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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Noumero said:
Nope! I know that you, on the contrary, haven't read it.

Wait, now that I'm remembering, I think @Dissonance had said she didn't finish it either. I was referring to
Twig.
Twig's plot is centred around a colonial revolution against a biopunk!Britain ruled by sociopathic posthuman nobles-turned-experiments and mad bioengineers who created them (Orochimaru would have felt right at home there, come to think of it). Its last arc, named "Crown of Thorns", involves the main characters taking over the colony — after it was reduced to ashes by war, WMD deployment, and a superintelligence-generated superplague.

In addition, at that point the protagonist is experiencing identity death caused by long-term abuse of intelligence-enhancing drugs; more specifically, the mental models he used to predict his enemies' actions start acting independently, merge, and eventually replace his own personality, at which point he starts referring to himself using royal "we". It's all exceptionally unsettling.
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Your attention to details causes some non-negligible positive level of warm fuzzies.

Yes, we've read Twig, to approximately halfway (?) through that last arc. Unfortunately stopped due to life events and didn't remember enough to make resuming a feasible option, and are far enough behind on "The List of Media To Consume" that we'll probably not get around to it barring some form of functional immortality.

It does say something though, that Sy is a treasured character among those kept in our shambles of memory.
 
[] Protoplan: 1 hour Rally.
First order of business is get in contact with Naruto. Send Akane to get him, or at minimum inform him of the current situation. Oro is back, and he wants your clan head spot bro.

Convene with the clan, naruto if he's there.
To Keiko>Oro is dangerous, but potentially brings a lot of utility to us, leaf, and the world in general
To Nobby>Gouketsu is unique in that they could work alongside Oro, rather than sabotaging or ignoring like other clans will.
To Mari>Oro's gonna be Oro, we shouldn't pass up the opportunity to influence him to more altruistic means.
To Kagome>Uncle I love you, but please don't try to explode snake man unless we all ask you to.

Second topic with clan, convince Oro to join without taking over. Much easier if Naruto is already in clan/clan head. Have Mari spitball ideas(legal precedent of creating branch families, conversation routes, concessions) at Keiko to optimize while we get ninja!first aid from nobby.

Even if he kicks us off the compound, we have other land. Ask Keiko to consider the logistics of moving our civvies there. (Is the plan even worth optimizing, would it be better to simply get a new compound etc.)
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I think a play we could make here would be to quickly adopt Naruto, then have Naruto send us as his ambassador equivalent. That way we can actually lean on S rank strength in our arguments. Not sure if ninja jesus would go for it though. We could play dirty and ask Naruto if he wants Jiraiya back, thoughthats a 50/50 between a rasengan in our face and getting our way.

Feel free to take and/or modify any of this for other plans friends. Snuncle is big shiny, lets gettum.
 
Dissonance said:
[we] are far enough behind on "The List of Media To Consume" that we'll probably not get around to it barring some form of functional immortality.
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Years ago, I started playing a game in which I asked people a certain question. The question changed over the years, evolving based on the responses I got. The progress went something like this:

1) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, you will never die. Do you take it?"

2) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, you will never die unless you want to. Do you take it?"

3) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, you will never age again. You can still die if you're hit by a truck or whatever, but you won't die of old age. Do you take it?"

4) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, it will reset your body to whatever age you like and then you will never age again. You can still die if you're hit by a truck or whatever, but you won't die of old age. Do you take it?"

5) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, it will reset your body to whatever age you like and then you will never age or get sick again. Yes, that includes not getting cancer. You can still die if you're hit by a truck or whatever, but you won't die of old age or disease. Do you take it?"

6) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, it will reset your body to whatever age you like and then you will never age or get sick again. Yes, that includes not getting cancer. You can still die if you're hit by a truck or whatever, but you won't die of old age or disease. Also, the pill has been thoroughly studied and is completely and 100% free of side effects. Do you take it?"

7) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, it will reset your body to whatever age you like and then you will never age or get sick again. Yes, that includes not getting cancer. You can still die if you're hit by a truck or whatever, but you won't die of old age or disease. Also, the pill has been thoroughly studied and is completely safe and 100% free of side effects. Also, there are enough pills that everyone in the world who wants one can have one, as can everyone who will ever be born. Do you take it?"

I kept adding things in to deal with the most common objections because I was curious what it would take to get the percent of "Yes" answers above 50%.

I still haven't managed it.

The most common objections that I get now are:

A) "I don't want to live forever. Everyone should die eventually."
and
B) "It would get boring after a while."


Answer A) scares the crap out of me, especially since one of my close family holds that opinion. The relative in question cannot explain why they have that feeling, but they do.

Answer B) is just boggling to me, especially because it is absolutely immune to resolution. Pointing out that media is produced far faster than it can be consumed does not help. Pointing out that there are always new things to learn does not help. Pointing out that compound interest will eventually mean that you're rich enough that you don't have to work and can go travel the world or do whatever you want doesn't help.

It's utterly boggling, and also a bit infuriating.


This has been your random weekend conversational detour. We now return you to your regularly scheduled ninja deathworld.
 
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eaglejarl said:
B) "It would get boring after a while."
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That's like asking when I should take a bathroom break next week. It's a stupid question.

eaglejarl said:
Answer B) is just boggling to me, especially because it is absolutely immune to resolution. Pointing out that media is produced far faster than it can be consumed does not help. Pointing out that there are always new things to learn does not help. Pointing out that compound interest will eventually mean that you're rich enough that you don't have to work and can go travel the world or do whatever you want doesn't help.
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Human memories are not like computer memory. We forget, and our memories can get corrupt over time.
 
eaglejarl said:
I kept adding things in to deal with the most common objections because I was curious what it would take to get the percent of "Yes" answers above 50%.
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Funny, I was answering "Yes" from the second one. In fact I would prefer the second pill if it comes with appropriate healing.

Then again, I'd sell my humanity for pseudo-immortality in about 5 seconds. ...and I'd wonder why anyone thought my humanity was worth that. Not true immortality though. Living forever unable to die is not fun, eventually.
 
eaglejarl said:
7) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, it will reset your body to whatever age you like and then you will never age or get sick again. Yes, that includes not getting cancer. You can still die if you're hit by a truck or whatever, but you won't die of old age or disease. Also, the pill has been thoroughly studied and is completely safe and 100% free of side effects. Also, there are enough pills that everyone in the world who wants one can have one, as can everyone who will ever be born. Do you take it?"
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Yes. Could I get regeneration on top of this so I don't also die from Truck accidents?
 
eaglejarl said:
Years ago, I started playing a game in which I asked people a certain question. The question changed over the years, evolving based on the responses I got. The progress went something like this:

1) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, you will never die. Do you take it?"

2) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, you will never die unless you want to. Do you take it?"

3) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, you will never age again. You can still die if you're hit by a truck or whatever, but you won't die of old age. Do you take it?"

4) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, it will reset your body to whatever age you like and then you will never age again. You can still die if you're hit by a truck or whatever, but you won't die of old age. Do you take it?"

5) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, it will reset your body to whatever age you like and then you will never age or get sick again. Yes, that includes not getting cancer. You can still die if you're hit by a truck or whatever, but you won't die of old age or disease. Do you take it?"

6) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, it will reset your body to whatever age you like and then you will never age or get sick again. Yes, that includes not getting cancer. You can still die if you're hit by a truck or whatever, but you won't die of old age or disease. Also, the pill has been thoroughly studied and is completely and 100% free of side effects. Do you take it?"

7) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, it will reset your body to whatever age you like and then you will never age or get sick again. Yes, that includes not getting cancer. You can still die if you're hit by a truck or whatever, but you won't die of old age or disease. Also, the pill has been thoroughly studied and is completely safe and 100% free of side effects. Also, there are enough pills that everyone in the world who wants one can have one, as can everyone who will ever be born. Do you take it?"

I kept adding things in to deal with the most common objections because I was curious what it would take to get the percent of "Yes" answers above 50%.

I still haven't managed it.

The most common objections that I get now are:

A) "I don't want to live forever. Everyone should die eventually."
and
B) "It would get boring after a while."


Answer A) scares the crap out of me, especially since once of my close family holds that opinion. The relative in question cannot explain why they have that feeling, but they do.

Answer B) is just boggling to me, especially because it is absolutely immune to resolution. Pointing out that media is produced far faster than it can be consumed does not help. Pointing out that there are always new things to learn does not help. Pointing out that compound interest will eventually mean that you're rich enough that you don't have to work and can go travel the world or do whatever you want doesn't help.

It's utterly boggling, and also a bit infuriating.


This has been your random weekend conversational detour. We now return you to your regularly scheduled ninja deathworld.
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something something make sure the pill isn't a trick something something screaming in paranoid
 
If I had objections to the immortality pill, it would be more socio-political ones: It's important that people die, so change can occur: No stagnation and control by immortal elites ala Gods. I certainly would not personally object to being immortal or being one of those Immortal Elite Gods.
 
eaglejarl said:
A) "I don't want to live forever. Everyone should die eventually."
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Yup, I got that response from my now girlfriend before we started dating, it drew a hpmor style 'death is the enemy' rant out of me lol.

Like, we value death as a concept because if we don't existential terror will absolutely crush us. That doesn't mean death is actually good.
 
Shard said:
If I had objections to the immortality pill, it would be more socio-political ones: It's important that people die, so change can occur: No stagnation and control by immortal elites ala Gods. I certainly would not personally object to being immortal or being one of those Immortal Elite Gods.
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Personality and memory drift is a change. Even the immortal changes.

Plus, we had relative stagnation for thousand of years with little to show for it until the modern era. That had little to do with how many old people are resistant to changes.

Arguably, we have the greatest number of old people in the world today, and I don't think you could blame them for playing a role in stagnation.
 
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Shard said:
If I had objections to the immortality pill, it would be more socio-political ones: It's important that people die, so change can occur: No stagnation and control by immortal elites ala Gods. I certainly would not personally object to being immortal or being one of those Immortal Elite Gods.
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I recognize your point regarding the potential negative socio-political implications of immortality but I would question whether these negative consequences can possibly be worse than a 100% fatality rate for all of humanity.

A lot of the commentary in fiction and political science regarding the pursuit of species wide immortality seems like it veers wildly between a utopia or a dystopia with no attempt to develop something that seems actually plausible and compares the pros to the cons.
 
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eaglejarl said:
Years ago, I started playing a game in which I asked people a certain question. The question changed over the years, evolving based on the responses I got. The progress went something like this:

1) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, you will never die. Do you take it?"

2) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, you will never die unless you want to. Do you take it?"

3) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, you will never age again. You can still die if you're hit by a truck or whatever, but you won't die of old age. Do you take it?"

4) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, it will reset your body to whatever age you like and then you will never age again. You can still die if you're hit by a truck or whatever, but you won't die of old age. Do you take it?"

5) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, it will reset your body to whatever age you like and then you will never age or get sick again. Yes, that includes not getting cancer. You can still die if you're hit by a truck or whatever, but you won't die of old age or disease. Do you take it?"

6) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, it will reset your body to whatever age you like and then you will never age or get sick again. Yes, that includes not getting cancer. You can still die if you're hit by a truck or whatever, but you won't die of old age or disease. Also, the pill has been thoroughly studied and is completely and 100% free of side effects. Do you take it?"

7) "Here's a pill. [hands them an imaginary pill] If you take it, it will reset your body to whatever age you like and then you will never age or get sick again. Yes, that includes not getting cancer. You can still die if you're hit by a truck or whatever, but you won't die of old age or disease. Also, the pill has been thoroughly studied and is completely safe and 100% free of side effects. Also, there are enough pills that everyone in the world who wants one can have one, as can everyone who will ever be born. Do you take it?"

I kept adding things in to deal with the most common objections because I was curious what it would take to get the percent of "Yes" answers above 50%.

I still haven't managed it.

The most common objections that I get now are:

A) "I don't want to live forever. Everyone should die eventually."
and
B) "It would get boring after a while."


Answer A) scares the crap out of me, especially since once of my close family holds that opinion. The relative in question cannot explain why they have that feeling, but they do.

Answer B) is just boggling to me, especially because it is absolutely immune to resolution. Pointing out that media is produced far faster than it can be consumed does not help. Pointing out that there are always new things to learn does not help. Pointing out that compound interest will eventually mean that you're rich enough that you don't have to work and can go travel the world or do whatever you want doesn't help.

It's utterly boggling, and also a bit infuriating.


This has been your random weekend conversational detour. We now return you to your regularly scheduled ninja deathworld.
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I'm mainly surprised you went from "won't die unless you want to" to "will still be killed through bodily trauma", since I imagine far more people will be killed in gunfights or by starvation or what have you than the number of people under going eternal torture because they refuse to give up and die.

I would personally prefer the widespread immortality from number 7 combined with the immortality given in number 2, although that also comes with sweeping socioeconomic concerns in the long term.
 
There's a bunch of 'lessons' that trouted why immortality is bad. Wonder how strong their influence on the population.

There isn't a whole lot of "immortality" is a good thing.
 
I'm curious as to the jump from 6 to 7. Giving one person immortality is significantly different than giving everyone immortality. That's one of the things that might shift me from a 'yes' to a 'no', actually.
 
Heleor said:
I'm curious as to the jump from 6 to 7. Giving one person immortality is significantly different than giving everyone immortality. That's one of the things that might shift me from a 'yes' to a 'no', actually.
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My bet is that people kept complaining that they'd outlive all their friends and loved ones so EJ made it so that none of their friends or loved ones would have to die either.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
My bet is that people kept complaining that they'd outlive all their friends and loved ones so EJ made it so that none of their friends or loved ones would have to die either.
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"can we have enough for all of the people we care about, and enough for them to have enough for the people that they care about, and enough for *them* to have enough for the people they care about and..."
 
eaglejarl said:
I kept adding things in to deal with the most common objections because I was curious what it would take to get the percent of "Yes" answers above 50%.

I still haven't managed it.

The most common objections that I get now are:

A) "I don't want to live forever. Everyone should die eventually."
and
B) "It would get boring after a while."
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You should be asking them whether they will take a super healthy life extension pill that only lasts for 2 centuries, 5 centuries, a million years or whatever. Instead of asking them whether people ought to die instead ask them how long people people ought to live before death is forced on them.
 
They tackle this in 'Altered Carbon'.

A lot of morality and social mores become a lot more flexible/breakable without the fear of death and the afterlife.

Some people just wouldn't cope.

Hell, a lot of folks can't cope with handling their emails or smartphones. A lot of them-as morbid as this sounds- plan on checking out peacefully and getting out of the baggage and stress of life.

That's the jaded view, IMO.
 
We hand you a pill. It promises immortality. You refuse.

We hand you a pill. It contains an eject button. You press it immediately, refusing.

We hand you a pill. Time stands still, with you immortal, at its center. Your refusal reverberates.

We hand you a pill. Time loops back on itself, then waits patiently for you like a trained animal. We plead with you. You refuse again.

We hand you a pill. It promises the most tasteful perfection, unbounded by such simple things as unbounded internal growth. Your refusal and subsequent two-boxing was predicted by Omega.

Quirrel Loops repeatedly to find a way to make you accept a pill. He fails. The Interstitial is Eternal. All Hail Refusal.

We hand you a refusal. You refuse. The universe worries about you.

You hand us a pill. It promises Death. You are too late. We counteroffer with a milkshake. It repeats political slogans from the 90s. You accept. Upon finding the pill in the bottom of your milkshake, you make yourself vomit it back up. Street urchins cry softly. We are on our knees.

We agree to exchange pills. We pretend to take yours. Aumann is upset. It is a lie. You have pretended to take ours. Time stops, regardless of our wishes. An endlessly shrieking Kowyudsky is found. Your descendants disapprove. Their silence is deafening. We hand you a pill, tears streaming down our face. You are resolute. A burger cradles a forgotten pill softly. Where we were is now the location of a picture of a pill. You refuse the picture. The universe screams in F Sharp.

You refuse.
 
Icehawk78 said:
Put a storage seal on the inside so that you don't have to worry about cleanup, too. Gotta stay on brand, after all.
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Didn't Ino already do that?

Twinnstars said:
Like, we value death as a concept because if we don't existential terror will absolutely crush us. That doesn't mean death is actually good.
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True, although it also doesn't meat mean death is bad. In morality at some point you just take certain beliefs a priori. You can argue biologically/evolutionary some moralities are more likely to occur but that doesn't make them correct.

eaglejarl said:
I kept adding things in to deal with the most common objections because I was curious what it would take to get the percent of "Yes" answers above 50%.
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Perhaps add everyone else in the world has already taken the pill centuries ago. And that if you don't take it you'll forcefeed them it and torture them eternally.
 
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