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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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TaliesinSkye said:
Am I right in thinking that what we need in order to take Keiko is to somehow close range immediately to force her into a taijutsu match rather than allowing her ranged combat skills to come into play?
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Yes. But she's got higher awareness than us (and will continue to have higher awareness than us) and her ranged weapons beats our athletics.
 
Cariyaga said:
Yes. But she's got higher awareness than us (and will continue to have higher awareness than us) and her ranged weapons beats our athletics.
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Am I recalling right that at some point we made seals that were essentially single shot rocket jump boots when applied to our shoes? They might make a perfect surprise for suddenly closing distance. And if she PMYFs or substitutes to get away we can be prepared to just follow to keep right on her.
 
TaliesinSkye said:
Am I recalling right that at some point we made seals that were essentially single shot rocket jump boots when applied to our shoes? They might make a perfect surprise for suddenly closing distance. And if she PMYFs or substitutes to get away we can be prepared to just follow to keep right on her.
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Nope, we have not. If anyone made them, it'd be Kagome, and he sure wouldn't keep them a secret to the rest of the team, nor would I suggest doing so. I don't trust that the Chuunin exams won't fall prey to Akatsuki
 
Oneiros said:
I don't see your point? Even if we assume that you are correct that ninja will spot them we can still activate them to set up sheilds. Generate smoke screens. Cause explosions to target other areas
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Um. My point is that if they are sufficiently obvious that other ninja can see them, then the proctors will see them and remove them, and also supply them to Mist sealmasters to study?
 
Cariyaga said:
Um. My point is that if they are sufficiently obvious that other ninja can see them, then the proctors will see them and remove them, and also supply them to Mist sealmasters to study?
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I just fundamentally disagree with you assertion. We can come up with sufficiently clever ways to disguise them. You are already deciding a plan won't work because it has challenges
 
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I suspect that contestants trying to mess with the arena is something they'll be watching out for and not likely to be possible.
 
Oneiros said:
I just fundamentally disagree with you assertion. We can come up with sufficiently clever ways to disguise them. You are already deciding a plan won't work because it has challenges
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I am deciding that the plan you positted cannot work as you stated it. If you have other ideas for how Hazou could hide seals in the arena that do not require them to be out in the open, I am welcome to them, but I cannot decide a plan will work that isn't shared.
 
Cariyaga said:
I am deciding that the plan you positted cannot work as you stated it. If you have other ideas for how Hazou could hide seals in the arena that do not require them to be out in the open, I am welcome to them, but I cannot decide a plan will work that isn't shared.
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Instead what you do is immediately squash discussion of the idea. Instead of working with me to try to refine the idea you point out problem and demand that I personally refine them
 
Oneiros said:
Instead what you do is immediately squash discussion of the idea. Instead of working with me to try to refine the idea you point out problem and demand that I personally refine them
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Even if all he does is point out the problems in a plan and leaves any and all solution brainstorming to other people, that's still not shooting the plan down. It's a vital part of plan construction because those flaws will be there whether he mentions them or not and an unrefined plan will fall prey to them. Maybe he should think of solutions for the problems he spots without you prompting him to, but do you really think casting him as closed-minded and obstructive will make him want to help you?
 
Oneiros said:
Instead what you do is immediately squash discussion of the idea. Instead of working with me to try to refine the idea you point out problem and demand that I personally refine them
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I honestly don't understand what you're thinking here.

Like, sure, we can have ideas to help make this work: Like, say, creating a MEW maze and trapping it up, but that doesn't help in future rounds because 1: LBF requires the seals to face each other, meaning that it is impossible to set them up such that it functions without two parallel extrusions and 2: It is unreasonable to expect that the MEWs remain in place.

Other things we could do include: Creating an LBF-wand, which we already spent a week on unsuccessfully (and our research partner is unworkable right now), and burying them just below the surface where they could be snapped with a stomp. That may be workable in future rounds, but it's not going to be easy to manage as far as actually getting them to work, though we might be able to offload that onto Kagome. It would still be difficult to manage during the tournament itself, and would be very dangerous to leave lying around.

e: I just don't bring up those kinds of ideas normally because they seem pretty unworkable.
 
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Maybe what we need most isn't traps but mobility? If we can instantly close distance right off the bat and keep it closed, we win the Keiko matchup. (And probably other matchups against ranged specialists too.)

So what tricks can we use for that? We've already got substitution and PMYF, but then so does Keiko.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
Even if all he does is point out the problems in a plan and leaves any and all solution brainstorming to other people, that's still not shooting the plan down. It's a vital part of plan construction because those flaws will be there whether he mentions them or not and an unrefined plan will fall prey to them. Maybe he should think of solutions for the problems he spots without you prompting him to, but do you really think casting him as closed-minded and obstructive will make him want to help you?
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Personally, I don't think I have any obligation to think of solutions for the problems or to point out errors in the plans. I do the latter because it's easy and relatively spoon-friendly for me in a time where I'm particularly stressed out, so it's a way for me to help as I can. There's only so much effort I can expend, and planmaking is particularly effortful to me in a way that pointing out what from my perspective are glaring errors is not.
 
Cariyaga said:
Personally, I don't think I have any obligation to think of solutions for the problems or to point out errors in the plans. I do the latter because it's easy and relatively spoon-friendly for me in a time where I'm particularly stressed out, so it's a way for me to help as I can. There's only so much effort I can expend, and planmaking is particularly effortful to me in a way that pointing out what from my perspective are glaring errors is not.
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From my point of view this is what happens. I have a rough idea that if we could pre-seed the arena with seals we could activate. Instead of considering any of the benefits to it you express the problems that we would have to overcome to make it work. What I am trying to do is figure out if the idea if executed ideally would be enough to win against Kei. By skipping that step you have already shrunk the solution space to the thread at large. Now instead of thinking that remote seal activations are a possiblity the thread will ignore this idea because you pointed out things that must be considered to execute them. The way you phrased it makes the whole idea seem unworkable and thus guaranteeing it won't be considered
 
This is a quest we participate in for fun (or at least I hope we do). Nobody is obligated to do anything, except for following SV's rules. All the time we invest is freely given, and in spite of how this thread tends to function, especially when working on plans, nobody here has any claim on other people's spoons. Be they players or QMs. It's important to keep this in mind at all times, lest we drive away our most involved participants. The burnout amongst plan maintainers is very real, for example.
 
Oneiros said:
From my point of view this is what happens. I have a rough idea that if we could pre-seed the arena with seals we could activate. Instead of considering any of the benefits to it you express the problems that we would have to overcome to make it work. What I am trying to do is figure out if the idea if executed ideally would be enough to win against Kei. By skipping that step you have already shrunk the solution space to the thread at large. Now instead of thinking that remote seal activations are a possiblity the thread will ignore this idea because you pointed out things that must be considered to execute them. The way you phrased it makes the whole idea seem unworkable and thus guaranteeing it won't be considered
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I noticed that there is a common pattern within your thought process.

Whenever the thread reject your ideas, you blame it on the thread ignoring ideas or shooting down ideas, or the thread being ultraconservative or whatever.
 
Oneiros said:
From my point of view this is what happens. I have a rough idea that if we could pre-seed the arena with seals we could activate. Instead of considering any of the benefits to it you express the problems that we would have to overcome to make it work. What I am trying to do is figure out if the idea if executed ideally would be enough to win against Kei. By skipping that step you have already shrunk the solution space to the thread at large. Now instead of thinking that remote seal activations are a possiblity the thread will ignore this idea because you pointed out things that must be considered to execute them. The way you phrased it makes the whole idea seem unworkable and thus guaranteeing it won't be considered
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For the record, yes, I think that being able to hide seals well enough, and activate them at will, would be enough to beat Keiko. If we managed to research @MadScientist 's idea of Activation Relay Seals, then hid them with Goo Bombs or explosives underneath the arena using HLaM, we could definitely just activate whichever seal is beneath or behind her, either cutting off her retreat or blowing her up entirely catching her in a Goo Bomb.

I do agree with Roomba about us not being beholden to give spoons. This spoon was freely given, because I was interested.

The trouble now, is feasibility. Which is what everyone was talking about in the first place.
 
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Sentient Tree said:
For the record, yes, I think that being able to hide seals well enough, and activate them at will, would be enough to beat Keiko. If we managed to research @MadScientist 's idea of Activation Relay Seals, then hid them with Goo Bombs or explosives underneath the arena using HLaM, we could definitely just activate whichever seal is beneath or behind her, either cutting off her retreat or blowing her up entirely catching her in a Goo Bomb.

I do agree with Roomba about us not being beholden to give spoons. This spoon was freely given, because I was interested.

The trouble now, is feasibility. Which is what everyone was talking about in the first place.
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Activiation Relay Seals sound like something that takes more than a few weeks to do?
 
Oneiros said:
From my point of view this is what happens. I have a rough idea that if we could pre-seed the arena with seals we could activate. Instead of considering any of the benefits to it you express the problems that we would have to overcome to make it work. What I am trying to do is figure out if the idea if executed ideally would be enough to win against Kei. By skipping that step you have already shrunk the solution space to the thread at large. Now instead of thinking that remote seal activations are a possiblity the thread will ignore this idea because you pointed out things that must be considered to execute them. The way you phrased it makes the whole idea seem unworkable and thus guaranteeing it won't be considered
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Of course if we could set up the battlefield as we please we could beat Kei. That was never in question. We're a sealmaster.

There are two things we have to overcome to beat Kei: Her initiative, and engaging with her. If we can't beat her initiative, we don't have the chance to activate any seals. We have no initiative-buffing jutsu, and she gets to have her way with us rolling 50 (with Pantokrator's Hammer) versus 40 Athletics, plus whatever explosives she intends to use. Now, it's possible we'd still be in the fight and free of consequences after that -- average rolls would lead to her giving us 4 stress, breaking the Pangolin Training Jutsu, and leaving us free to engage afterwards -- but she's got the same athletics as we do and has Vacuum Step. She could play keep-away all day if we engaged her straightforwardly.
 
I don't understand this conversation. The question is not "how can we beat Keiko?", it's "how can we get Jiraiya elected?"

If you want to find out if we can take her in a fight, have a game during the break. Actually, do that anyway, it'll let you figure out what looks most impressive.
 
Veedrac said:
I don't understand this conversation. The question is not "how can we beat Keiko?", it's "how can we get Jiraiya elected?"

If you want to find out if we can take her in a fight, have a game during the break. Actually, do that anyway, it'll let you figure out what looks most impressive.
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Good point. So the main thing is to make sure we both look impressive and don't give Keiko any stress.
I will say that hidden seals could work for this as well, since having fireworks going off on all sides while we charge at Keiko (during the mock fight, not once we both start fighting for real) would look AMAZING. Whether it's worth whatever resources we would need in order to do that? Probably not. Unless we can get a Shadow Clone farm going quickly enough. Then maybe. Shadow clones can do sealing research, right?
 
Sentient Tree said:
Good point. So the main thing is to make sure we both look impressive and don't give Keiko any stress.
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As much as EJ keeps trying to force me to believe that the tournament is Super Important And Stuff, I still don't buy that we're required to play this straight. The break is going to take ages, I suggest keeping an open mind for now.
Shadow clones can do sealing research, right?
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@faflec, you're up.
 
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