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Don't agree with your analysis. I don't think Naruto mainlined resolve since he is pretty susceptible to genjutsu. But if people in Leaf think it's just possible because of Noburi we can just lie and say that drinking that much chakra water that frequently would cause death. Plus since it's related to bloodlines we can just say clan secrets.
Do you think he has a way to get around clone sickness without resolve then? That sounds like something we should probably get for ourselves if we have any reason to believe it's true. It would take FOOM from a multi-year process to something where we'd be immediately getting 10+ XP per day.
 
Do you think he has a way to get around clone sickness without resolve then? That sounds like something we should probably get for ourselves if we have any reason to believe it's true. It would take FOOM from a multi-year process to something where we'd be immediately getting 10+ XP per day.
I think the Bijou makes the check for him. I'm personally down for stealing one for Hazou but the thread at large isn't so shrugs
 
CR training can be performed sure but afaik not nearly enough to get someone there. Übertraining with SC in general has been thought of, and done, with Naruto's (un)naturally huge chakra reserves.
This is simply incorrect. Paper did an analysis for how much longer it would take if we had to level CR and didn't have access to Noburi. Do you know how much time it added? 3 months. It's not negligible but in the grand scheme of things that's peanuts.
 
I think the Bijou makes the check for him. I'm personally down for stealing one for Hazou but the thread at large isn't so shrugs

That's what I was thinking too.

Also I don't think hosting a Bijou is worth it. I suspect it comes with constant pervasive mental corruption that needs to be resisted. It's RNG whether or not the host's personality is compatible with the Bijou's. And it makes us a target and restricts our freedom since we become a strategic weapon. We'd permanently lose the option of cutting and running to lighthouse somewhere quiet. Plus we can already acquire massive chakra reserves through FOOM.

A Bijou might make a good target when we hit S-ranker stats and we're looking for a special something to truly become S-rank, but it doesn't seem like a good idea now.
 
Jinchuriki can't Summon, and Hazou needs to be able to Summon to fix the Great Seal.
First have Kagome there so he can work on the great seal so theoretically doesn't have to be Hazou. Plus I want to investigate why that's something we've been told. Does the fact that we are already a summoner change that? Also want to see if we can modify the seal to instead of being permanent be hot swappable. Have the tailed beast sealed inside an object that we build a connection from the object to a person.
 
Ami is not loyal to Kei nor KEI, Ami is loyal to Kei, and betraying Hazou would:
1)Make Kei really sad
2)Give power to people that could one day decide Kei is someone they don't like.

I didn't say anything about betraying Hazou, but her taking power? And she can just lie to her if she decides to do something that would count as betraying Hazou. Also, Ami would 100% hurt Kei if she thought it was for her good, that's what she did in the first place.

And Ami can just select people she trusts.

My actual point is that FOOM is already out of our control.
 
I didn't say anything about betraying Hazou, but her taking power? And she can just lie to her if she decides to do something that would count as betraying Hazou. Also, Ami would 100% hurt Kei if she thought it was for her good, that's what she did in the first place.

And Ami can just select people she trusts.

My actual point is that FOOM is already out of our control.
Actually Ami still thinks we need Noburi for CR and that we have a secret from the 5th Hokage to deal with clone sickness. So she knows that FOOM exist but she doesn't know the secret is just be Saitima about training your resolve

"Anyway," she said, reluctantly putting Keiko down, "with Noburi and the koi, you guys clear every Naruto condition. You have shadow clones, all the chakra you can drink, and the Fifth Hokage's secrets—which I'm guessing are how Naruto gets around those headaches and stuff Keiko sometimes gets after Snowflake gets reintegrated. If more clones means worse side-effects, it would explain why you never see people other than him with a lot of shadow clones, even when they're like the Hokage with his summoner chakra reserves.
 
I think the Bijou makes the check for him. I'm personally down for stealing one for Hazou but the thread at large isn't so shrugs

I feel it's less "The thread doesn't want to" and more "We recognize it would imply fight a minimum an S-ranker, requires several S-rank skills and capabilities, so talking about this now is useless". When Oro decided we were interesting, it was almost a game over because he was so far above us. The same reasoning works with a bijuu, only we don't want to kill a bijuu, but capture it.

I didn't say anything about betraying Hazou, but her taking power? And she can just lie to her if she decides to do something that would count as betraying Hazou. Also, Ami would 100% hurt Kei if she thought it was for her good, that's what she did in the first place.

And Ami can just select people she trusts.

My actual point is that FOOM is already out of our control.

Ami made a promise that she would never manipulate Kei again after the last time she tried. She could, but i put this possibility as "extremely improbable". More over, Kei and KEI aren't Ami and therefore not completely trustworthy, by keeping it secret she gets FOOM, by revealing it, she gets nothing, because we will probably put our foot down on "Not giving the shiny to Ami, even if it hurts us politically".
 
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I feel it's less "The thread doesn't want to" and more "We recognize it would imply fight a minimum an S-ranker, requires several S-rank skills and capabilities, so talking about this know it's basically useless". When Oro decided we were interesting, it was almost a game over because he was so far above us. The same reasoning works with the bijuu, only we don't to kill a bijuu, but capture it.
Han and Roshi are going to die soon. So we can do political maneuvering to make sure we get one. No need to directly fight them when we are the reason they will die
 
Happy Thanksgiving to all those who celebrate it! To the rest of you, happy Thursday. Either way, I hope it is full of good news and happy memories.
 
I haven't been following the discussion since the beginning, but I fear the people arguing for sharing FOOM are overlooking a major warfare principle:
Whatever dastardly weapon you devise for the advantage this round belongs to your adversary in the next.
The more people know about FOOM, the more possibilities there are for information leaks. Letting an institution learn is worse still, as the attack surface of the secret would grow in proportion to the institution's size.

Asuma will want to maximize the payoff, which means, ideally, FOOMing as many ninja as possible. Each ninja is an additional leak waiting to happen all by themselves, but it's much worse than just that. The process of training would be difficult to hide: a dozen instances of dozens of ninja, showing up somewhere every day and doing very visible activities. The infrastructure would be difficult to hide: all of them would need to travel to Noburi daily to refill chakra, and we'll need either to leech off genin or get a massive koi pool to support that. The effects would be difficult to hide: ninja pay attention to each other's capabilities all the time, and statistically significant divergences from the norm, especially if spread across many of Leaf's ninja, would be noted.

Asuma knows all of this, and he and the Nara would do their best to conceal it, yes. But there is only so much that could be done, and there are inevitable tradeoffs between scale and security. The only way to put the inevitable INFOSEC breach as far into the future as possible would be limiting FOOM to a select few ninja, but I'm not convinced this is the decision Asuma will come to. What's better for Leaf: a few S-rankers in five years, or many elite jounin and a horde of jounin in two?

And even if, somehow, it all stays well-hidden, the secret is guaranteed to get out if Leaf gets embroiled in another major conflict once FOOM is well underway, because the FOOMed ninja will use their full capabilities. (What's the alternative, after all? Not fight the war? Fight, but order your ninja to not use their full capabilities, to fail missions and die en masse in the name of secrecy?) The jig would be up, one way or another.

And then... Well, that depends on how far into the future this happens.
  1. If it's at the point where Leaf could take on the entire rest of the world, we'll need to immediately do that.
  2. If it's when we already have a solid number of FOOMed ninja, but not enough yet to steamroll over everyone at the same time, everyone bands together to steamroll over us. It will be worse than Whirlpool.
  3. If it's when we've only just begun FOOMing, the Shadow Clone Technique gets stolen and one or several other villages start FOOMing as well. It doesn't matter how well SC is being guarded, it will happen.
1 is less likely than 2 is less likely than 3. Outcomes-wise, 1 is okay, 2 is bad but manageable (we'll need to desert Leaf), and 3 is an utter disaster of unbelievable proportion.

The enemy intelligence services are not targeting the Gouketsu as heavily as they're targeting Leaf and Leaf's top brass, and the Gouketsu are plainly smaller. Whatever measures Asuma may use, FOOM is more secure with just us knowing, and we should probably keep it at that.

(I suspect watching the cobweb be blasted apart during scenario 3 would be extremely entertaining, though. I'm totally game if we want to give everyone metaphysical nukes, as long as that's what we're deliberately doing.)
 
Han and Roshi are going to die soon. So we can do political maneuvering to make sure we get one. No need to directly fight them when we are the reason they will die

Remember we're talking about 2 S-rankers.
Han and Roshi are not going anywhere near Naruto, Tsunade and Orochimaru unless they strike directly at Leaf, because Rock is not made of idiots and knows how important Jinchuuriki are. Asuma is not going to send Naruto/Tsunade/Orochimaru to attack Rock unless he has a way to keep Cloud in check and an actual plan that doesn't risk Leaf being annihilated.
The only possible way to kill them is the Summoning Army, but that requires approval from Asuma plus S-rankers deployment. Basically we're assuming we are going to kill two S-rankers, and i can understand why the thread answer is "Let's wait until said S-rankers are dead, before actually moving", that seems sensible, it's not like there is any time-sensitive political maneuvering we need to do at the moment.
 
I haven't been following the discussion since the beginning, but I fear the people arguing for sharing FOOM are overlooking a major warfare principle:

The more people know about FOOM, the more possibilities there are for information leaks. Letting an institution learn is worse still, as the attack surface of the secret would grow in proportion to the institution's size.

Asuma will want to maximize the payoff, which means, ideally, FOOMing as many ninja as possible. Each ninja is an additional leak waiting to happen all by themselves, but it's much worse than just that. The process of training would be difficult to hide: a dozen instances of dozens of ninja, showing up somewhere every day and doing very visible activities. The infrastructure would be difficult to hide: all of them would need to travel to Noburi daily to refill chakra, and we'll need either to leech off genin or get a massive koi pool to support that. The effects would be difficult to hide: ninja pay attention to each other's capabilities all the time, and statistically significant divergences from the norm, especially if spread across many of Leaf's ninja, would be noted.

Asuma knows all of this, and he and the Nara would do their best to conceal it, yes. But there is only so much that could be done, and there are inevitable tradeoffs between scale and security. The only way to put the inevitable INFOSEC breach as far into the future as possible would be limiting FOOM to a select few ninja, but I'm not convinced this is the decision Asuma will come to. What's better for Leaf: a few S-rankers in five years, or many elite jounin and a horde of jounin in two?

And even if, somehow, it all stays well-hidden, the secret is guaranteed to get out if Leaf gets embroiled in another major conflict once FOOM is well underway, because the FOOMed ninja will use their full capabilities. (What's the alternative, after all? Not fight the war? Fight, but order your ninja to not use their full capabilities, to fail missions and die en masse in the name of secrecy?) The jig would be up, one way or another.

And then... Well, that depends on how far into the future this happens.
  1. If it's at the point where Leaf could take on the entire rest of the world, we'll need to immediately do that.
  2. If it's when we already have a solid number of FOOMed ninja, but not enough yet to steamroll over everyone at the same time, everyone bands together to steamroll over us. It will be worse than Whirlpool.
  3. If it's when we've only just begun FOOMing, the Shadow Clone Technique gets stolen and one or several other villages start FOOMing as well. It doesn't matter how well SC is being guarded, it will happen.
1 is less likely than 2 is less likely than 3. Outcomes-wise, 1 is okay, 2 is bad but manageable (we'll need to desert Leaf), and 3 is an utter disaster of unbelievable proportion.

The enemy intelligence services are not targeting the Gouketsu as heavily as they're targeting Leaf and Leaf's top brass, and the Gouketsu are plainly smaller. Whatever measures Asuma may use, FOOM is more secure with just us knowing, and we should probably keep it at that.

(I suspect watching the cobweb be blasted apart during scenario 3 would be extremely entertaining, though. I'm totally game if we want to give everyone metaphysical nukes, as long as that's what we're deliberately doing.)

Asuma knows all of this, and he and the Nara would do their best to conceal it, yes.
Don't you think the Nara would recognize how grave of a threat the leak would pose and not immediately try to start sharing it?
 
an and Roshi are not going anywhere near Naruto, Tsunade and Orochimaru unless they strike directly at Leaf, because Rock is not made of idiots and knows how important Jinchuuriki are. Asuma is not going to send Naruto/Tsunade/Orochimaru to attack Rock unless he has a way to keep Cloud in check and an actual plan that doesn't risk Leaf being annihilated.
The only possible way to kill them is the Summoning Army, but that requires approval from Asuma plus S-rankers deployment. Basically we're assuming we are going to kill two S-rankers, and i can understand why the thread answer is "Let's wait until said S-rankers are dead, before actually moving", that seems sensible, it's not like there is any time-sensitive political maneuvering we need to do at the moment.
So, from what i understood of the things we could learn from this discussion, for the future.

-The hivemind should be more pro-active.
-The hivemind should actively try to make it's own plans capable of surviving bad odds and unforseen circumstances
-The hivemind should approve generalized solution in case of disagreements, instead of freezing.
-The hivemind should possibly create multiples idea to deal with problems.
-S-Rankers are bullshit.


This is one of the major problems I have with the playerbase. We refuse to do any work to seize opportunities that present themselves. There is a high probability that yes there will be two tailed beast free to grab. Having a discussion about how we should play the situation out isn't supported. Thus when it does happen we are on the back foot. Having done no prep work and having no ideas how we want to play it.
 
Actually Ami still thinks we need Noburi for CR and that we have a secret from the 5th Hokage to deal with clone sickness. So she knows that FOOM exist but she doesn't know the secret is just be Saitima about training your resolve

She still knows how it works. This only delays the whole thing to "once she is a Leaf ninja and has the technqiue".

In general, I am not arguing to give the secret away, just that the secret is already out of our hands. Most arguments assume that we have full control, but Ami is smart enough to collect more information and then decide how to act.

Ami made a promise that she would never manipulate Kei again after the last time she tried. She could, but i put this possibility as "extremely improbable". More over, Kei and KEI aren't Ami and therefore not completely trustworthy, by keeping it secret she gets FOOM, by revealing it, she gets nothing, because we will probably put our foot down on "Not giving the shiny to Ami, even if it hurts us politically".

By revealing it she gains multiple loyal people, because she is the reason that they are going to achive things they would never have without her.

And why would those people turn on Kei?

And how long are we trustworthy enough to keep FOOM? Damn she might kill us all, just to be sure! /s
 
This is one of the major problems I have with the playerbase. We refuse to do any work to seize opportunities that present themselves. There is a high probability that yes there will be two tailed beast free to grab. Having a discussion about how we should play the situation out isn't supported. Thus when it does happen we are on the back foot. Having done no prep work and having no ideas how we want to play it.

Respectfully speaking, this seems more a lack of understanding between us than any of points above. I'm not against your plan, i literally don't understand it. You did not explain it.
From what i understand at the moment is:
1) 2 S-rankers are going to die(How? When? What makes you so sure of that?It seems you consider this a statement of fact or something similar, but from where do you draw this confidence?)
2) The Tailed Beast will be up for grab(What makes you think that? What would be the situation in which you assume this statement to be true? Do we even know what happens when a Jinchuuriki dies?)
3) We could obtain the Tailed Beast with political manouvering.

No offence meant, you simply skipped over a lot of logical steps that could be clearto you, but are not to me, so i cannot say "Yes, let's follow this plan", because i have no evidence or arguments for it aside from "It's going to happen". This said, if you're willing to explain the reasoning behind it, we can see if it's feasible and prepare in advance for it.

By revealing it she gains multiple loyal people, because she is the reason that they are going to achive things they would never have without her.

And why would those people turn on Kei?

And how long are we trustworthy enough to keep FOOM? Damn she might kill us all, just to be sure! /s

Probably because we could explicitly cut her and any of her allies from it.
 
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Oh the "share FOOM" issue, I'd say there's at least one pretty big risk to not sharing it: when (not if) someone else has the idea (assuming they don't already have it), not having shared it when the Hokage ordered to go all-out and share all potentially OP ideas to win the war could be grounds for treason. Hell, the Nara, both because brains and shadow users, obviously have at least a roomful of files regarding SC synergies and yet-uncountered combinations and techniques.
I assume that Tsunade didn't just get as powerful as she is because she is more hard working than anyone else in the world. She's got to have some secret knowledge. And it's her right not to share it, as it is our right too as a Clan of Leaf. That's what the whole Clan Secrets law is about.
 
Do we even know what happens when a Jinchuuriki dies?
"Time marches on and all advantages fade. Leaf cannot afford to rest on its laurels; we must move constantly forward. Cloud is making overtures to Waterfall, which could perhaps bring the Seven-Tails back to enmity with us. The jinchūriki of the One-, Two-, and Three-Tailed Beasts were slain at Nagi Island; the beasts dispersed, but if history is any guide then they will reform soon enough and promptly be sealed into new jinchūriki, thereby making the nations of those jinchūriki far more powerful. Furthermore, we can presume that all of the other major nations are now capable of making skywalkers. Likewise, much of the diplomatic work of decades past has been undone, and Leaf must forge alliances and treaties anew.
 
Respectfully speaking, this seems more a lack of understanding between us than any of points above. I'm not against your plan, i literally don't understand it. You did not explain it.
From what i understand at the moment is:
1) 2 S-rankers are going to die(How? When? What makes you so sure of that?It seems you consider this a statement of fact or something similar, but from where do you draw this confidence?)
2) The Tailed Beast will be up for grab(What makes you think that? What would be the situation in which you assume this statement to be true? Do we even know what happens when a Jinchuuriki dies?)
3) We could obtain the Tailed Beast with political manouvering.

No offence meant, you simply skipped over a lot of logical steps that could be clearto you, but are not to me, so i cannot say "Yes, let's follow this plan", because i have no evidence or arguments for it aside from "It's going to happen". This said, if you're willing to explain the reasoning behind it, we can see if it's feasible and prepare in advance for it


  1. with access to the summoning army we will be launching a large scale assault against Rock itself. There is a very high likelihood that in that battle
  2. Leaf will actively want to gain control of the tailed beast, so either have them sealed in the battle or track them down when they reform
  3. Asuma at some point will have to make a decision on who to seal the tailed beast into. As a major political player in Leaf we will be able to influence that decision
Are these 100% certain to happen? No of course not. However potentially getting a shot at immediate S-rank is worth discussing in between updates. I didn't propose a plan because we are not at that stage. I want to try to generate ideas and make a discussion. Then after we spend some time talking about it we can decide if we want to spend plan space now to maneuver to be in a better position or what our strategy should be in case it does happen even if we do nothing to deal with it currently
 
I assume that Tsunade didn't just get as powerful as she is because she is more hard working than anyone else in the world. She's got to have some secret knowledge. And it's her right not to share it, as it is our right too as a Clan of Leaf. That's what the whole Clan Secrets law is about.
The three Sannin were prodigies in their own right, but yeah she definitely had help from secret stuff. That said, Jiraiya and Orochimaru were both clanless and if it were just a matter of clan secrets then you'd expect anyone with talent and a high loyalty rating (meaning all of ANBU at least) to be trained like Snuncle and Jiradad to maybe not equal, but comparable heights. They aren't, so there's something more to it that may not be explainable through mere clan lore.

Also, it's not a clan secret that the Wakahisa bloodline can distribute chakra water, or how SC works - that one's a state secret because kinjutsu, secret technique, information retrieval is super important yadda yadda, but not a clan one. Combining the two requires knowledge of both but only clan involvement is required, not clan secrets. We're not revealing Mist Drain or weird chakra retention seals.

This is what scares me.
 
Oh the "share FOOM" issue, I'd say there's at least one pretty big risk to not sharing it: when (not if) someone else has the idea (assuming they don't already have it), not having shared it when the Hokage ordered to go all-out and share all potentially OP ideas to win the war could be grounds for treason.
It's not a war winner b/c of Resolve opportunity costs and the timescale (less than a year). But also Asuma can't order us to share Clan Secrets. That would be the end of Leaf as an organized state. Is FOOM a Clan Secret? Hazou says it is and he's the Clan Head. So that tracks.

EDIT: My perspective, if a piece of information is known only to Clan members and the Clan Head declares it secret. It's a Clan Secret. The Resolve capstone vastly (instead of moderately) increasing growth rate is something that Hazou has figured out, it's not public information.
 
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