kawarimi (Substitution) to dodge or escape from the Syrup Trap.

There's two steps to this:
  1. Resolve the Syrup Trap contest.
  2. Resolve the TacMov contest that you actually care about.
To resolve the Syrup Trap:

ST user rolls (TacMov + Syrup Trap level)
Target rolls (TacMov)
If the target wins the roll then they dodged the syrup and take no penalty. If they lose, however much they lose by is subtracted from their subsequent TacMov roll.

Example:
Noburi (15 TacMov + 8 ST) vs Joe the Jonin (20 TacMov). Joe is a ranged type and wants to move away. Noburi wants to close in.

First, do the Syrup contest.
Noburi rolls (15 + 8 = ) 23 dice and gets a 1150
Joe rolls 20 dice and gets a 1000. He's caught! He will take a 150 point penalty in the actual contest.

Okay, time to actually do TacMov to see who gets to control the range:

Noburi (15 dice): 750
Joe (20 dice - 150 pt penalty): 1000 reduced to 850

Joe wins. Ordinarily he would have won by 250 which is a (1000-750) / (15 + 20)^0.65 = 24 pt victory (level B, solid success) and would have meant that he was well out of reach. In this case he wins by 100, which is (100 / 35^0.65 = ) 10 pt victory = level A, barely succeeded. He stays just out of Noburi's reach but is scrambling to stay there.

Note: These rules are experimental and subject to change if we discover that they are horribly broken.
 
So how does Substituting with objects that are in the air work?

Or what happens if we are in the air and try to Substitute? Say we are falling straight towards something that will mess us up, like a field of Amaterasu for example, and there's no way we can dodge it with a careful landing. Will Substitution still save us or are we doomed to die in hellfire?
Substituting with objects in the air works normally as long as you are able to reach them (e.g. through chakra-assisted jumping).

If you are in the air, then you're in trouble, and doomed to die in hellfire.

And if you're trying to Substitute in or into water... [shudder]
 
Reminder: Successes are broken down into 3 levels based off the formula:
(your roll - their roll) / (your dice + their dice)^0.65​

(Note that 0.65 is an exponent, not a multiplier, and it only applies to the denominator.)

0-19: level A (minimal success)
20-49: level B (solid success)
50+: level C (total domination)

Syrup Trap
Control x 3, Stamina x 3
Range: 5 + Control meters
AoE: Control meters
When someone is trying to TacMov against you (e.g. they want to escape, you want to catch them), Syrup Trap can give them a penalty to their TacMov so that you're more likely to win.

Note that a person cannot use kawarimi (Substitution) to dodge or escape from the Syrup Trap.

There's two steps to this:
  1. Resolve the Syrup Trap contest.
  2. Resolve the TacMov contest that you actually care about.
To resolve the Syrup Trap:

ST user rolls (TacMov + Syrup Trap level)
Target rolls (TacMov)
If the target wins the roll then they dodged the syrup and take no penalty. If they lose, however much they lose by is subtracted from their subsequent TacMov roll.

Example:
Noburi (15 TacMov + 8 ST) vs Joe the Jonin (20 TacMov). Joe is a ranged type and wants to move away. Noburi wants to close in.

First, do the Syrup contest.
Noburi rolls (15 + 8 = ) 23 dice and gets a 1150
Joe rolls 20 dice and gets a 1000. He's caught! He will take a 150 point penalty in the actual contest.

Okay, time to actually do TacMov to see who gets to control the range:

Noburi (15 dice): 750
Joe (20 dice - 150 pt penalty): 1000 reduced to 850

Joe wins. Ordinarily he would have won by 250 which is a (1000-750) / (15 + 20)^0.65 = 24 pt victory (level B, solid success) and would have meant that he was well out of reach. In this case he wins by 100, which is (100 / 35^0.65 = ) 10 pt victory = level A, barely succeeded. He stays just out of Noburi's reach but is scrambling to stay there.

Note: These rules are experimental and subject to change if we discover that they are horribly broken.

Can we assume that the penalization also applies to tac move rolls for other people too? IE, Nobby uses ST, Hazou closes in on the person, ST penalty still applies?

e: Also, can you chakra enhance BOTH Syrup Trap and Tac Move in the use of Syrup Trap?
 
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Eh? What if there's a floater and we're on the shore, and we want to Kawarimi with it and we could reach it by water walking?

What if there's a barrel full of water and we want to switch with it? Or its content?
Then you aren't attempting to Substitute in or into water. You are staying above the surface at all times.

Switching with a barrel of water is fine. Switching with pure water, a liquid, is impossible and always has been.
 
6. For this purpose, "an object" is defined as follows: Draw a line from the seal to the nearest point of the thing you're trying to seal. Imagine water flowing over the surface of the object. The water must be able to completely cover the item with no breaks. (e.g., the object can't be tied or chained to something).

I'm trying to imagine how this works in practice. Does the seal know to ignore ground automatically or do you need to drop the object (or levitate it some other way) to make sure it's not in contact with anything (else than air)?

You just removed the limiters. If you want to also jack up the stresses involved that's more research. Note that we've never defined how bad the stresses are, so there's a fair amount of room to play here.

Maybe it's best to look at this problem from the game balance perspective? Meaning the seal should do at least something useful.

The three things people (probably) want from the macerator seal are (please someone tell me how wrong I am about these things):
  1. Dust explosions
    • Dry wood, at least soft woods (balsa, cedar etc.) should turn to explody dust easily. Woods with enough tar in them should also get explody even with slightly coarser particulates (pine, alder, birch...maybe others?)...I think it would be easier to just say that wood -> dust -> explosions, unless QMs have already mapped the flora of the setting extensively and want us to play lumberjack ninjas.
    • Sugar, (and pretty much anything edible that's dry enough) should also get explody...right?
    • Coal, if wood turns to dust so should this one should probably too
    • Metals, I think this ones a bit iffy if the stress is impact damage and not coordination scrambling like I was thinking previously...maybe save it for v2?
  2. Mist generation
    • The way storage scrolls work (volume limitation specifically) I would assume we have to put the water into a container first
    • I doubt the QMs want to start to fiddle with dew points etc., but I'm pretty sure we can create pretty thick mist (or fog I suppose) if we can disperse the water properly. If that's not enough we can alway help it by dropping the temperature with Elemental Mastery. (If there are any math enthusiasts in the crowd, feel free to do some example calculations for different temperatures. It would actually be useful to know how much mist we can get out of 1m3​ of water in different temperatures)
    • Snow generation when below freezing! Yay! (Or maybe we just get supercooled water mist instead? Not yay)
    • If we don't need chakra drain, softer rock-like-things (I'm thinking chalk) could probably turn into obscuring clouds?
  3. Tear gas
    • Peppers
    • Maybe some chemicals...What would be appropriate for our tech level?
    • Cute puppies?
    • Glass, if we really don't like our enemies
I can't think anything else useful now, but there must be something.
 
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