Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
In terms of 'should' and 'ought', we shouldn't need any incentive structure in order to make short plans for the ease of the QMs. In terms of practicalities, we clearly need incentives to push us to making shorter plans, and the incentives must be sufficiently compelling or else they just won't work.
I don't think the middle ground, that we need incentives to do what we already should but should treat any incentive as sufficient to persuade us, is tenable.
That said, there are other, more subtle benefits to having short plans. The QMs have previously stated that a decent chunk of their XP/day estimations for a given update come from 1) How much they liked the plan, and 2) How good a mood they're in. On both these fields a short and clear plan outperforms a longer and more complex plan, so short plans get us more XP. Furthermore, short clear plans take fewer spoons for QMs to interpret and plan scenes from, allowing for longer, more fleshed out scenes, or even another scene in the update that would otherwise have to have been cut.
I think that even disregarding the explicit rewards for short plans we have sufficient incentive to make our plans short, even if some of those incentives are subtle and easily overlooked. However, I also agree that some things just need more than a few brief lines of explanation, and while we still want to be concise and clear that does not mean we should always toe the reward line. If being concise and clear on our research proposal to Kabuto takes up a lot of space but is as short and clear as we can reasonably make it without sacrificing key information, that'll have to do. What we should not get in the habit of is saying that because we can't make it super short, we shouldn't optimize for clear and concise at all.
- Location
- Snakesden
I think Kage usually don't go through with the breeding plan for three reasons: internal dissent, temporarily weakening their military, and inviting pre-emptive attacks or arms races from their opponents.
The first is just a cost Ren's eating. Note that she's uniquely vulnerable to cries of hypocrisy, as a young skillful bloodline kunoichi who, according to Shin, has never planned on having kids. She might eat that cost too, but I'd guess her plan won't involve her personally spending all her time having kids. (And if it does, that's a heavy cost she eats at a personal level.)
On another personal note, she'd have to try pretty damn hard to avoid Hana defecting to Leaf--even if she succeeds, that's a dead sister on her hands.
And, as someone mentioned, the precedent of Leaf taking in Mist missing-nin already works against her here.
The second I assume she'd get around via mutual-defense treaties with Mist's trade partners: protection now in return for ninja later. Note that she benefits from Mist's weak military position and strong diplomatic position. Weak military means their allies don't have to worry about Mist "altering the deal" when time comes for them to pay up, especially because Mist will have Leaf breathing down their neck. Mist's control of trade means they have bargaining chips in hand right now, and Ren's supremely suited to spending those well. Meanwhile, Leaf might not have the power to threaten Mist and its supporters combined.
The third, as Jiraiya mentions, is less of a cost because p(get rekt) is already high for Mist.
Tractability-wise, getting Naruto back indirectly helps with 2. Strenthening ties with Mist makes 3 more relevant. We probably can't do much about 1 directly, but maybe we could leverage our yakuza contacts to some end there?*
The @Radvic in me is compelled to note that firing off nukes as a warning shot could make Leaf's threats more forceful. The @Vecht in me is compelled to note that the threat of repeatedly ressurecting and torturing Mist-nin postwar could be much more powerful than the simple threat of death. (Sobbing in Brian Tomasik.)
*I guess "loudly continue existing" is an answer? Let's show off in the tournament and remind people that if things get bad enough in Mist, being awesome defectors to Leaf is always an option.
The first is just a cost Ren's eating. Note that she's uniquely vulnerable to cries of hypocrisy, as a young skillful bloodline kunoichi who, according to Shin, has never planned on having kids. She might eat that cost too, but I'd guess her plan won't involve her personally spending all her time having kids. (And if it does, that's a heavy cost she eats at a personal level.)
On another personal note, she'd have to try pretty damn hard to avoid Hana defecting to Leaf--even if she succeeds, that's a dead sister on her hands.
And, as someone mentioned, the precedent of Leaf taking in Mist missing-nin already works against her here.
The second I assume she'd get around via mutual-defense treaties with Mist's trade partners: protection now in return for ninja later. Note that she benefits from Mist's weak military position and strong diplomatic position. Weak military means their allies don't have to worry about Mist "altering the deal" when time comes for them to pay up, especially because Mist will have Leaf breathing down their neck. Mist's control of trade means they have bargaining chips in hand right now, and Ren's supremely suited to spending those well. Meanwhile, Leaf might not have the power to threaten Mist and its supporters combined.
The third, as Jiraiya mentions, is less of a cost because p(get rekt) is already high for Mist.
Tractability-wise, getting Naruto back indirectly helps with 2. Strenthening ties with Mist makes 3 more relevant. We probably can't do much about 1 directly, but maybe we could leverage our yakuza contacts to some end there?*
The @Radvic in me is compelled to note that firing off nukes as a warning shot could make Leaf's threats more forceful. The @Vecht in me is compelled to note that the threat of repeatedly ressurecting and torturing Mist-nin postwar could be much more powerful than the simple threat of death. (Sobbing in Brian Tomasik.)
*I guess "loudly continue existing" is an answer? Let's show off in the tournament and remind people that if things get bad enough in Mist, being awesome defectors to Leaf is always an option.
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Initial reactions:
* Interesting, and creative
* I'm a little cautious on the general idea; could be very useful, could be unnecessary and not-profitable complexity
* 0-5 is probably too fine-grained. 0-3 (don't care at all, low, medium, high) makes more sense
2:6? I thought this was 0-5?
I'll respond to the specific plan later, as that will require more thought.
Ugh. I was literally falling asleep as I wrote that. Fixed, thanks.Also, I think there's some typos in that last sentence
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
So... honestly I'm not really all that concerned about the breeding program, and neither should the rest of us be.
Why? Because it guarantees at least 10 years of peace. If we don't come up with seven different ways to win a war by then, and at least a few of which we can show of publically, then I will be very dissapointed in us.
Why? Because it guarantees at least 10 years of peace. If we don't come up with seven different ways to win a war by then, and at least a few of which we can show of publically, then I will be very dissapointed in us.
I think we had beaten to death just how bad and unlikely the idea of a breeding program is for Mist.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Yes. I am exploring the possibility that it does happen and explaining why it wouldn't be that bad.
- Location
- Milky Way
[X] Action Plan: Get the Ball Rolling.
@MMKII While Noburi probably won't take it badly, I still think it would be important to check if he's okay with it out of courtesy.
So in place of
>Would it be helpful if we have Noburi fill Jiraiya up from his own reserves to maximize his Shadow Clone use?
wouldn't
>Would it be helpful if we ask Noburi to fill Jiraiya up from his own reserves to maximize his Shadow Clone use?
be better?
Maybe I am nitpicking, but Hazou has Agency problems and Noburi doesn't like being treated as a Chakra battery.
@MMKII While Noburi probably won't take it badly, I still think it would be important to check if he's okay with it out of courtesy.
So in place of
>Would it be helpful if we have Noburi fill Jiraiya up from his own reserves to maximize his Shadow Clone use?
wouldn't
>Would it be helpful if we ask Noburi to fill Jiraiya up from his own reserves to maximize his Shadow Clone use?
be better?
Maybe I am nitpicking, but Hazou has Agency problems and Noburi doesn't like being treated as a Chakra battery.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I would go farther than that and actually, uh, ask Noburi before asking Jiraiya
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
A reminder that the purpose of Hazō's agency is to compensate for lack of players' setting knowledge, not for poor decisions. There may or may not be some leniency, but ultimately that's down to arbitrary QM decision (influenced by factors such as mood and general evilness level), and not part of the pact made with the players.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
A vote that as brief as that strikes me (personally, with no intentional implications otherwise) as something to the effect of an invasive thought or brief Kagome-ism going through Hazou's head, though as you mentioned it wouldn't reflect on the pact made either way.
Now, if it was 800 words about how we (attempted to) murder Tsunade, it'd certainly be a bit different. I'd also be a lot more upset about what I would see as a defection against everything both the players and QMs have made of this quest up to this point (setting aside that it wasn't an X, people could see it as legitimate option, then).
Bonus XP for Short Plans
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
PSA: New Bonus XP experiment
It's clear that no one finds the existing "bonus XP for short plans" motivating, and we're already starting to see plans creeping back up towards the hard-to-handle sizes of yesteryear. As such, we're going to try something new. Short plans will get bonus XP that goes straight into the general fund, while egregiously long plans will be penalized.
Prior experience shows that 300-350 words is plenty for a concise, well-written plan that covers as much as we can manage to write for one update. With that in mind:
0-300 words: +1 XP
301-400: +0
401-500: -1
...etc
Word counts will be determined by Google Docs since the SV counter includes tags in its total, which is not fair to you. Please do not try to game the system by (e.g.) replacing "and" with "&", as that would make us sad.
Given that these rules are being announced partway through a voting cycle, we won't be charging penalty points on this one -- you'll either get +1 or +0.
After this update, we'll run the experiment as written for another 3 updates (i.e. it will include this Thursday, Sunday, Thursday, Sunday) and then reexamine to see if we want to continue as-is or change something.
We're a little concerned about XP inflation and can see some exploits / failure modes in the proposed system, but they may not be anything we need to worry about in practice. We'd also like to get your feedback once we've had a chance to see how it works.
As a final note: 4 XP / day is supposed to be an above-average plan, and updates have been covering a very small number of days lately, often <= 1, so getting a nearly-guaranteed +1 XP per plan is a pretty significant boost. I recognize that people might react badly to the potential for negative points, but I am extremely confident that that will never actually happen. Prior evidence shows that 500 words is far more than actually necessary for a good plan.
How does this seem to all of you?
It's clear that no one finds the existing "bonus XP for short plans" motivating, and we're already starting to see plans creeping back up towards the hard-to-handle sizes of yesteryear. As such, we're going to try something new. Short plans will get bonus XP that goes straight into the general fund, while egregiously long plans will be penalized.
Prior experience shows that 300-350 words is plenty for a concise, well-written plan that covers as much as we can manage to write for one update. With that in mind:
0-300 words: +1 XP
301-400: +0
401-500: -1
...etc
Word counts will be determined by Google Docs since the SV counter includes tags in its total, which is not fair to you. Please do not try to game the system by (e.g.) replacing "and" with "&", as that would make us sad.
Given that these rules are being announced partway through a voting cycle, we won't be charging penalty points on this one -- you'll either get +1 or +0.
After this update, we'll run the experiment as written for another 3 updates (i.e. it will include this Thursday, Sunday, Thursday, Sunday) and then reexamine to see if we want to continue as-is or change something.
We're a little concerned about XP inflation and can see some exploits / failure modes in the proposed system, but they may not be anything we need to worry about in practice. We'd also like to get your feedback once we've had a chance to see how it works.
As a final note: 4 XP / day is supposed to be an above-average plan, and updates have been covering a very small number of days lately, often <= 1, so getting a nearly-guaranteed +1 XP per plan is a pretty significant boost. I recognize that people might react badly to the potential for negative points, but I am extremely confident that that will never actually happen. Prior evidence shows that 500 words is far more than actually necessary for a good plan.
How does this seem to all of you?
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Seems good to me. If/when we get around to timeskipping, will there be any adjustments to this for those plans?
e:
Oh! Right, I did have another possible suggestion that was entirely aside the XP system for an incentive structure:
Planning points. Basically, it'd convert at a MUCH less efficient basis than it would to XP or FP, but in exchange for making your lives easier with shorter plans, planning points would give us a token to cash in (or be cashed in if we overlook something -- no need to check with us) if we can't come up with a solution to whatever's going on, without costing us XP from doing so.
May not be something you'd wanna do, but I thought it'd be worth bringing up.
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Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
This seems pretty effective, to be honest.
I will, of course, try to get it under the 400 word count cutoff
It's not going to be real popular with players I suspect.
Anyway, it's likely that with longer timeskip will come votings that resemble more like PoC and other quests with our traditional action plans more reserved for shorter timescale.
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fictionfan
Please sir, may I have some Meows?
- Location
- Tempe, AZ
Maybe we can make some sort of computer seal to cut down on the paperwork?
Including Jiraiya/Ebisu.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Edits.
Okay so as of last update Mari is hanging out in squicksville and Jiraiya is probably comforting her after dinner.
This suggests to me that we will not be able to get the Akane convo in in a tactful manner unless we talk to only Noburi.
Mari is a definite no-go IMO. She just puked her dinner all over the everything. Lets display some tact.
Jiraiya might not want to deal with this now, he is currently taking care of Mari.
Do we want to just talk to Noburi about it then?
I think that we are okay on the Akane front for now but I'll keep
Okay so as of last update Mari is hanging out in squicksville and Jiraiya is probably comforting her after dinner.
This suggests to me that we will not be able to get the Akane convo in in a tactful manner unless we talk to only Noburi.
Mari is a definite no-go IMO. She just puked her dinner all over the everything. Lets display some tact.
Jiraiya might not want to deal with this now, he is currently taking care of Mari.
Do we want to just talk to Noburi about it then?
I think that we are okay on the Akane front for now but I'll keep
- Location
- UK
I still remember the hivemind arguing we should get extra XP for living in the wild and getting all that practical experience, so this argument brings me no mild amusement.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Well of course past-us would argue that. Past-us was living in the wild and getting all that practical experience.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I personally think that "living in the wild" and "being taught by an S-ranker and/or someone who's apparently S-rank at teaching" are both better than "taught by a normal jonin inside a village", to be honest.