Voting is open for the next 4 hours, 12 minutes
I really don't want to try going the route of a mechanical machine that creates seals until we have a much more robust understanding of how chakra works as a field theory. ... We still don't have a solid understanding of how chakra works independents of the humans in the loop.
Maybe the pangolin would have some insight into this?

e: It'd also be an in to learning sage mode for Keiko, although I think she'll need to, at the very least, be able to summon the boss before they'll be willing to go that far.
 
Last edited:
I suspect the OP hax bullshit cool things happen when someone figures out the RPC interface between Ninjutsu and Sealing. Specifically, being able to create seals with jutsu in the middle of battle, and knowing enough technique hacking and sealing to be able to easily create jutsu that correspond to a new seal.

Okay. This. This sounds like a really cool thing to develop. We should work on developing our ability to use seals through jutsu. Then our progress in things like explosive tags might be applied to combat jutsu. Maybe we can come up with a set of handseals that will trap an opponent in extraplanar space.
 
Okay. This. This sounds like a really cool thing to develop. We should work on developing our ability to use seals through jutsu. Then our progress in things like explosive tags might be applied to combat jutsu. Maybe we can come up with a set of handseals that will trap an opponent in extraplanar space.
One step closer to being the next Yellow Flash.
 
Edit: This entire thing is longer and more detailed than I intended, but I think there's a lot of things deserving critique in here and would appreciate anyone with the patience to read it all. If you're not one of those people, feel free to skip to the Research Plan and the orange bits.

On the one hand, chakrapunk information technology would be amazing to write. On the other hand, I don't think that seals work like this. I'll need to talk with @Velorien about it.

Even if it is possible, there's a few questions you would need to answer before this plan would have a prayer:

  1. How does Hazou know about logic gates?
  2. How does he know about modularity at all? That's not a thing that exists at this tech level.
  3. Why would a seal -- which, by definition, fails in chaotic and random ways -- become 'fail safe' (as opposed to 'fail Cthulhu') simply because it's modular? Each component is a separate seal.
  4. Seals have been around for hundreds if not thousands of years. Why has no one else ever thought of this?
There's probably more, but those are the ones that come to mind.

Remember back during character creation when y'all were creating bloodlines? There was a suggestion "we can hear through the fourth wall, so we can use any knowledge that any player has (or can pull off the internet)". Sadly, it did not get chosen, because it would have made this project a lot more believable.


It's hardly splitting attention. Being a CEO makes use of Diplomacy and Deception, which you'll notice, we're already levelling up quite a bit. Hard work and time consuming? That depends on how much we delegate.

The financial services company that my friend and I are currently spinning up will be the fourth startup I've founded. One thing about startups: they will eat every minute you can throw at them and that's probably not enough. Founding and operating a business is not going to leave you with any time at all for ninja training. You can try to delegate it, but then you run into issues with not knowing what's going on -- either things go in directions you didn't want, or the person you've delegated to craters the company through ineptitude / bad luck / what have you, or they rip you off. I'm not saying that the merchant empire thing isn't doable, but it is by no means as trivial as it might seem on the surface.

That said, it would be epic.
 
You can try to delegate it, but then you run into issues with not knowing what's going on -- either things go in directions you didn't want, or the person you've delegated to craters the company through ineptitude / bad luck / what have you, or they rip you off.

Okay.

So we need our management to be comprised of people we have enough control over to make sure they don't try to spin things away to unwanted directions, and are competent, and we need to carefully go through the accounts ourselves to prevent embezzlement.

Barring the inevitable black-swan events, that's still doable albeit harder.

After all, the team have significantly better starting assets than you and your friend, by virtue of being ninja.
 
  1. How does Hazou know about logic gates?
  2. How does he know about modularity at all? That's not a thing that exists at this tech level.
  3. Why would a seal -- which, by definition, fails in chaotic and random ways -- become 'fail safe' (as opposed to 'fail Cthulhu') simply because it's modular? Each component is a separate seal.
  4. Seals have been around for hundreds if not thousands of years. Why has no one else ever thought of this?

1: No comment here yet, I haven't given much thought to this bit.
2: The idea of modularity, in Hazou's case, comes from a desire to be able to do things like make a timer occur before sealing an item rather than before releasing it without such painstaking and dangerous work to make it its own unique seal. Going from there to encapsulating the components of seals on an individual basis is not so great a jump that he couldn't make it, I think. Consider also the board games that we've played; I would be surprised if there was no form of modularization he could draw inspiration from there.
3: The idea is to create component parts that you know work with other component parts consistently as part of a sealing style. When applied incorrectly, it would, of course, turn out to be fail Cthulhu, but assuming we could create a set of input/outputs for seals (yes, this is a pretty big assumption, I realize), I see no reason it couldn't work. But then, maybe I'm being too optimistic.
4: The last people who specialized in sealing vanished from the face of the planet and of the rest there is apparently not nearly so much organization as there was from Uzu. It is, therefore, very possible that someone else would have had the idea for this, but then ended up killed because ninja life, because they produced too many seals and got assassinated (see also: ninja life), because they weren't skilled enough in sealing to pull this off, because they didn't encapsulate their seals thoroughly enough -- memory leaks, so to speak, in sealing, would be deadly.

e: Alternatively, they may have just not had the idea because it is a sufficient paradigm shift from the norm to not be something they'd think about.
 
Last edited:
I really don't want to try going the route of a mechanical machine that creates seals until we have a much more robust understanding of how chakra works as a field theory.
Actually, at least in character, I think the Int stat represents Knowledge of Chakra Dynamics. The four things I know it's a requirement for are, (in apparent order of popularity,) Genjutsu, Sealing, Technique Development, and Summoning.
Of those, Genjutsu is the only one that doesn't require a direct 1-1 ratio, although it has a higher starting investment (Int minus three times two), which presumably represents the understanding required to influence senses.
Summoning is a bit trickier, because it seems so simple - but I expect it makes sense if you look at it as making a clone templated from a nonhuman, foreign chakra system that is constantly in Sage Mode. And then handing its controls to an extradimensional alien as they perform a Henge variant.
Fortunately, the Scroll seems to do an excellent job of keeping both parties safe.
It's applications to Sealing and Technique Development are obvious.
 
1. How does Hazou know about logic gates?

In this case, logic gates are an abstraction I'm using because of my particular knowledge base. Hasou would almost certainly think of them completely differently. A lot of the operations we think of as logic gates are a natural byproduct of requiring a list of instructions to change based on input. "If someone triggers it, but it has already been triggered before, make it explode" etc.. Hasou would probably not think of a component as an "XOR" gate, he'd probably think of it as component that does something when only one of the inputs is "on".

He's already got "on" and "off", notions like "and" and "or" descend from that naturally. For basic analog operations, "greater than", "less than", "amplify", are already there conceptually even if his vocabulary would be much less concise than ours. He wouldn't have any of the frequency space operations, like low pass or high pass filters unless he notices components doing that to a signal, and that's a long shot at best.

What I'm not doing is assuming that he has an mathematical understanding of the logic he's working with. Even when I talk about a transition matrix, that's a term that we use because we know there's a number of mathematical operations that apply to such a matrix. Hazou wouldn't know that, he'd think of it as a lookup table, "If in this state, with this input, go to this other state, send this output".

This sort of thinking has to exist within legal codes, mission instructions, and various schools of tradecraft. Hazou has to realize that he can represent the same things without using natural language. I also fully expect sealing lore to come with a lot of the basic stuff, for reasons I talk about below,

2. How does he know about modularity at all? That's not a thing that exists at this tech level.

I very much doubt that. Mostly because of the nature of every single engineering discipline. People can't really hold an incredibly complex system in their heads at one, we have to create layers of abstraction.

Assuming that humans still think in broadly the same way, modularity has to be a part of sealing. Especially at the higher levels. The difference is in how that is modularity is expressed.

Take assembly programming for instance, especially if you're on a really old machine that's memory constrained. The development process, even back in the day before C and higher level programming languages, had people sketch out how their system will function as pseudo code. Then they turned portions of the pseudocode into actual sequences of instructions, and then optimized those sequences of instructions till it fit on the available memory.

Even then, their source is littered with comments on exactly what relation the final code had to the higher level abstractions. Likewise, with electrical engineering at the "we have discrete transistors or vacuum tubes" level. People sketched out block diagrams, then turned those block diagrams into gate assemblies while making sure power and other constraints were met. Then connected those gate assemblies and tried to find further optimizations.

Every last bit of this process was done on paper, because building circuits is hard, or the unfinished code wouldn't fit in memory. But the process was done, because humans can't handle more than a certain amount of complexity at once.

Modularity must exist in sealing, for it to be vaguely viable. Especially in a context where failure is so costly. There's some really cool stuff around software development in the apollo landing era, where programs had to be coded in by wrapping wire spools in careful patterns around ferrite cores, even then we needed modularity to keep things from going bad and making sure safety exists. That modularity only showed up on paper and was invisible when looking at the core loop memory, but it existed.

If sealing comes with some modularity, even if it's only really visible on paper, then it probably also comes with some basic notion of logic.

4. Seals have been around for hundreds if not thousands of years. Why has no one else ever thought of this?

The innovation here is not that Hazou is inventing modularity, it's that he's realized Iron Nerve's ability to reproduce images makes his modularity more powerful. Hazou is shifting his style to take better advantage of the power of Iron Nerve. He's moving the modularity from the on paper designs, to the ... err ... on paper designs. You know what I mean. :p It's pretty much exactly what we do now when we have compute cycles to spare. Nobody optimizes assembly for their entire program, and the actual assembly generated high level code does tons of things that aren't actually neccesary to accomplish the task.

My theory is that everyone else's seals are like the core loop memory, they've taken time during design to remove every unnecessary stroke of the brush because each of those strokes is another place where they could make an error when writing the seal out. Hazou can trust iron nerve to make reproducible patterns, so he doesn't have to spend his time optimizing out every unnecessary edge case. He saves the time that others spend optimizing seals to make them more reliable because his bloodline already makes them reliable. He can probably also write them a good bit smaller without issue.

He also gets another advantage from this, which is that if he's reusing components anyway he can spend some extra time making sure they're all well designed, as efficient as possible, and design interfaces that are hard to break. That way he can actually treat the components as black boxes during design, trusting that they won't violate some fundamental constraint because he decided to merge part of the sealing system, and the logic controlling the sealing to save space. Which also helps design happen faster.

Normally those checks would have to be done for the entire seal at a high-level and for the individual portions of a seal. If Hazou is reusing components, he's already done the low-level checks for each component, and only has to test the high level portions.

3. Why would a seal -- which, by definition, fails in chaotic and random ways -- become 'fail safe' (as opposed to 'fail Cthulhu') simply because it's modular? Each component is a separate seal.

Not quite, the 'fail Cthulhu' would still happen when developing components, and it wouldn't quite 'fail safe' in any case. The idea is that he's tested his components rigorously and, as long as he doesn't break his interface rules when designing seals, they would only do things the components should do individually.

When combining an explosive component with some logic to create a explosive seal. His tests may still explode at the wrong time, or otherwise function wrong, but components don't interact in unexpected ways to create new cthulhu failure modes. Which is not to say there might not be a mistake in the individual component making them 'fail cthulhu', but the probability is lower than before. In the end, he has a much reduced rate of 'fail cthulhu' for seal designs, and a similar rate of 'fail stupid' style logic errors, leading to a somewhat lower rate of overall error.

More predictable failure modes means that safety is easier too, since you can focus on protecting yourself from the most likely issues.

Edit:
On the one hand, chakrapunk information technology would be amazing to write. On the other hand, I don't think that seals work like this. I'll need to talk with @Velorien about it.

I think that would be awesome too. It's not going to happen any time soon, even with this. Hazou'd develop stuff faster, since he doesn't have to optimize as much and can more easily reuse bits, but there's still a limit to the complexity he could handle.

My mental model is for even a simple computer, simply writing the entire seal out is like drawing the gate level diagram out by hand and never making a mistake. This is ludicrous, probably even with Iron Nerve something will be smudged. If we ever get enough to technique hacking or sealing to stamp out seals in an instant, then maybe. Though, even that is probably at least a few in-game years away for something as complex as a computer.



Anyway, that my current set of hypotheses and explanations. Feel free to word of god it into inaccuracy. Also, even if you think the general idea is sound, you should probably tweak the constants on the proposed crunch. They were not chosen with any real rigor.

Also, I state things like they're facts, but it's the world you designed. I'm not trying to tell you that you're doing it wrong or anything. It's just easier to write this way and not put caveats and conditions in front of bloody everything.
 
Last edited:
The innovation here is not that Hazou is inventing modularity, it's that he's realized Iron Nerve's ability to reproduce images makes his modularity more powerful. Hazou is shifting his style to take better advantage of the power of Iron Nerve. He's moving the modularity from the on paper designs, to the ... err ... on paper designs. You know what I mean. :p It's pretty much exactly what we do now when we have compute cycles to spare. Nobody optimizes assembly for their entire program, and the actual assembly generated high level code does tons of things that aren't actually neccesary to accomplish the task.

The Kurosawa have had a sealmaster in every generation for as far back as they have records, and all of them have had the Iron Nerve. What is special about Hazou?
 
The Kurosawa have had a sealmaster in every generation for as far back as they have records, and all of them have had the Iron Nerve. What is special about Hazou?

Huh? I thought Hazou has a stronger form of it than the rest of the clan. Though I don't recall seeing how his was better, so I am probably misremembering.

Is there any reason he has to be the only Kurosawa to do this? Given how the clan hides their skill with seals so they'll still be sent out to the front lines, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that they might have a few particularly clever sealmasters who were prolific with creative designs but not so clever that people would realize it's a Kurosawa thing and try to force them all to take that approach.

Edit: One sealmaster a generation isn't all that much, and if they're not all insanely clever and weirdly list minded then not all of them would have come up with this.

A few creative kurosawa sealmasters would probably not fundamentally change the landscape of the elemental nations, and if they're trying to keep their entire family from being drafted as sealers they'd want to hide the exact nature of their skill.

Do the Kurosawas not have a reputation for producing the occasional seal crafting prodigy? It seems like the sort of thing that would be filed under "Huh, what's genetics again?" and never really poked at by people outside of the clan.

Edit 2: There's also probably a good bit of sunk cost bias keeping people from doing this if they think of it late into their career. Switching takes less time and effort the less you know when you do it, and it's an idea that becomes more likely to come up the more you know about sealing.

Edit 3: This would actually be a fun in-lore explanation. To everyone else, the Kurosawa sealmasters all look like reckless insane madmen. Even the mediocre ones produce double the volume of seals as anyone else, and the particularly good ones make crazy new seals constantly with less testing than others use for incremental improvements.

Kagome would probably just force us to keep on testing rigorously, even if we explain all of this to him, but that's fine.

When asked about why they have all the sealmasters, they could answer "Dunno, it's probably a weird minor bloodline thing. We test the kids and pick out the few best every generation for proper training. Most are pretty average at sealing, but the good ones are really good."
 
Last edited:
The Kurosawa have had a sealmaster in every generation for as far back as they have records, and all of them have had the Iron Nerve. What is special about Hazou?

That's obviously because Kurosawa sealmasters focused on copying and reverse-engineering everyone else's seals*. Since the old sealmaster would teach his craft to the new one, this behavior kept propagating in their sealmasters and none of them tried to get creative with something like modularity. Or maybe some did but they reached different solutions.

Hazou is the first Kurosawa sealcrafter who was introduced to sealing completely outside the clan. He has no preconceptions on what is the right way to use his bloodline in his sealing work so he ends up with something weird and novel like modularity.

That sounds pretty plausible to me.

*EDIT: Or maybe they focused on something else, doesn't really matter for this example.
 
Last edited:
That's obviously because Kurosawa sealmasters focused on copying and reverse-engineering everyone else's seals*. Since the old sealmaster would teach his craft to the new one, this behavior kept propagating in their sealmasters and none of them tried to get creative with something like modularity. Or maybe some did but they reached different solutions.

Hazou is the first Kurosawa sealcrafter who was introduced to sealing completely outside the clan. He has no preconceptions on what is the right way to use his bloodline in his sealing work so he ends up with something weird and novel like modularity.

That sounds pretty plausible to me.

*EDIT: Or maybe they focused on something else, doesn't really matter for this example.
This actually sounds quite reasonable.
 
@Jello_Raptor this seems to imply that there are specific components in sealing already, no?


Yes, I got super excited about it and then completely forgot. It was why I thought sealing is more like electrical engineering than programming. Nodes connected by components or components connected by nodes are how electrical engineering tends to model designs. CS usually models them with syntax trees or, if you're feeling particularly masochistic, turing machines.

If this is the case, we're just pulling up a level of abstraction. Going from drawing all the transistors as units, to packaging bunches of transistors into single purpose chips and working with those.

I wonder how our QMs feel about our tendency to reads tons of detail into throwaway lines.
 
Last edited:
So are we assuming that the ancient Kurosawa (the first generation of sealmasters) did things entirely on their own, instead of leeching of of other sealmasters who weren't Kurosawa?
They just need to have learned from someone who didn't use a particularly modular style. Incidentally, do we know whether the Kurosawa clan has been around long enough to be ancient? How many generations are we talking?
 
Aren't we 6 or 7 generations from the founding of the elemental nations and a handful more from the creation of chakra? At least going by number of Hokage seen in the wild.
 
Incidentally, do we know whether the Kurosawa clan has been around long enough to be ancient?
The Kurosawa clan was apparently existent at the same time as the Uchiha Clan (and Fire Country existed, so it's possible its been only a century or more), and their crossing was what resulted in the Iron Nerve generations later. Chances are the Kurosawa already had at least one sealmaster who took advantage of the Iron Nerve secret ability to train a sealmaster every generation.
 
The Kurosawa clan was apparently existent at the same time as the Uchiha Clan (and Fire Country existed, so it's possible its been only a century or more), and their crossing was what resulted in the Iron Nerve generations later. Chances are the Kurosawa already had at least one sealmaster who took advantage of the Iron Nerve secret ability to train a sealmaster every generation.

Issue is, how long have we had iron nerve? Since before the elemental nations? or are they older in this AU?
 
I wonder how our QMs feel about our tendency to reads tons of detail into throwaway lines.
Scared.
So are we assuming that the ancient Kurosawa (the first generation of sealmasters) did things entirely on their own, instead of leeching of of other sealmasters who weren't Kurosawa?
More likely, they copied anyone who's seals they could get their hands on and so don't have a standard style.
 
So, on the 'teach civilians chakra usage' idea. Given how it would be genjutsu focused, we could set things up so skills would only be passed on in genjutsu. Now I know what you're asking, 'but what about the initial offer'? We have Mari teach them her jutsu.

Given these conditions, I think we can convert a sizeable portion of a country before any hidden village catches wind.
 
So, on the 'teach civilians chakra usage' idea. Given how it would be genjutsu focused, we could set things up so skills would only be passed on in genjutsu. Now I know what you're asking, 'but what about the initial offer'? We have Mari teach them her jutsu.

Given these conditions, I think we can convert a sizeable portion of a country before any hidden village catches wind.

Our current best guess is that jutsu eats her happy memories. Until we can technique hack her a versions that destroys traumatic memories, I'd rather not ask her to use it.
 
So, on the 'teach civilians chakra usage' idea. Given how it would be genjutsu focused, we could set things up so skills would only be passed on in genjutsu. Now I know what you're asking, 'but what about the initial offer'? We have Mari teach them her jutsu.

Given these conditions, I think we can convert a sizeable portion of a country before any hidden village catches wind.
Um.

I'm pretty sure any civilians capable of using chakra would have been taken by the local Hidden Village/equivalent. If Mist scouted Mari, a civilian from the back-ass end of nowhere, there's no way other Hidden Villages wouldn't have done the same. Tea/Iron, maybe not. But they'd still be searching.
 
Voting is open for the next 4 hours, 12 minutes
Back
Top