Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I don't think they would, because they're still at a mostly 12th century tech base or so.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
I don't think they would, because they're still at a mostly 12th century tech base or so.
- Location
- Under a Rock
Sue Storm Sans Shields almost certainly has ways for fooling other senses, or dealing with mist fog, stuff on the ground. What I think she has prepared, or might have prepared:
- Ways to neutralize her own scent, with copies of her normal scent in a bottle, which she can throw.
- Ninja sandals that she can throw around.
- A jutsu that creates a cushion of air to walk on. It can't go more than an inch or two above the ground, but it makes your footsteps sound wrong, and you don't leave normal tracks.
- Lightweight dummies in storage seals, in case she gets stuck in fog.
- A jutsu that can create an indent as if someone was waterwalking, several feet away from them.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
This is of course assuming that the bloodline is JUST invisibility. It could also have some limited use intangibility as well for all we know (perhaps this is extremely chakra intensive)
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- Location
- The state of Paranoia
Unrelated, but I notice that Trapmaking skills are low tier, and I assume that they are probably low tier skills for not only most ninja, but for Team Uplift as well. Considering that most ninja have Alertness as a high tier stat, how does anyone ever fall for traps? I assume that we used our engineer pangolin's trap making skill, which might be high tier for them, but what does everyone else do when they make traps? Do sealmasters just always take trap making as a high tier skill?
You only need to fail once to hit a trap.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
1000 trap rolls, someone's going to fail once. Kagome Principle in action.
I don't think Alertness is everyone's main as far as stats go. Keiko beats out Shino and Kiba on Alertness rolls for example. This to me suggests that a decent amount of ninja aren't prioritizing it as much as other stuff. Why's that? I imagine that ambushes (doing them and getting them done to you) are relatively common in Ninja Death World. As such, your Alertness likely doesn't come in to play all the time, maybe 2/3 of the time or something like that. Seems reasonable.
Also: more esoteric traps (Implosion Seal landmines) would probably get some form of modifier to the roll.
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zap lunch
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Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
They don't seem to be counted differently in the character sheet. So there's no way to tell which part of the pool is "just for FP" or not. I'm reading this as "Its Bonus XP, for now..." or something. Unless this is an oversight.
That would take... a few weeks by my imagination. This is all stuff he has to invent from scratch. That should take a truly significant time investiture. We also would have to find a way to have him do this IC instead of us throwing information into his brain (which we cannot do). This complicates the implementation by a mile.
TBH, if we actually wanted to do all this, I'm sure the QM's would let it slide if we had a majority of people on board, but I would imagine they'd then introduce
Mathematics
Computer Science
Engineering
as skills for us to level, and then assign TN's for each of the things we would need to do.
Yes, but implicitly to do this you need to have a big pile of mathematics on hand already. I'm doubtful they have it.
In a similar timeframe in IRL earth, people had yet to think of algebraic things like "x^3" as anything more than a volume of a literal cube, calculus had yet to be invented yet, modern number theory had yet to be invented yet, and all of the above was done in a way so notationally difficult that it took years to figure out the most basic of things that we have taken for granted in the last few decades.
Back in the 1500's , rich people actually had "Court mathematicians" who dueled each other.
A real curveball of a strategy was to plop some cubic equations down for the other guy to solve.
In short, I think you are assuming too much on what the ninja can and cannot understand. To get this up and running realistically, we would have to engineer some way to have Hazou invent firsthand a pile of computer science theory, write a dozen or so treatises on it, figure out how this could physically be implemented in MfD-verse with the Aburame bugs, and sufficiently convince everyone involved that this is a good time and resource expenditure and that this somehow benefits the military society they live in in a way that gives them a leg up over their enemies.
That could take a decade or two.
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Empathy is definitely mid-tier (needed for social defence coverage), and in Hazou's case, arguably higher priority than Deceit (because of Forged in Fire).
Social works like this:
NEEDED
- Resolve (only thing that blocks Intimidation)
- Empathy (only thing that blocks Rapport)
- EITHER Deceit OR Rapport (to block Empathy)
- Presence (only blocks itself, also blocked by Resolve)
- Intimidation (doesn't block anything)
- EITHER Deceit OR Rapport (you have the other one so taking both is redundant)
- Location
- USA
Is our fighting style still linked to Deceit? Won't we need that for our bloodline powered punches @MadScientist
- Location
- US
@MadScientist
My rationale was that a pure combat type doesn't strictly have to be concerned with defending against people attempting to make a positive impression for themselves.
Point though - if three are taken then it should be empathy, resolve and one of deceit/rapport, especially given that empathy is used to learn other folks aspects.
Actually, the aspect learning thing might propel Examination up as well, at least to low-tier
My rationale was that a pure combat type doesn't strictly have to be concerned with defending against people attempting to make a positive impression for themselves.
Point though - if three are taken then it should be empathy, resolve and one of deceit/rapport, especially given that empathy is used to learn other folks aspects.
Actually, the aspect learning thing might propel Examination up as well, at least to low-tier
Well, yes and no.
To get the roki bonus our Deceit needs to be higher than the other guy's, and most people won't be Deceit specs. So yes Deceit is still important, but as far as social combat goes, our optimised priority accounting for Foged in Fire goes "Empathy, Deceit, Resolve", not "Deceit, Resolve, Empathy" which is the order they're currently in.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Incidentally...
@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail
I notice in the character spreadsheets that the Word Count bonus XP is being kept track of as if it is literal bonus XP. Is this a mistake? Or is this just what we're doing for the short term with that until something else can be figured out with that?
I believe you said at an earlier point that this would end up working like earning "Fractional fate points" at the usual conversation rate of XP to FP. Has that been axed?
@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail
I notice in the character spreadsheets that the Word Count bonus XP is being kept track of as if it is literal bonus XP. Is this a mistake? Or is this just what we're doing for the short term with that until something else can be figured out with that?
I believe you said at an earlier point that this would end up working like earning "Fractional fate points" at the usual conversation rate of XP to FP. Has that been axed?
zap lunch
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Stealth occupies a funny place where how good it is is completely dependent on the meta - when opponents are likely to actually have solid Alertness, it becomes thoroughly ineffective, but against people who haven't pumped it up it allows brutal takedowns. So, basically it's great for smashing low-to-mid-tier opponents fairly safely, but against any of our real threats it's borderline useless (unless we specialized in it near-exclusively, which then would leave us a one-trick pony vulnerable to anyone who happens to beat our roll).
Craft-traps/cracking probably doesn't even need to be low-tier for generic combat-spec types, though it's vaguely nice to have someone with them on your team (and maybe it's you). Thing is, non-seal-based-traps have pretty consistently been shown as useful to deal with civilians or some chakra beasts, but otherwise only slowing down or maybe sounding the alarm against ninja opponents. Beyond that, similar to Stealth, against opponents with high Alertness having a few points here or there just won't be relevant, and any of the high-tier enemies we're actually worried about will have a lot of it.
Survival seems like the kind of thing that everyone should learn enough to pass the basic checks for "not dying in the woods", and then never put another point into.
I feel that you're underestimating how much of a challenge this is, and overestimating how useful it will be - and, even more so, how useful it can be perceived as being in-setting. Your earlier answer to "what good are computers" was a good OOC summary of what we know computers are good for that people IC might want, but it's a massive jump to presume anybody in-world could figure any of it out from first principles.
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Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
If needs be we can prompt Hazou work enough number theory insights to get him to RSA and El-Gamal easily. The minimum core of maths needed is actually pretty small.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I mean, depending on how this is meant :Well, when you put it that way...
1) Fermat was around in the 17th century and I'm explicitly assuming we aren't that advanced.
2) Here is a fantastic example of the type of thing I'm talking about. This is a really easy question to pose if:
a) You have access to a modern 8th grade algebra background
b) Possess a good system of notation
However, it took hundreds of years of dozens if not hundreds of well trained people trying (and failing) to prove this statement before any traction was gained. Just imagine Hazou trying to invent Turing Machines or Peano Arithmetic without us just copy pasting wikipedia snippets into the plan.
I agree that some of these things can certainly exist in setting (Nara, Mori). I disagree that they exist in a readily accessable medium. Doing this sort of thing would be extremely cumbersome and time consuming if we had access to stuff with modern day notational standards and educational intent (books explicitly meant to be introductory), let alone if we had stuff from the 1940-1950s, let alone if we only had references that read off like a 15th century ponce-y-pants describing something simple like the quadratic formula in as many pages as your average shakespeare play.
I would expect it to be not too dissimilar to the following old limerick:
PonceyPants Math Limerick said:
Regardless, thats pretty much all I have to say on the topic I suppose.
- Location
- Under a Rock
Your analysis is good, but stealth is useful in other situations.
- In direct confrontation, beating you opponent's awareness essentially means that you get to pick which stat gets used to fight, or if to have a fight at all. So it great against minmaxed opponents who are better than you. Provided they didn't realize alertness was the god stat.
- It is critical to have in situations taking place over larger areas over longer periods of time. If you wanted to infiltrate a secure location, now that your disguise kit is gone. Yes, given that your stealth beat their god stat, you probably could have taken them anyway. But if they died, then the enemy knows you were there.
I mean. That first point is exactly what I mean by "dependent on the meta," in that it's all about the metagame perspective of recognizing Alertness as the god stat and reacting accordingly.
(not that I actually quite agree that it's the god stat, but it is absolutely very good)
And yeah, for more indirect confrontations and the like Stealth is great, but we were discussing a hypothetical direct combat specialist; not a scout, assassin, or saboteur. Once you're operating outside of "my job is to kill ninja in combat," Stealth is rather helpful.
E: And, of course, a good chuunin or jounin likely won't be too overspecialized and should have competent Stealth. It should be low-tier, my point was more about how interesting it is that it's brutally awesome unless your opponent is savvy enough to keep Alertness really high, at which point it's mostly useless - and the really savvy opponents are the ones we have to worry about the most, so they're the builds to beat.
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- Location
- US
@Erolki
I'd probably qualify high Stealth as inherent to an infiltrator-build.
I'd added Stealth in the set of low skills for a combat-spec, mostly as I saw it marginally more useful than the other unnamed skills... but at low levels only really good for messing with adorable Genin and avoiding non-ninja staff on missions.
You need 10 skills allocated, at minimum, to get 2 skills at 80 (in the old system), and 19 to get 3.
In the new system (provided changes that make it actually result in columns) 9 skills for 1, 18 for 2, etc.
So you end up needing lots of skills, and non-chakra based utility seems pretty attractive on first blush.
With a ninja with Stealth X tries to sneak past a ninja with Alertness at the same value, the stealth ninja should usually have the advantage. This is because:
1. The stealth ninja, as the aggressor, will have had the opportunity to set up aspects to boost his roll.
2. Just in general, there are more aspects in the environment that will boost stealth than will make your opponents see/hear better. Distractions are easy to come by.
1. The stealth ninja, as the aggressor, will have had the opportunity to set up aspects to boost his roll.
2. Just in general, there are more aspects in the environment that will boost stealth than will make your opponents see/hear better. Distractions are easy to come by.
- Location
- Potato land
We did not make a mistake there. The winning plan explicitly pointed out that we were going to break opsec on EM, and I, as the plan author, openly considered the possibility that Akane could break up with Hazou over this. It was very much a calculated risk. One among many in a very risky plan, in fact.
I don't necessarily disagree about the divergence between our perspective and Hazou's causing various strange artifacts as he carries out our plans, but I'm not sure what can be done about that, aside from perhaps trying to guide his character development in a direction that makes sense for our goals. Then again, I suspect that would result in him becoming a cold-hearted sociopath, which isn't exactly what I'd like to read about.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I believe they are not referring to "Using EM" but "Blurting out the specifics in front of Super Team Leaf."
That was a typo.
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- Location
- Potato land
Using it the way we did basically revealed it was Akane's technique because of the logistics involved in getting STL into the safe zone. At the very least, I was aware this was going to happen. It didn't help that Hazou dispelled any uncertainty STL members might have felt about it (and outright informed the slower ones), but the cat was basically out of the bag regardless.
Again, though, I'm not entirely sure how much of this Hazou, the character, actually understood when pitching this plan to Noburi and Keiko.