Don't worry so much. "Deadly combat" in MfD is a term of art referring to competitive hopscotch.

Yeah, you have to be careful about avoiding the booby-traps. The gennin version of the game starts at taking your leg off.
S-Rank competitive hopscotch has been banned by combined decree of the Kages.

EDIT: Has there ever been discussion of creating live storage mines?
That is, weaponize the fact that trying to put a living thing in a storage seal results in a dead thing.
 
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It'll be pretty funny if all the precautions scare everyone off and they don't attack.

By the way, what was the rationale for trading party trick seals to other teams again? It's been so long that I completely forget. I know it was started before the retconned "the seals are dangerously unstable" discovery, so the players must have had something else in mind.
 
It'll be pretty funny if all the precautions scare everyone off and they don't attack.

By the way, what was the rationale for trading party trick seals to other teams again? It's been so long that I completely forget. I know it was started before the retconned "the seals are dangerously unstable" discovery, so the players must have had something else in mind.
Something about international cooperation and breaking the cycle of hatred?

Edit: This is the reasoning on the plan:
A few reasons. To list a few:
  1. It puts us in a position of authority over other genin, aside from just "we beat you up" (though we'll do that too if necessary)
  2. It spreads out the Party Trick seals over multiple groups so that Mist has a harder time arguing against their validity
  3. It gets us a bunch of spent seal casings to hide party trick seals in, making it harder to spot them (and more likely for them to count)
  4. It allows us more opportunities to make friends and influence people
  5. It establishes us as clever support ninja who can be traded with
  6. It makes us valuable to other ninja in a way that may lead to them defending us, making it less likely for an anti-Leaf alliance to form
  7. It masks our combat ability (nobody expects the clever support ninja to be able to kick as much ass as we can - at least, not until the tournament when they are sorely disappointed)
Essentially, this is an exchange in which other teams get:
  • One point
And we get:
  • Better chances of party trick exploit working (via spreading them out among different nations and via collecting proctor seal casings)
  • An excuse for Leaf ninja to collaborate (letting us keep our position as defacto head Leaf genin)
  • Better chances of all Leaf ninja making it to the finals (since we give them seals for helping us, and an opportunity to store things they acquire somewhere safe (Pangolin realm))
  • An easy opportunity to have information exchanges (via diplomacy and storage seal trading while visiting ninja are waiting for us to finish their work)
  • Intel on the competition by seeing who comes to us, what sorts of wounds they show, any opsec breaches they commit in our presence etc.
  • Establishment of ourselves as people who think outside the box and turn competitive situations to new paradigms where everyone benefits
I'm pretty sure the incentives line up for everyone in the stack of "people who are in the chunnin exams." Since you'll be writing the chapter, and this is likely to come up, would you like me to more explicitly talk about this, or link to this post inside the action plan?

Edit: so to look at this from the perspective of various players in the exams:

when trading defunct seals for functioning counterfeits:

Hazou and his immediate team gain:
  • Lower likelihood of having fortress attacked (since other genin are unlikely to bite the hand that feeds them)
  • Additional information on enemy teams (since we will see high numbers of enemies in groups)
  • Establishing themselves as paradigm shifters
  • Ability to hide much of our combat abilities by avoiding combat for now
  • Additional likelihood of counterfeit plan working, since more people would be in on it
  • Time to diplomance away for information via selling seals
  • Potential for making ourselves an information trader (depending on how many groups pass through us)
Non-Leaf nin who take the trade gain:
  • A point for this event where they had none before (due to defunct seals)
  • The opportunity to trade information for seals, or potentially information for information
And other Leaf-nin gain things from helping us do this because it grants them:
  • Access to some of the stupid numbers of seals Hazou will be making, thus significantly higher scores for this event, potentially without even needing to do anything (unless someone wants to attack the doom fortress made by the sealmaster)
  • Ability to hide many of their combat abilities if they desire
  • Free information on enemy teams (since they'll be coming to the fortress)
  • Potential for additional information on the exam itself (since there'll be a fair amount of information around)
  • Clean, dry, relatively safe, non-chakra beast infested places to stay
  • Clear direction with reasonable assurance of victory where they may not have had it before
 
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Huh, that's some interesting reasoning. I think ultimately, though, you have to look at it from the perspective of other teams. This is a game where most of the genin has to lose. It's not possible to set up an 'everybody wins' situation, so if there is a large group of ninja (the Leaf nin) doing well then you have to either try and take them down or try for whatever limited amount of room might be left in the pass group... and note, no one ever said how many genin will pass.

It makes us valuable to other ninja in a way that may lead to them defending us, making it less likely for an anti-Leaf alliance to form

They want to win, so if the Leaf nin are cranking out a massive supply of point-scoring seals, it's obvious that we'll win unless they attack us and steal the supply. (They don't know it's being stashed in the Summon realm, after all.)

It masks our combat ability (nobody expects the clever support ninja to be able to kick as much ass as we can - at least, not until the tournament when they are sorely disappointed)

Particularly if combat ability is masked... why wouldn't they give it a try?

(unless someone wants to attack the doom fortress made by the sealmaster)

Because evidently, defensive emplacements just aren't much respected in-universe.

Now whatever, what's done is done and we're committed to building a fortress and trading, but I can totally see the logic for why a bunch of the other competitors would decide to band together in response and take out the fortress and divide up the spoils.
 
It'll be pretty funny if all the precautions scare everyone off and they don't attack.

By the way, what was the rationale for trading party trick seals to other teams again? It's been so long that I completely forget. I know it was started before the retconned "the seals are dangerously unstable" discovery, so the players must have had something else in mind.

You know, I joke about being promised deadly combat, but I would prefer that we did get attacked. If I'm right, it's going to happen sooner rather than later, and this is about as prepared as we're going to get.

The trading thing was just because it seemed like a funny idea, and if nothing else, this thread's participants really enjoy messing with things and pushing boundaries of rules.

I think we can generally handwave a pass at "without tipping anyone off". It was the middle of the night, the Uchiha had deliberately isolated themselves, and ninja combat happens really quickly. It's possible the whole thing was over in half an hour.

The question is, how many ninjas are in "a whole clan"? What kind of numbers are we really talking about here? A dozen? Twenty? Thirty? Fifty? More? Let's say we're concerning ourselves with chuunin and better.

I'd expect 50 active ninja, with around half at Chuunin and above rank, at a conservative estimate. Clans should have higher ranked ninja on average, just because of the support network they provide, physical bloodlines aside.

And I really don't want to handwave this away. I don't know about anyone else, but for me, the draw of a "rational" setting, is that it's possible to actually reason and draw conclusions from given facts, rather than having something be true because the plot demanded it. So, while I can accept that the massacre is *possible* in principle, there's just no way Konoha wasn't involved. Sure, it was the middle of the night, in an isolated section of the village, but it's still a ninja village - you'll have ninja, including high ranked ones, awake and doing stuff, you have patrols, you very likely have someone specifically watching the Uchiha compound for signs of trouble. And all it takes is a single scream or a Katon jutsu going off to expose the whole operation.

One option I'm willing to entertain is that most of the Uchiha simply let themselves be executed, for whatever reason, and the massacre is just a coverup. This is, to an extent, true in canon as well - Itachi and Sasuke's parents just surrender and let themselves die instead of fighting their son.
 
I'd expect 50 active ninja, with around half at Chuunin and above rank, at a conservative estimate. Clans should have higher ranked ninja on average, just because of the support network they provide, physical bloodlines aside.

Sure, that sounds right.

And I really don't want to handwave this away. I don't know about anyone else, but for me, the draw of a "rational" setting, is that it's possible to actually reason and draw conclusions from given facts, rather than having something be true because the plot demanded it.

Not for me; rational settings don't appeal to me because I don't value subjecting fiction to that level of scrutiny. (Looks at thread title.) Yes, I know, but the quest has enough appealing elements to make up for the (to-me) deficiency of being a rational setting.

That said....

So, while I can accept that the massacre is *possible* in principle, there's just no way Konoha wasn't involved. Sure, it was the middle of the night, in an isolated section of the village, but it's still a ninja village - you'll have ninja, including high ranked ones, awake and doing stuff, you have patrols, you very likely have someone specifically watching the Uchiha compound for signs of trouble. And all it takes is a single scream or a Katon jutsu going off to expose the whole operation.

Eh... I think you're confusing "low odds" with "no odds". Yes, it would be difficult for the reasons you list, but difficult is not impossible. It's fine if the operation is exposed; it's just a question of if the village sends anyone in before it's too late.

I mean, simulate in your head if there were "something happening" in the Hyuuga compound. Some yelling, a noise, a combat jutus goes off. Does a full response squad bust in there right away? Really? Because you know, jumping into the middle of what might be an internal clan coup or something of that nature. I think they'd pause, knock at the door, dither around a little...

And now recall that the Uchiha were the military police, the people who are supposed to response to disturbances inside the village. So if there's "something going on", then it's Uchiha patrols who would come back to see what's up... exactly the people Itachi and any of his mysterious backers might need to kill anyway. How long do you wait for them to report back before you send more people in? Who are "you" in this case, anyway... did we wake up the Hokage yet? And every minute that ticks by, Itachi is closer to being done.

I'm not saying the Konoha government wasn't involved, but I am saying I can see a path to how it could have gone off without them. Some things would have to go right, but not an unbelievable number of things. Crazier stuff can and has happened.
 
Eh... I think you're confusing "low odds" with "no odds". Yes, it would be difficult for the reasons you list, but difficult is not impossible. It's fine if the operation is exposed; it's just a question of if the village sends anyone in before it's too late.

I mean, simulate in your head if there were "something happening" in the Hyuuga compound. Some yelling, a noise, a combat jutus goes off. Does a full response squad bust in there right away? Really? Because you know, jumping into the middle of what might be an internal clan coup or something of that nature. I think they'd pause, knock at the door, dither around a little...

And now recall that the Uchiha were the military police, the people who are supposed to response to disturbances inside the village. So if there's "something going on", then it's Uchiha patrols who would come back to see what's up... exactly the people Itachi and any of his mysterious backers might need to kill anyway. How long do you wait for them to report back before you send more people in? Who are "you" in this case, anyway... did we wake up the Hokage yet? And every minute that ticks by, Itachi is closer to being done.

I'm not saying the Konoha government wasn't involved, but I am saying I can see a path to how it could have gone off without them. Some things would have to go right, but not an unbelievable number of things. Crazier stuff can and has happened.
I mean, yes, it's true that it's not "no odds", but... Itachi's clearly not an idiot. I strongly suspect he would not take "low odds" unless there were some outside force acting on him.
 
I mean, yes, it's true that it's not "no odds", but... Itachi's clearly not an idiot.

Itachi is clearly a deadly ninja, which I suspect has seen him through a great deal of personal idiocy.

I strongly suspect he would not take "low odds" unless there were some outside force acting on him.

It's hard to know what Itachi might be like in the MfD, but I wonder if he wasn't shocked by his own success. Like he did his best because that's what he always does, but in the back of his head he never really thought he'd succeed.
 
Itachi is clearly a deadly ninja, which I suspect has seen him through a great deal of personal idiocy.



It's hard to know what Itachi might be like in the MfD, but I wonder if he wasn't shocked by his own success. Like he did his best because that's what he always does, but in the back of his head he never really thought he'd succeed.
It's true, being a deadly ninja can see you through a great variety of idiocies. Just look at Hazou! :p
 
Not for me; rational settings don't appeal to me because I don't value subjecting fiction to that level of scrutiny. (Looks at thread title.) Yes, I know, but the quest has enough appealing elements to make up for the (to-me) deficiency of being a rational setting.

That said....

I mean, I don't really have a preference towards "rational" settings or stories; I do find a lot of them unusual in an enjoyable way, but not for the kind of almost ideological reasons some people in this thread or over at r/rational seem to have. Unlike eaglejarl, I've read the entirety of Naruto, enjoyed myself, and my major criticisms of the work have little to do with the worldbuilding per se.

That said, if MfD is supposed to be "rational", then I say we should make the best of it. If the QMs are trying really hard to have things make sense behind the scenes, then I'm going to trust them and proceed as if things, in fact, do make sense. It's more fun this way as well, at least for me.

Eh... I think you're confusing "low odds" with "no odds". Yes, it would be difficult for the reasons you list, but difficult is not impossible. It's fine if the operation is exposed; it's just a question of if the village sends anyone in before it's too late.

I mean, simulate in your head if there were "something happening" in the Hyuuga compound. Some yelling, a noise, a combat jutus goes off. Does a full response squad bust in there right away? Really? Because you know, jumping into the middle of what might be an internal clan coup or something of that nature. I think they'd pause, knock at the door, dither around a little...

And now recall that the Uchiha were the military police, the people who are supposed to response to disturbances inside the village. So if there's "something going on", then it's Uchiha patrols who would come back to see what's up... exactly the people Itachi and any of his mysterious backers might need to kill anyway. How long do you wait for them to report back before you send more people in? Who are "you" in this case, anyway... did we wake up the Hokage yet? And every minute that ticks by, Itachi is closer to being done.

I'm not saying the Konoha government wasn't involved, but I am saying I can see a path to how it could have gone off without them. Some things would have to go right, but not an unbelievable number of things. Crazier stuff can and has happened.

Fair enough. The way I was looking at it, was that someone smart and resourceful planned the massacre, and then it was carried out according to said plan. In that case, "low odds" would disqualify this explanation. That's an example of an error in reasoning whose name escapes me at the moment - assuming that what happened was what the culprit intended to happen.

It's possible that the intent was completely different, that what actually happened was completely different, and the "Uchiha massacre" is a coverup, because the truth is somehow much worse and more damaging. Or that, as you say, Itachi expected to fail and succeeded in spite of himself. I can kind of imagine a scenario similar to canon, where Konoha lets Itachi go ahead with the massacre, expecting him to fail, but weaken the clan enough that it has to let go of its greater ambitions. Then he succeeds unexpectedly, to the detriment of literally everyone. Would be suitably ironic.

I mean, yes, it's true that it's not "no odds", but... Itachi's clearly not an idiot. I strongly suspect he would not take "low odds" unless there were some outside force acting on him.

*If* this result (the massacre) is in fact what anyone involved intended.
 
So it's almost guaranteed unless Itachi killed his clan while high out of his fucking mind?

Strictly speaking, what we *know* is that a lot of Uchiha died, Itachi is a missing-nin and Konoha claim he murdered all of them. There's a large spectrum of possibilities there if you permit the "low odds" ones.

Once we get back to Konoha, we should try to delicately (as in, not Hazou doing it) sound out what the ninja rumour mill has to say about Itachi and the massacre. Should be fun.
 
Can things be unstored from a seal by anyone? If so, do we know of a storage seal version that is locked to (e.g. the chakra signature of) the person who stored things in it?
 
For all we know, he's Konoha's spy in Akatsuki and the whole massacre was arranged to make his defection believable. I don't buy it, but it's technically possible.

The fact that Jiraiya hasn't been passed a message on where they're keeping Naruto really argues against that.

Once we get back to Konoha, we should try to delicately (as in, not Hazou doing it) sound out what the ninja rumour mill has to say about Itachi and the massacre. Should be fun.

Technically no need to wait. There are several Leaf genin right here who could certainly give us the "rumour mill" version of events. Sakura might even know more than that; Sasuke was her teammate.

In fact, Hazou could even open the discussion with, "Come on, could one guy really kill a whole ninja clan with super eye powers and then get away? How would that even work?" Find out what the in-universe rumour mill explanation is.
 
The fact that Jiraiya hasn't been passed a message on where they're keeping Naruto really argues against that.



Technically no need to wait. There are several Leaf genin right here who could certainly give us the "rumour mill" version of events. Sakura might even know more than that; Sasuke was her teammate.

In fact, Hazou could even open the discussion with, "Come on, could one guy really kill a whole ninja clan with super eye powers and then get away? How would that even work?" Find out what the in-universe rumour mill explanation is.
I just know that if we put that in a plan it would come out terribly because that's exactly the kind of question that would invoke Hazou's Trouble :p
 
Exactly. Even Kishimoto noticed just how nonsensical the idea was, and had to involve one of the most bullshit powers in the setting (Kamui) and a ridiculous conspiracy, just to explain it.

In a more rational setting, it's not so much the feat of killing all the clan ninja that is crazy, but the ability to keep it secret from the rest of the village, and to control information about it afterwards. We've spent a long time thinking about extracting a single Jounin from Mist, one who we expected to go along with it, and how difficult that was going to be, even for someone with Jiraiya's knowhow and resources. And here, some party manages to wipe out a whole clan of combat specialist ninja with a bullshit bloodline, in a single night, without tipping anyone off in a village full of overpowered sensors.

Like, I have trouble figuring out how someone would even do this in theory. Would have to be some kind of lateral solution like poisoning the water supply, as posited by faflec.

EDIT: Or maybe Kagome is right and it was the Sage who arranged it, somehow.

It's also a key point that the whole clan was wiped out. One possibility is that no Uchiha were serving shifts in the ABNU, being on far-away missions, patrolling the city, guarding Hokage or whatever else they might have been doing. Another is that a bunch of other, practically simultaneous missions were done to clean up every Uchiha not present in the compound, which puts additional strain on the "no Konoha conspiracy" theory. For example, access to the kind of information you'd need to find every Uchiha is probably hard to obtain, especially without tipping anyone off that you are trying to obtain it.

Poisoning the water-supply seems suspect to me too. It seems likely that a ninja clan would have some kind of protection against that, such as checking food and water for poisons regularily. In fact, you'd think that they would have decently hard to bypass protections against most ways to kill everyone in the clan, which means that any solution would have to be some kind of out-of-context problem for them, like a new unknown mass-murdering jutsu or a seal.

Strictly speaking, what we *know* is that a lot of Uchiha died, Itachi is a missing-nin and Konoha claim he murdered all of them. There's a large spectrum of possibilities there if you permit the "low odds" ones.

Once we get back to Konoha, we should try to delicately (as in, not Hazou doing it) sound out what the ninja rumour mill has to say about Itachi and the massacre. Should be fun.

Strictly speaking, what we *know* is that we haven't seen any Uchiha, Uchiha family house is for sale (IIRC) and Leaf is officially claiming that they were slaughtered by a single dude. Not like we've seen any bodies.

You'd think Itachi would have at least tried to have a crow sent out to warn Jiraiya about the whole "yo we stealin your godson" thing.

Could be he didn't have an opportunity. Could be he did and Jiraya didn't tell us-not like we are any good at keeping secrets. Could be Itachi is being paranoid (i.e. justifiably careful) about passing messages to Leaf and is waiting for an opportunity where passing such a message would be key and worth the risk, e.g. when Akatsuki start their ritual and would be unable to move Naruto for a while (whereas now they can just throw him on a birdie and fly away at the first hint that Leaf knows where they are, meaning passing a message along would achieve nothing and would expose Itachi).
 
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