I love how you write Tsunade.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
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- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
- Location
- US
Re: Ninjutsu XP cost discussion
You could have a scaling XP cost for every technique known, and better techniques could be gated behind appropriate skill level costs (per element, manipulation, discipline, etc)
- say 10*N XP for a new technique, where N is the number of techniques you'll have at the end of learning techniques. Should be able to (choose to) forget unused techniques as well.
You can only remember so many techniques, and you get better at remembering the more experience you have.
You can only learn a technique when you are proficient in the element to an appropriate degree, with enough patience/discipline and chakra control.
You could have a scaling XP cost for every technique known, and better techniques could be gated behind appropriate skill level costs (per element, manipulation, discipline, etc)
- say 10*N XP for a new technique, where N is the number of techniques you'll have at the end of learning techniques. Should be able to (choose to) forget unused techniques as well.
You can only remember so many techniques, and you get better at remembering the more experience you have.
You can only learn a technique when you are proficient in the element to an appropriate degree, with enough patience/discipline and chakra control.
The problem there is that redundant jutsu are actually worse, on average - your second "ranged attack jutsu that inflicts damage" is much less of a game-changer than your first, and the third or fourth will only matter in niche situations where their different side effects or elemental advantages come up. Despite this, if we look at ninjutsu specialists in canon, and to a lesser (but still present) degree in MfD, they have that sort of "redundant" array of attack jutsu. Defensive and utility jutsu tend to be less redundant, but I think a lot of that is just the fact that most jutsu are offensive in nature - ninja create more weapons than they do armour or tools.
And forgetting techniques may work for Vancian magic, but is really inappropriate to the Naruto setting, whether canon or MfD.
MARI: Welp. Two down...
OROCHIMARU: (beat) Will you please stop looking at me like that? It's creepy.
- Location
- US
Forgetting techniques should really only be an issue when we have no need to retain the technique, I.e. When we stop using it. In my opinion, it is perfectly valid that someone who does not actively try to retain a technique will forget it to a level where it is no longer operationally viable (presuming the chakra manipulation and hand seal sequence is modestly complex)
To be clear, I'm suggesting actual forgetting, where we would need to retrain the requisite time period to regain the forgotten technique, should we regret forgetting it. In Vancian mechanics, my understanding is you swap out spells to suit a need.
As to redundant techniques... yes. Having an array of similar techniques should be moderately more difficult, even if they are in the same element. The argument that they are not game changing is (at least to me) irrelevant.
10N for each new technique results in 5N(N+1) XP for N techniques (yay sequences). If you think it should be easier, a smaller cost could be appropriate. Otherwise, a hard cap on number of techniques, only breakable by aspects could be appropriate.
A ninja decides which techniques are vital to survival then learns and practices those techniques. With more experience, ninjas have a slightly easier time retaining their favorite techniques (more experience can get more techniques)
We both advocate an initial time cost to learn.
To me, the XP cost is indicative of the time spent during regular training practicing the hand signs, remembering the chakra manipulation patterns, and sometimes practicing the technique. This is in lieu of physical conditioning, speech practicing, strategic gaming, etc (the practice activities that I consider as off-screen maintenance, more or less subdivided by degrees according to skill allocation)
Forgetting a technique means you spend time on another technique (learn a different technique at that cost) or more time doing other kinds of practice
The problem is, again, that you're advocating a system that doesn't match the world - one where ninja only know a few techniques, maybe a half-dozen if they're really specialized; that setup might be appropriate for low-to-mid ranked ninja, sure, but not the mid-to-high ranks. Hazou alone already knows half a dozen ninjutsu, and he's a taijutsu primary! One with some unusual advantages, yes, but a ninjutsu specialist could easily have even more. If we want the world to remain consistent, we need to build a system that allows for, or even outright incentivizes, people learning lots of jutsu when they get the chance. Something that costs more and more xp for filling out your elements just doesn't fit.
I'm all for small tweaks to things here and there, but the gap between "skilled ninja learn as many techniques as they can get their hands on" and "skilled ninja know a few techniques, everyone else has maybe one or two" is enormous, and I don't think it makes the setting more interesting or mechanically viable. Heck, "people have fewer superpowers" strikes me as an easy way to make the setting less interesting.
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think it's safe to say we won't let you forget techniques. Being as techniques need to be used instantly, accurately and without hesitation in order to avoid horrible death, a ninja will obviously train them until they're burned into muscle memory. Muscle memory isn't perfect, but it also doesn't go away. I haven't practised martial arts for over a decade, and I can still perform every move (to the limits of my body's fitness) and, given half an hour with the handbook, I'm pretty sure I could perform any of the forms I know as well, which usually involve dozens of moves. To the majority of ninja, a decade is literally a lifetime.
Raxner
The most dangerous man in an empty room
- Location
- Israel
It seems to me like if ninja do train techniques to that extent (and it makes sense that they should), then there should be a high cost to learning and training any given technique, to represent hundreds of hours of practice and drill.
- Location
- US
@Velorien
This goes to my assumption that chakra manipulation and hand seals are at least moderately complex, and the outcomes somewhat more serious than practicing martial arts.
I've had the impression that messing up a technique causes potentially serious harm (using rules for Technique Hacking).
The obvious straw man is the individual who learns 100s of techniques, and never uses or practices the first one he learned for years. If, in the world you are simulating, this person can be expected to reasonably use that first technique, at a moment's notice, then sure. That's your prerogative, and one rando on the internet won't change that.
Muscle memory is great, and is a non-issue for Hazo, but it only gets you so far. You might be off a degree or two in your stance, and that won't actually kill you so that's fine. Ninja have to have perfect stances, and also mold their chakra output in the precise way, so their technique doesn't backfire/fizzle out.
In my view of the ninja world, they maintain their supreme confidence in their abilities through practice, either by training or through consistent use in battle.
@Erolki
Conversely, we don't see anybody with 100s of techniques (Hiruzen and Kakashi are claimed to have the largest arrays, but we don't ever see them do their full arsenal (I don't know, maybe 50-100, maybe less?))
Maybe 5N(N+1) is too high, but 0 seems too low.
Say N(N+1)/2, which gives you 30 techniques for ~500 XP, but would take ~5000 XP for 100 techniques.
Does that seem more reasonable?
This goes to my assumption that chakra manipulation and hand seals are at least moderately complex, and the outcomes somewhat more serious than practicing martial arts.
I've had the impression that messing up a technique causes potentially serious harm (using rules for Technique Hacking).
The obvious straw man is the individual who learns 100s of techniques, and never uses or practices the first one he learned for years. If, in the world you are simulating, this person can be expected to reasonably use that first technique, at a moment's notice, then sure. That's your prerogative, and one rando on the internet won't change that.
Muscle memory is great, and is a non-issue for Hazo, but it only gets you so far. You might be off a degree or two in your stance, and that won't actually kill you so that's fine. Ninja have to have perfect stances, and also mold their chakra output in the precise way, so their technique doesn't backfire/fizzle out.
In my view of the ninja world, they maintain their supreme confidence in their abilities through practice, either by training or through consistent use in battle.
@Erolki
Conversely, we don't see anybody with 100s of techniques (Hiruzen and Kakashi are claimed to have the largest arrays, but we don't ever see them do their full arsenal (I don't know, maybe 50-100, maybe less?))
Maybe 5N(N+1) is too high, but 0 seems too low.
Say N(N+1)/2, which gives you 30 techniques for ~500 XP, but would take ~5000 XP for 100 techniques.
Does that seem more reasonable?
Tua
鸡肉面条汤
- Location
- شوربة الدجاج المعكرونة
I have no idea what Int Neg stands for, but from my copious amounts of experience on the internet BL stands for Boy's Love. Which explains a lot about why Kabuto is so interested in blood line limits and Hazo's specifically. He probably wants to reproduce the latter in pill form to compete with Tsunade's viagra pills.
Welp, looks like we were wrong about Kabuto. It's not Orochimaru he works for but Tsunade, who is much more subtle about her plans to betray Konoha. We should probably let someone know ASAP.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
[X] What would have happened if the YOUTHSUIT chapter stayed canon
[X] Hazou becomes aware of and speaks with the hivemind
[X] Chosen for the Grave part 3
[X] Hazou becomes aware of and speaks with the hivemind
[X] Chosen for the Grave part 3
- Location
- Yes.
[x] Team Sannin getting drunk
[x] Jiraiya laughs
[x] Jiraiya laughs
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Pretty sure that in this context BL means "bloodline". None of us are willing to write pedophilia.
- Location
- North Wales
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
[x] Pandā confidently 'explains' the events in the Human Path to his friends
[x] Minami Nikkō's name is added to the Memorial Stone.
[x] Minami Nikkō's name is added to the Memorial Stone.
- Location
- London
- Pronouns
- He/Him/They/Them
From the relevant wikipedia page: "Although the yaoi genre is also called Boys' Love(commonly abbreviated as BL), the characters may be of any age above puberty, including adults." (Emphasis mine.) It's totally possible to write adult homoerotic fiction under the genre named BL. Probably not in keeping with the tone of this story as its been written so far, but possible.
Also from wikipedia, and otherwise apropos of nothing, today I came across the "Kagome lattice", which should definitely be used in describing a seal matrix some time.
Winged_One
Head Engineer of ATHENA
- Location
- Low Earth Orbit
[X] Hazou becomes aware of and speaks with the hivemind
- Location
- Yes.
[x] Pandā confidently 'explains' the events in the Human Path to his friends
[x] Minami Nikkō's name is added to the Memorial Stone.
[x] Minami Nikkō's name is added to the Memorial Stone.
Jello_Raptor
(Confirmed Jelly)
- Location
- Left of Center
[x] Pandā confidently 'explains' the events in the Human Path to his friends
[x] Pandā confidently 'explains' the events in the Human Path to his friends
So, putting this list forward to people to have opinions about - this is building from the list earlier, with a few pieces stolen from here and there:
Physical Skills:
Athletics (movement, dodging)
Physique (resilience, strength)
Taijutsu (unarmed combat)
Melee (armed combat)
Ranged (ranged combat)
Stealth (sneaking, hiding)
Mental Skills:
Alertness (perception, initiative)
Crafts (building or dismantling objects, traps, and/or structures)
Will (mental and social resilience, general Determinator status)
Medicine (treatment, diagnosis)
Social Skills:
Deceive (trick or confuse people)
Provoke (influence people aggressively; Mari or Keiko negotiation)
Rapport (influence people in a friendly way; Noburi or Akane negotiation)
Empathy (read people)
Common Ninja Powers:
Chakra (general capacity, neutral ninjutsu)
Earth Ninjutsu (what it says)
Water Ninjutsu (what it says)
Fire Ninjutsu (what it says)
Wind Ninjutsu (what it says)
Lightning Ninjutsu (what it says)
Genjutsu (what it says)
Esoteric Ninja Skills (generally learned at high XP cost):
Sealing (writing, researching, and crafting seals)
Summoning (power and possibly efficiency of summons)
Technique Hacking (tweak existing jutsu, create new jutsu)
I'm not sure if there should be some kind of Academic/Education/Knowledge type skill - the problem mostly boils down to, "what challenges would a character roll this skill to overcome", and those are almost all either awkwardly wide-scale (analyzing city or nation-wide patterns) or likely to fit into another skill entirely (such as Crafts, or one of the social skills). Survival's another one - tracking can go into Alertness, camouflage into Stealth, and these characters have never had mechanical problems getting food without Chakra Beast involvement (which goes to the combat engine). There's nothing left that actually justifies it to stand alone mechanically.
Physical Skills:
Athletics (movement, dodging)
Physique (resilience, strength)
Taijutsu (unarmed combat)
Melee (armed combat)
Ranged (ranged combat)
Stealth (sneaking, hiding)
Mental Skills:
Alertness (perception, initiative)
Crafts (building or dismantling objects, traps, and/or structures)
Will (mental and social resilience, general Determinator status)
Medicine (treatment, diagnosis)
Social Skills:
Deceive (trick or confuse people)
Provoke (influence people aggressively; Mari or Keiko negotiation)
Rapport (influence people in a friendly way; Noburi or Akane negotiation)
Empathy (read people)
Common Ninja Powers:
Chakra (general capacity, neutral ninjutsu)
Earth Ninjutsu (what it says)
Water Ninjutsu (what it says)
Fire Ninjutsu (what it says)
Wind Ninjutsu (what it says)
Lightning Ninjutsu (what it says)
Genjutsu (what it says)
Esoteric Ninja Skills (generally learned at high XP cost):
Sealing (writing, researching, and crafting seals)
Summoning (power and possibly efficiency of summons)
Technique Hacking (tweak existing jutsu, create new jutsu)
I'm not sure if there should be some kind of Academic/Education/Knowledge type skill - the problem mostly boils down to, "what challenges would a character roll this skill to overcome", and those are almost all either awkwardly wide-scale (analyzing city or nation-wide patterns) or likely to fit into another skill entirely (such as Crafts, or one of the social skills). Survival's another one - tracking can go into Alertness, camouflage into Stealth, and these characters have never had mechanical problems getting food without Chakra Beast involvement (which goes to the combat engine). There's nothing left that actually justifies it to stand alone mechanically.
Vecht
Self-Requested Ban
- Location
- Snarksville, Snarkland
- Location
- The Deep Blue Sea
Dude let's do it
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Okay, I did not know that. Made assumptions based off the name, and you know what they say about assumptions -- they make you wrong, sometimes. :>
Thanks for the clarification.
- Location
- Yes.
@eaglejarl Heads up, the tally wasn't updated before.