Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I definitely agree with all of thisBut I think the political ramifications are a part of the problem but not the main problem (and also the easiest to wave away as a social spec). As an example: If I convinced my brother in public (in front of strangers lets say) that he had gotten his girlfriend pregnant that would still be a shitty thing to do, even though there's no political harm in my case. The reputational harm to Akane and Hazou is just one branch of the way her message delivery was harmful: it was also emotionally harmful, and harmful since it disrespects their agency, as you also point out.
Basically my complaint is that we're leading with an ancillary issue (reputational harm) and specifically the ancillary issue that is easiest for her to dispute, instead of communicating the core issue (hurtful to us) which is indisputable. I'm not saying that the stuff you have in the plan shouldn't be there, I'm saying it should be there but as support for something that we're not currently saying in the plan: "you intentionally hurt us, and we want a relationship with you in which both parties value each others' happiness".
How do the below changes look? I haven't incorporated them yet (feels a bit wordy), just looking for feedback.
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Wow thanks for writing that up! I like the changes, especially the bit about being partners. I think maybe the discrepancy is higher level though... What's your overall aim with this conversation?
To me it seems like you're trying to explain to her how her actions were hurtful. But as a social spec jounin I think she knows this. I think what we need to communicate to her is that she should care about hurting us.
I think she's struggling with the concept of family, even if just extended family, and she needs to understand that she can't/shouldn't hurt people in that category, even if it seems efficient. This interpretation is supported by our interactions with her in Ch 377 and by Ami's general characterisation: doesn't care about anyone else except for Keiko, intrigued by her new relationship to Hazo.
Then again if the internal monologue we've been shown is accurate, she totally failed to grasp that Hazo would even mind what she did... Which would be a ludicrous failure to model others from a normal person, but an almost unthinkable oversight from a social spec jounin who's running rings around clan heads twice her age. But this interpretation is supported by her narration in Interlude: Conflict Resolution.
Personally I think it's more the former, but I don't think addressing these issues in the conversation is mutually exclusive: we just need to highlight that our relationship needs to involve us not hurting each other (if only because that makes Keiko happier) as well as explaining how she hurt us.
I think the changes you wrote up are improvements to both, but I think your plan already did a good job of explaining how she hurt us! So it's the improvements like the bit about partners that I think are more important to add.
Spector29
It Only Gets Worse From Here
Going back to the Sealing-as-Programming school of thought, portal seals spit you out in a random location. Uninitalized variables spit out a random value from somewhere in memory. In theory, if we could find how to set the location variable, we have control over our necromancy portals.
What seals have a predictable location variable? Storage seals. Kagome even mentioned being able to modify the unseal location. There might be a workable idea here. Something for the brighter minds to discuss.
What seals have a predictable location variable? Storage seals. Kagome even mentioned being able to modify the unseal location. There might be a workable idea here. Something for the brighter minds to discuss.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Is there a list somewhere of all the economic assets and deals and projects that the Gokētsu own? Or at least the ones that have been mentioned beyond abstraction?
I have a hard time keeping apart what was only planned bit not implemented by players, what was implemented but isn't done yet, what we own but is laying fallow or didn't pan out or is passively providing income and what is actively progressing and changing Leaf.
Also I have completely lost all touch regarding just how rich we are and how large our income is compared to that of other (major) clans. Or what constant and running costs we might have.
I have a hard time keeping apart what was only planned bit not implemented by players, what was implemented but isn't done yet, what we own but is laying fallow or didn't pan out or is passively providing income and what is actively progressing and changing Leaf.
Also I have completely lost all touch regarding just how rich we are and how large our income is compared to that of other (major) clans. Or what constant and running costs we might have.
Xilentxium
Existential Crisis Management
- Location
- Temperate Regions
Hmmm, yes those are indeed the first steps to becoming a Necromancer. Congrats Hazo, next we start digging up animals.
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
We aren't immediately pressed so time to focus on uplift.
[x] Action Plan: The Witchers
Words: 131
[x] Action Plan: The Witchers
Words: 131
- Study how to deal with most common chakra beasts
- What types are most common?
- How can they be most effectively killed?
- Compile guide for genin/civilians
- Brainstorm better ways to make sure they don't come back
- Investigate attempts to domesticate chakra beasts
- Is there anything that could be like a super dog for civilians to deal with low level threats
- Study if there are any cheap/common seals which would greatly increase elimination efforts of genin
- If so, make/distribute them
- Start making efforts toward specialized anti chakra beast team
- Study if a team of civilians with proper civilian useable seals could kill some of the more common chakra beasts.
- If so, see how difficult it would be to make civilian usable versions of those seals.
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Economics is pretty draining for the QMs so we aren't worrying about it. You're rich enough that you can do whatever you want below the "buy a country" level.
- Location
- Yes.
Is that a thing that can actually happen? As in, if we increased our $$$ we could buy Waterfalls?
- Location
- Liverpool
I mean, at some point with adequate wealth (and the resources behind it) you can buy pretty much anything. Leaf could probably buy a single small nation outright... At the cost of being too broke to defend themselves properly. I imagine the same applies for us.
Also, I love how many plans have sprouted up in less than a day. And for the first time in ages, I have no cause I feel the need to commit my vote to. It's very strange, but liberating.
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I agree that Ami thinking Hazou wouldn't mind is a huge slip, but that seems to be because her mental model of him was off. I think it was a mixture of arrogance ("Of course my mental model is right, when is it ever not?") and unconscious indifference ("and even if it is, who cares? They're just hurt feelings and I'll be able to smooth over that unlikely, hypothetical quibble with ease.")
So I'm trying to explain (what I believe to be) Hazou's reasoning for being as upset as he was. To help Ami adjust her mental model, so that Hazou and Ami can understand each other better, to come to a better working partnership. I'd already mentioned in part why Ami should care, but I expanded on it into the area of "enlightened self-interest."
Anyway, I haven't added the highlights into the main plan (feels too wordy). How does this look? Any feedback or suggestions?
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Makes sense. What about the not purely economic parts of our assets? The stuff that matters more widely than the Gokētsu purse I mean.
I know about the storage seal bank(s?), the elementary school, the small clinic the partial chocolate monopoly, the investment in tillnfills, the construction company of Akane's father, the terrible plot of land with the abandoned mine, and the seal-powered sawmill.
But I also recall a few things that we wanted to do, but I'm not sure about them ever having happened. Like are we a major producer of salt and/or ice already? And what's the state of the koi pond or the lost Mist nin that was supposed to set it up? Is the fire goat farm still a thing or have they all consumed each other? Are we using the barrier seals in any other cutting business than wood? And lastly, am I forgetting any of these that have been mentioned before and/or are there any that haven't been mentioned but you think we should know about anyway?
How does that compare to our estimates when it comes to the wealth of thr Hyūga or the Nara? Have we become the richest clan in Leaf?
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- Location
- Kiev, Ukraine
- Location
- Europe
Everything she did was intentional:
She basically wanted to hear: "Ok thanks for the advanced warning. Have a nice day" or something, she just ignored what most other people would do. And her mental model of Hazou wasn't even off, Hazou didn't plan any form of immediate retaliation.
Mari punished her for insulting Akane and disrespecting Hazou's Clan head status. My nicest interpretation here is that Ami considered Hazou a peer/friend and assumed he can just easily deal with the fallout (plus forgetting that there are other Goketsu that matter?)
The one time her model of Hazou was off was here:
Because here Ami is confused about Hazou actually caring.
Also Ami is fully willing of hurting other people, including family, like during the chunnin exams where she tried to cut ties with Keiko, where she wanted to do it for Keiko's protection.
What we should adress with her is that she can't always ignore us for what she believes is a good idea, she did fail with Keiko, Ren and Mari. But I doubt she is going to respect Hazou's arguments. (When it involves us I mean, she is clearly capable on her own)
(Also no apologizing for what Mari did)
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- Location
- Europe
Forgot voting:
[X] Action Plan: CHAOS Control
@Shrooms , just to clear things up:
The idea (well mine) was to buy the grape land because the Amori wanted to buy the land (they got some wine making license and so the land should have value, we would get it from the Kurusu clan auction and then give it to those guys:
Maybe also the Amori but getting two adoption slots is pretty ambitious and the Amori might just simple refuse.
Shiho will probably take it, but the Amori? Eh.
[X] Action Plan: CHAOS Control
@Shrooms , just to clear things up:
The idea (well mine) was to buy the grape land because the Amori wanted to buy the land (they got some wine making license and so the land should have value, we would get it from the Kurusu clan auction and then give it to those guys:
Maybe also the Amori but getting two adoption slots is pretty ambitious and the Amori might just simple refuse.
Shiho will probably take it, but the Amori? Eh.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
Ha? As in "Ha, we wish" or "Ha, isn't it awesome that there's now a good reason to assume this"?
- Location
- Yes.
- Location
- United States
Well, Kagome can still do that (as seen in Chapter 74). Hazo doesn't actually know that though, so it's hard to exploit this ability within the confines of the story. Plus, it might be a really bad idea to bring attention to the fact that Kagome still has this ability and can remember everything.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Well... Wouldn't Hazou just forget right after noticing that? Remember how everyone else forgets, records get destroyed, etc.
- Location
- Raleigh, NC
In that case, perhaps we should focus on mass producing the some high yield seals?
- Location
- The state of Paranoia
Bear in mind that Ami did apologize, she just did it in that weird social spec way:
Looks great!
And you've convinced me that giving her the benefit of the doubt that she didn't even understand that this would be hurtful is a good thing to do! I still think that the "unconscious indifference to hurting us" is a big part of it though so I'm glad this plan addresses both sides
If looking to cut sections, I think the last bit of the yellow additions (the "Exasperated" bullet) is conveyed better by the blue additions so you could take that bullet out maybe? Also, I still think that any social spec will be able to model reputational harm better than we can (even if they are susceptible to forgetting that there are real people behind the pieces in their complex plots), so if we want to save space I think we could just say something like "and I think it's obvious why Akane & I would find such a rumour damaging to our reputations" instead of explaining it all out.
E: Seen @ContextBot 's post quoting where Ami essentially says she fully understands what offense she was causing (and is offended that we would think she wouldn't), so I'm back to having less confidence in the "failed to model Hazou" theory and more in the "failed to care about Hazou/Akane's wellbeing" one. Either way as long as the plan addresses both I'm happy.
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- Location
- Kiev, Ukraine
The former. As my investor friend likes to say: " I know not of anything more striking than compound interest".
We may have gained a lot of capital in the very short term, but other clans had dozens of years to reinvest their fortunes. I assume we are in the upper quartile of richest Leaf's clans, but being the richest is unrealistic from my pov. Which to say is backed up by my bachelor's degree in economics.
Eisenhelm
gran dutch of douchery
- Location
- Colombia
well, first time comenting on this plataform, i am not sure of the protocol for sugestions from a newcome who just binged the whole story so bear whit me. that out of the way i just wanted to give my two cents on jonin aura.
i think that the bloodline limit is missleading, so far most people whit killing inten have been clanless. in itachi's case i tink is because he considers his cheeting eyeballs to be esential to his identity, same as the will of fire is for the sarutobi. if we follow this line of logic (that may be flaw) the joning aura manifest has something that is essential to your being, if you sudently lost it, the being that inabits your body would no longe be you. a hazo whitout the iron nerv is still hazo.
so what is the manifestation of everytingh that he is?, the sky.
is hard to express how much sense this makes without getting into a speech, but is perfect for his ideology, is perfect for his caracter, is perfect in the sence that he could use that neat trick that sarutobi senior and jr love so much, you either stay in line or suffer.
you either uphold to the uplif ideal in wich case the aura is just wander and sunrises as the whiew from a skytower or you try to act againts it and a enless fall awaits you.
edit: has instead of as.
i think that the bloodline limit is missleading, so far most people whit killing inten have been clanless. in itachi's case i tink is because he considers his cheeting eyeballs to be esential to his identity, same as the will of fire is for the sarutobi. if we follow this line of logic (that may be flaw) the joning aura manifest has something that is essential to your being, if you sudently lost it, the being that inabits your body would no longe be you. a hazo whitout the iron nerv is still hazo.
so what is the manifestation of everytingh that he is?, the sky.
is hard to express how much sense this makes without getting into a speech, but is perfect for his ideology, is perfect for his caracter, is perfect in the sence that he could use that neat trick that sarutobi senior and jr love so much, you either stay in line or suffer.
you either uphold to the uplif ideal in wich case the aura is just wander and sunrises as the whiew from a skytower or you try to act againts it and a enless fall awaits you.
edit: has instead of as.
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- Location
- Italy
[X] Action Plan: CHAOS Control
This said, it's time for plan necromancy!
[X]Action Plan: Eldritch Cooperation 2.0
Wordcount: 240
This said, it's time for plan necromancy!
[X]Action Plan: Eldritch Cooperation 2.0
Wordcount: 240
- Ami
- Does she knows why you were angry?
- Her answer is probably "emotions".
- No, you were angry because you understood her actions.
- Actions shows priorities, and her priorities are such that inflicting pain for her own plans is a negligible variable
- A minimal decrease in efficiency for the emotional benefit of any of Goketsu isn't worth it.
- What message does this send?
- If someone showed this existential disregard for Keiko, what would she do?
- Normally it's ok. Because ninja. But she forgets the fact we're family
- the relationship of "mutually beneficial relationship between two neutral entities" is easy.
- But we're not just that, otherwise things wouldn't be so difficult.
- We're something new, that requires change and different priorities, from both of us.
- Not repeating old patterns because it's safer
- And yes, it's a pain. Welcome to the party.
- Unless in her priorities we simply do not exist. In that case, it's just a matter of you giving her misplaced trust.
- You would offer a peace offering, but there is nothing to offer, because:
- As family, if she really needs help, we'll help her regardless. Because normal rules don't apply.
- This said, you want to organize a relaxing family dinner and an optimization meeting for her….plan.
- Does she knows why you were angry?
- Reactive Armor
- Dedicate a few hours of Hazou Prime's time daily to working with Kagome on Reactive Armor seals
- Misc
- Send a Hazou clone to help the skyslider team a few hours a day.
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