The thing is, part of increasing costs is that it allows us to use the QMs' XP curve from the old system (or a varation thereof) to determine how many points any given character has.

And if we do that (I think we should) then that completely throws the idea of deciding on benchmarks before applying house rules out of the window.
As someone who didn't have the best idea of how the old system worked, I can't really talk about it's merits or demerits.

But given the old system proved untenable for the QMs - and thus necessitated replacement - why attempt to maintain such an artifact if it may prove to further complicate matters?

My perspective was to approach MfD from standard M&M - with the caveats of not applying hard Power Level caps/limits and not giving a whit about point budgets - and then make house rules later to suit the MfD feel going forward.

My belief? Marked for Death is great because it's about exploiting the quick and dirty routes to power and working with individuals who have lots of issues but desperately want to be heroes and make a difference in a death world. Complications and roleplaying deal with the latter. The former? Well, M&M has a BUNCH of exploits for stuff like that already (Reaction Teleport 1, anyone? 5 PP and you Teleport out of the way of any attack you notice that isn't AoE as well as the exploit of not buying Presence and just grabbing the skills 'cause they're cheaper).

The XP curve isn't necessary for the MfD experience, IMHO. And given we want to make the QMs lives easier, then why make something so complicated as an XP curve? Especially when there are programs out there like Hero Lab that the QMs can use to keep track of character sheets and building NPCs and what not.

The M&M system works well on its own for converting MfD so long as you don't give a damn about how many points you spend in the beginning, or about maintaining a stable PL. Moving forward from there, and gaining experience to progress character growth and story? We'll have Hazou/Team undergo a session of training to declare what we want to learn/improve, and the QMs can just say "yeah, sure, let's give them X PP and let them spend that X on what they're training for".

Our QMs work hard on making this Quest such an awesome story. Lets not bog ourselves down in making the system they use to deliver that enjoyable plot with any more work/headache for them. Sticking to a rule-book with minimal house rules should make things far simpler for them. They can add house rules later if they feel like it improves both their ability to run things and improve our player experience.
 
@kenmadragon I don't think that the process of calculating XP was ever a drag on QMs; they had a character sheet to do that for them.
I know, but that's not the point I was trying to get across.

My point was "Why bother with a house rule that doesn't make things easier?" There are already programs for M&M out there (Hero Lab, for one, is especially well supported). And even if there aren't, using standard char-gen is simple math. House ruling PP costs just means more, unneeded math.

KISS: Keep It Simple, Stupid. That was the idea...
 
I know, but that's not the point I was trying to get across.

My point was "Why bother with a house rule that doesn't make things easier?" There are already programs for M&M out there (Hero Lab, for one, is especially well supported). And even if there aren't, using standard char-gen is simple math. House ruling PP costs just means more, unneeded math.

KISS: Keep It Simple, Stupid. That was the idea...
That's fair! Didn't mean to imply otherwise, I was just explaining.

That said: I do like the idea of increasing XP costs. I find it simulates the difficulty in getting better effectively, and is particularly important for something like Sealing, but equally important for other skills.
 
That's fair! Didn't mean to imply otherwise, I was just explaining.

That said: I do like the idea of increasing XP costs. I find it simulates the difficulty in getting better effectively, and is particularly important for something like Sealing, but equally important for other skills.
Yeah, but the QMs can do the same thing by being stingy with the players earning PP. Basically, I see three ways of simulating that difficulty:

If the QM hands out a bunch of PP all the time, then character growth is rapid under standard M&M. In this case, exponential growth of costs may be an option to hinder characters from growing too powerful too quickly/stupidly. As you might have gathered, I wouldn't recommend this option

However, if the QM is stingy, then players would need to hoard PP to spend on the improvements that would suit the stuff they've put the most effort into using, and thusly simulates the difficulty of improving pretty much anything.

Or QMs could be rather fair/standard with PP Awards, and then just deny any attempts to progress further than a certain level until they feel proper time and effort has been spent in the improvement of that field.

Hell, things like Abilities and Skills have tiers to that effect anyways. Abilities would have benchmarks (see the link I posted earlier), and skills ranks are pretty easy to assign tiers for too: 1-4 is beginner, 5-8 is skilled/professional, 9-12 is expert, and 13+ is supreme mastery.

The QMs could just say "Hey, if you want to advance a Skill like Expertise: Sealing from 4/beginner to 5/professional, you need to accomplish some deeds in game, and spend a lot of time practicing, honing your 'skills' in the Skill, and maybe learn something new or make a new Seal concept from scratch and implement it".

Rather than incentivize point-grubbing (which we'll probably do anyways, let's be honest) the QMs could thus encourage us to actually do things in-game and in-plot to justify breaking through these "bottle-necks" to advance our progress in Skill/Power/Ability.
 
I have the M&M 3E core rulebook, but I'm afraid I never played third edition much and only a few games of second edition so I'm not much of a system expert. Still, once I see the rules I can crack open the book and at least try to sort it out.

The QMs could just say "Hey, if you want to advance a Skill like Expertise: Sealing from 4/beginner to 5/professional, you need to accomplish some deeds in game, and spend a lot of time practicing, honing your 'skills' in the Skill, and maybe learn something new or make a new Seal concept from scratch and implement it".

Rather than incentivize point-grubbing (which we'll probably do anyways, let's be honest) the QMs could thus encourage us to actually do things in-game and in-plot to justify breaking through these "bottle-necks" to advance our progress in Skill/Power/Ability.

That seems rather sensible.
 
The QMs could just say "Hey, if you want to advance a Skill like Expertise: Sealing from 4/beginner to 5/professional, you need to accomplish some deeds in game, and spend a lot of time practicing, honing your 'skills' in the Skill, and maybe learn something new or make a new Seal concept from scratch and implement it".

Rather than incentivize point-grubbing (which we'll probably do anyways, let's be honest) the QMs could thus encourage us to actually do things in-game and in-plot to justify breaking through these "bottle-necks" to advance our progress in Skill/Power/Ability.
But doesn't this put the impetus on the QMs in a not-necessarily-good way?

Also, um, honestly, getting XP is fun :p
 
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But doesn't this put the impetus on the QMs in a not-necessarily-good way?
Not really?

I mean, we have the same exact hurdle as players/QMs when it comes to learning new jutsu, don't we? In M&M, we could literally power-stunt any jutsu we could pay for in game, and then later purchase that stunt as a permanent Alt-Effect with awarded PP.

But we can't/don't/won't because the QMs would say "actually, you can't use a totally new jutsu without an instructor/training montage to technique-hack".

Same principle - if we want to improve something past a certain rank (say Skill Rank 4, rank 8, etc), we would need QM permission. And the QMs would basically say "yeah, you proved you're at the next tier" or "go train and do stuff to prove you're ready to handle that tier."

Also, um, honestly, getting XP is fun
I whole heartedly agree with you. *nods nods*

But, I will say this: XP that we get easily and quickly is nice and all, but XP that we work hard for? XP that we earn through great effort, our blood, sweat and tears?

Soooo much more satisfying. :)
 
By the way, I like how you elegantly wove together several ideas into one interlude, as well as how in each case the strategies reflected the "real-life" personalities of Hazo and Co.
I forgot to thank you for this. It was nice to hear, since I wasn't entirely happy with the character interactions.


[...] given the old system proved untenable for the QMs - and thus necessitated replacement - why attempt to maintain such an artifact if it may prove to further complicate matters?

There were pieces of the Augjev rules (the original MfD rules that we are ejecting) that were very good and pieces that were very bad. In no particular order and not necessarily a complete list of either, and keeping in mind that this is all just my opinion:

Bad:
  • Exponential skill check system was a complete pain in the ass
  • A/B/C class success system wasn't bad, but the ranges were out of whack.
  • "attributes can't be used for anything but paywalls on skills" was a major mistake
  • Multiple combatant rules were a little fiddly and they had too many edge cases
  • All powers, jutsu, skills, and seals being ad hoc was what actually broke us. We realized we were going to have to design character sheets for everyone in the battle and the bottom fell out of our collective spoon drawer at the same time as a truckload of migraines dropped on all of us.
Good:
  • The XP curve. @OliWhail deserves all the credit for this one, as he's the one who did all the work. He created a spreadsheet (well, multiple candidates, settling on one final version after some discussion) that specifies that an average ninja (aka a "50%er") gets N XP per day, a top-level genius (99%er) like Itachi gets M XP / day, and people in the middle (e.g. 60%ers, 75%ers, etc) get A, B, C ... XP / day. Once we got that sheet put together it made XP assignments a breeze.
  • The multiple combatant rules. Fiddly, yes. Edge cases, yes. Still, they were relatively simple to use and they did a good job of simulating the idea that a team is much more effective than an individual, while also handling the fact that Jiraiya/Itachi/Hiruzen/etc are not going to be at risk from an army of 10,000 genin.
  • The skill range and skill list. Both were wide enough to allow for significant differences in ninja build but not so wide as to be a pain to keep track of.
  • The increasing costs of skills. It did a good job of preventing hyperspecialized builds, keeping power levels within a nice range, and not requiring any 'sledgehammer' rules, where a 'sledgehammer rule' is anything that involves the words "you can't do that because the rules say so".

Side note about the difficulty of balancing jutsu etc: We did not realize what we were getting ourselves into with the Vampiric Dew bloodline. Due to an accumulation of small mistakes in what the QMs approved we ended up with a bloodline that is insanely cheap to buy and turns its users into nigh-unstoppable combat gods as well as ridiculous utility monsters.


Yeah, but the QMs can do the same thing by being stingy with the players earning PP. Basically, I see three ways of simulating that difficulty:

If the QM hands out a bunch of PP all the time, then character growth is rapid under standard M&M. In this case, exponential growth of costs may be an option to hinder characters from growing too powerful too quickly/stupidly. As you might have gathered, I wouldn't recommend this option

However, if the QM is stingy, then players would need to hoard PP to spend on the improvements that would suit the stuff they've put the most effort into using, and thusly simulates the difficulty of improving pretty much anything.

Or QMs could be rather fair/standard with PP Awards, and then just deny any attempts to progress further than a certain level until they feel proper time and effort has been spent in the improvement of that field.

Hell, things like Abilities and Skills have tiers to that effect anyways. Abilities would have benchmarks (see the link I posted earlier), and skills ranks are pretty easy to assign tiers for too: 1-4 is beginner, 5-8 is skilled/professional, 9-12 is expert, and 13+ is supreme mastery.

The QMs could just say "Hey, if you want to advance a Skill like Expertise: Sealing from 4/beginner to 5/professional, you need to accomplish some deeds in game, and spend a lot of time practicing, honing your 'skills' in the Skill, and maybe learn something new or make a new Seal concept from scratch and implement it".

First thing first: I really, really appreciate the effort and thought that you're putting into thinking about the new system, spotting potential issues, and suggesting solutions. All three of the QMs are nervous about moving to an amalgamation of systems, the majority element of which (MM) is unfamiliar to all of us. Getting input from people who are familiar with it is priceless.

Next thing next: I'm not sure I agree with you on the above. To be honest, that all sounds like more work as opposed to less. 'Work' in this context means making judgement calls; here are examples of questions that cost spoons to answer:

  • What's a reasonable number of XP to award for this update, given that we're trying to be stingy?
  • Should character X be able to train up skill Y now or should they have to do something first?
  • If so, what should it be? Seal research, grinding at the gym, fetch quest...?
  • How long should they have to do that for before they can level their skills again?
  • How much should they be allowed to level up after doing it?

The XP curve + superlinear skill costs solve all of these. We know that by default Hazō will earn <foo> XP per day, so we just count how many days the update covered, decide if the quality of the plan deserves (very less) / (slightly less) / (no less) / (slightly more) / (very more) XP and voila. It encourages breadth of skills with just a couple of specializations (which matches canon well) and it doesn't require any sledgehammers like "you can't advance that any further because an arbitrary cutoff says so."


Rather than incentivize point-grubbing (which we'll probably do anyways, let's be honest) the QMs could thus encourage us to actually do things in-game and in-plot to justify breaking through these "bottle-necks" to advance our progress in Skill/Power/Ability.

I'm glad you said this because I was totally going to call you out on it. :>

Players are going to minmax no matter what the rules are, and QMs are going to put setting-based limits on things via "you can't create a new jutsu out of whole cloth, you need to find someone to teach it to you" or "you can't self-teach until you reach a minimum level of competence." Since these things are going to happen no matter what I don't see that they put weight on any particular aspect of the discussion.
 
But, I will say this: XP that we get easily and quickly is nice and all, but XP that we work hard for? XP that we earn through great effort, our blood, sweat and tears?
Preach it.

The original Great Rebalancing was necessary because we'd been overly generous with XP. You guys had rocketed up to special jōnin levels too quickly to be plausible, without really earning it. After TGR we had a better handle on how much XP to hand out, so progress was reasonable from then on. I feel as though people were much more excited when they looked at the character sheets and suddenly realized that they were getting back up to the heavy-hitter ranges.
 
ll three of the QMs are nervous about moving to an amalgamation of systems, the majority element of which (MM) is unfamiliar to all of us. Getting input from people who are familiar with it is priceless.

Next thing next: I'm not sure I agree with you on the above. To be honest, that all sounds like more work as opposed to less. 'Work' in this context means making judgement calls;
I will admit that I'm typically used to GMs making "Judgement Calls" fairly quickly. At the gaming table, I'm really quick about that kind of stuff as a GM, so perhaps there's bias there.

Then again, I completely forgot that there actually would be limitations to having Three Quest Masters - any judgement calls you make would neccessitate a vote of all three, and thus clogging things up because you would need to reach a consensus rather than be able to make the snap-calls that the traditional, singular GM would be capable of.

In the future, I'll try and keep that in mind, so thanks for that heads up!

Of course, I can't really help much about your lack of familiarity with the game. Honestly, the best way to learn a game like M&M would be to play it, not GM it for a game as demanding as Marked for Death. I do not envy you guys.

Though, now I have to wonder: All you QMs out there (@OliWhail, @eaglejarl, @Velorien), what are the TT RPG systems you are most familiar with, anyways?

The XP curve. @OliWhail deserves all the credit for this one, as he's the one who did all the work. He created a spreadsheet (well, multiple candidates, settling on one final version after some discussion) that specifies that an average ninja (aka a "50%er") gets N XP per day, a top-level genius (99%er) like Itachi gets M XP / day, and people in the middle (e.g. 60%ers, 75%ers, etc) get A, B, C ... XP / day. Once we got that sheet put together it made XP assignments a breeze.
What's a reasonable number of XP to award for this update, given that we're trying to be stingy?
Okay, I think I understand why the previous system found Exponential Growth manageable... you figured out programs to do the work for you. As a computer engineer, I can dig it.

Frankly, I think this is the serious issue with using M&M - the system just doesn't support an exponential growth curve for Costs without effecting everything because of the math inherent to the system.

By changing how much things cost... you're effectively changing how things that make M&M a convenient system to run like Power-Stunting, Inventing, Rituals and Artifice, and all that stuff works. Stuff that we would be using all the bloody time because of how Hazou was built in MfD.

By turning all PP costs into exponential growth curves, you've neutered anyone who uses the Artificer/Inventor/Ritualist rules, because then all the DCs for design/construction become prohibitively difficult and extremely expensive.

Power Stunting also becomes a chore because of the additional math involved in ensuring you're not spending more PP than you have to work with due to the exponential growths mucking with things (again, simple algebra vs exponential math - which do you want to do as a player when coming up a plan quickly? I would say algebra).

My Suggestion for a Solution to that problem:

How about we just divorce character growth from character PP? M&M normally uses PP as both the resource you build your character with, as well as as the resource you gain as you gain experience.

I suggest we split the two into Power Points (PP) and Experience Points (XP). Let the Power Points remain as they are in standard M&M. So whenever we Power Stunt, design and make Inventions/Artifice or create Rituals, and stuff, we're using PP which make the game coherent and straightforward.

However, you would not gain PP the normal way described in the M&M rulebook - you would have to use Experience Points to pay for the PP you use to improve your stats.

XP could then be controlled in a more strict way, as is typical in MfD. You could go with the exponential growth costs method as done in the previous rule-iteration of Marked for Death, if that's preferable.

So buying 1 PP for a certain Ability/Skill/Power/whatever would have it's own XP requirement. My preference would be "If you want to get a PP for Stat Y that is Rank Z, then pay Z XP. You then pay PP to buy the Stat to rank Z+1 as standard M&M." Or you could assign a different formula, but it would have to be reasonably consistent, I suppose. Doable with a program, but still kind of kludgy for my tastes...

Or... you could do something like declare a table of "XP to PP" conversions, that make PP expensive to buy for certain things. Much simpler, IMO.

You could then say something like "Buying 1 PP of Ability is 10 XP" and "Buying 1 SP of Non-Combat Skill is 5 XP" and "Buying 1 PP of Advantage is 12 XP" or whatever.

Or you could combine both the "Exponential Growth" and "Cost Table" ideas. Not sure how, yet, but I bet it would be doable.

This way, all the QMs need to do is decide "how much should X be worth", "how much XP does JoeSchmoe earn a day/week/month", and "What do the idiot PCs want to buy with their XP anyways?"

I think this would help retain the simplicity of working with M&M, but also allow us to maintain that feel of "character growth is a grind" that Marked for Death has had in the past.

Would that be amenable?
 
Preach it.

The original Great Rebalancing was necessary because we'd been overly generous with XP. You guys had rocketed up to special jōnin levels too quickly to be plausible, without really earning it. After TGR we had a better handle on how much XP to hand out, so progress was reasonable from then on. I feel as though people were much more excited when they looked at the character sheets and suddenly realized that they were getting back up to the heavy-hitter ranges.

One thought that came to mind, which may or may not be viable in the new or old system, is the idea of locking away earned XP until a significant fight/event or an extended training session. The XP award would still be announced at the end of each update as usual, but would be unusable until we unlock it by reaching one of those milestones. The idea behind it is that instead of an update with a big life-and-death fight giving us only 8 XP or so because it didn't last very long, by winning the fight we unlock the 50 XP we gained over the last couple weeks.

The first real problem I see about that is that things like learning new jutsu, something which shouldn't require very much XP for the low levels of the technique, would have to wait until the next milestone if we use up all of our XP, which seems unnatural. This could be counteracted by letting learning new jutsu (and only learning them) dip into the unspent XP in such a case, but I'm wary of adding in complications. And even then, it might be more of a bother than it's worth, but it could be interesting.
 
Maybe it's just personal now? At least, that could be the excuse Mist would give Leaf - have Zabuza kill the Team for betraying Mist, and then disavow him and declare Zabuza a missing-nin to cover their tracks. Say that Zabuza felt it was a personal insult that they'd evaded him for so long, and when he encountered them, lost himself in a rage and slew the Team for making him look bad or something.

*shrugs* It's inelegant for ninja in MfD, but I wouldn't put it past Mist to have it as a back-up back-up plan or whatever. Refuge in Audacity is a thing because it works every now and then.
Doesn't seem likely to me. For Zabuza, it'd be a suicide mission--not only would he become a missing-nin, he'd also give Leaf generally, and Jiraiya personally, a reason to hunt him. For Mist it's high-risk; Leaf might well see through the lie and retaliate. And what's the reward? Killing some kids that you've accepted as non-missing-nin over a personal grudge. One of whom, by the way, is related to the new Mizukage, and who is furthermore the key to her patching up relations with her estranged jonin-sister.

Also, if I don't misrecall, Jiraiya reported that Naruto killed Zabuza in the Great Showdown.
 
I will admit that I'm typically used to GMs making "Judgement Calls" fairly quickly. At the gaming table, I'm really quick about that kind of stuff as a GM, so perhaps there's bias there.

Then again, I completely forgot that there actually would be limitations to having Three Quest Masters - any judgement calls you make would neccessitate a vote of all three, and thus clogging things up because you would need to reach a consensus rather than be able to make the snap-calls that the traditional, singular GM would be capable of.
At least for me it's a breeze to make snap judgements at the table. There's a solid ruleset to give my decisions a framework, I don't need to consult anyone else, and the stakes are low -- I'm only dealing with 2-5 people, all of whom are good friends of mine, and we are interacting face to face in real time. Also, the campaign probably isn't going to last more than a few months or a year, and if something about the setting or the characters breaks then it's easy enough to stop that campaign and start a new one.

In the case of MfD, none of that applies. There's 3 QMs and we're spread over 8 time zones. We decided long ago that 2 was a quorum, but with really big issues we try to make sure that there is consensus. We're dealing with an indeterminate but high number of players with whom we don't have personal relationships, don't interact in real time, and we have the normal communication issues that occur with text-only.

So, yeah, it's a different set of challenges.


Though, now I have to wonder: All you QMs out there (@OliWhail, @eaglejarl, @Velorien), what are the TT RPG systems you are most familiar with, anyways?
Among the three of us we've got Champions, D&D, Dresden Files, BESM, L5R (I believe), and a few others that I can't recall offhand. All of them got considered and were mostly rejected.

Frankly, I think this is the serious issue with using M&M - the system just doesn't support an exponential growth curve for Costs without effecting everything because of the math inherent to the system.

Could you expand on that? What math are you talking about?


By changing how much things cost... you're effectively changing how things that make M&M a convenient system to run like Power-Stunting, Inventing, Rituals and Artifice, and all that stuff works. Stuff that we would be using all the bloody time because of how Hazou was built in MfD.

By turning all PP costs into exponential growth curves, you've neutered anyone who uses the Artificer/Inventor/Ritualist rules, because then all the DCs for design/construction become prohibitively difficult and extremely expensive.
I note that there's nothing I can think of in MfD that is a good match for the Inventing / Ritual / Artificing rules as I understand them. Check me to make sure I have it right:

First, all the mechanics are the same and the "three" skills are mostly just a palette swap on the names with a few tweaks to time required for the Ritual version

Inventing / Artificing:
  1. Two steps: design check, then construction check
  2. Design check (skill: Technology for inventing, Expertise: Magic for artificing):
    • DC 10 + PP cost (incl modifiers except Removable)
    • 1 hour / PP
    • If it fails you normally know about it and the only problem is that you have to start over. (If it fails really badly then you don't know and it will not function / will misfunction after the Construction check.)
  3. Construction Check (skill: same as before)
    • DC 10 + PP cost
    • 4 hr / PP
    • If it fails there's normally no effect. If it fails badly, or if the Design check failed really badly, then you can get a mishap
  4. If both checks pass you can use the thing exactly once in one scene and then it dies
  5. After it dies you can either:
    • Spend a hero point to reactivate it for 1 more use
    • Spend the PP to acquire it as a permanent power
    • Not stated in the rule book as far as I saw, but presumably "GOTO 1" is a valid option? i.e., repeat the Design and Construction checks and create another widget

Rituals are the same as Artificing except they take 10 minutes / PP to perform.


Compare this to Sealing in MfD, which looks like a good match but isn't really.
  1. Three steps: research, draw, infuse. (This could probably be modeled as a 'Design' check followed by two 'Construction' checks, so that's okay so far.)
  2. Research takes minutes to months. It generally involves multiple rolls. If any of them fail then you have a mishap but you don't lose progress.
  3. Draw takes minutes. You never know if you failed.
  4. Infuse takes negligible time. If you failed Draw or if you fail Infuse then there is always a mishap.
  5. If both checks pass then you can use the seal...a varying number of times, depending on what it is. Explosion tags, only once. 5SB seals, as many times as you want as long as the total active time is <= 30 days. etc.
  6. After a seal dies you cannot reactivate it, but you do not need to repeat the research phase next time around.
  7. You cannot spend XP to turn a seal into an always-available power
  8. Draw and Infuse rolls both get easier as you do them more often
There's a lot of similarities here, but the design goals are fundamentally different:

MM 'thingy creation' (Inventing, Rituals, or Artificing) is oriented around spending lots of time making single instances of a unique ability that's tailored for solving one problem and is intended to be used exactly once.

MfD sealing is oriented around very quickly creating many instances of a general-purpose power -- hence why Kagome was shouting at Keiko for 'only' having 200 explosives on her.

(Side comment: Then there's this bit from the MM rules: Although it's possible to prepare certain one-use devices in advance, the GM should require the player to spend a hero point to have a particular previously constructed invention conveniently on-hand during an adventure. I don't even understand the thinking behind that line, since the whole point of Inventing / Ritual / Artifice is to have one-use abilities on hand during an adventure.)


Power Stunting also becomes a chore because of the additional math involved in ensuring you're not spending more PP than you have to work with due to the exponential growths mucking with things (again, simple algebra vs exponential math - which do you want to do as a player when coming up a plan quickly? I would say algebra).
Assuming I'm getting the reference, here's what I think you're talking about:

  1. By using 'extra effort' (p 19), a character can use a Power Stunt (p20).
  2. There's is no cost for using 'extra effort' and it's a free action, so you can do it at will.
  3. A Power Stunt allows you to "Temporarily gain and use an Alternate Effect". I think there's an implied "on any one of your powers".
  4. An Alternate Effect (p 136) allows you to "swap out the effect [of a power] for an entire other, alternate, effect", as long as the AE has the same or fewer points in it. The examples they give are "swap a Damage (laser) effect for a Dazzle (visual)" and "swap Damage (fire) for Damage (ice)". There's a suggestion that the powers are supposed to be thematically linked, but that's explicitly stated as not a requirement.
So, if I'm following all this correctly, an MM character can swap his powers for any other powers he likes, at any time, for no cost, as long as the new power doesn't cost more than the one it's being swapped for? I hope I'm misunderstanding something.

Regardless, could you provide an example of where power stunting would make sense in MfD?

My Suggestion for a Solution to that problem:

How about we just divorce character growth from character PP? M&M normally uses PP as both the resource you build your character with, as well as as the resource you gain as you gain experience.

I suggest we split the two into Power Points (PP) and Experience Points (XP). Let the Power Points remain as they are in standard M&M. So whenever we Power Stunt, design and make Inventions/Artifice or create Rituals, and stuff, we're using PP which make the game coherent and straightforward.

However, you would not gain PP the normal way described in the M&M rulebook - you would have to use Experience Points to pay for the PP you use to improve your stats.

XP could then be controlled in a more strict way, as is typical in MfD. You could go with the exponential growth costs method as done in the previous rule-iteration of Marked for Death, if that's preferable.

So buying 1 PP for a certain Ability/Skill/Power/whatever would have it's own XP requirement. My preference would be "If you want to get a PP for Stat Y that is Rank Z, then pay Z XP. You then pay PP to buy the Stat to rank Z+1 as standard M&M." Or you could assign a different formula, but it would have to be reasonably consistent, I suppose. Doable with a program, but still kind of kludgy for my tastes...
How is this different from simply buying it with XP? I think you're saying that:

Raise Stealth from 5 to 6 => spend 5 XP for 1 PP, spend the PP to raise Stealth to 6
Raise Perception from 8 to 9: spend 8 XP for 1 PP, spend the PP to raise Perception to 9

The extra step doesn't seem to add anything. (Also, note that MfD actually charges for the level you're moving TO instead of FROM meaning you pay 9 XP to raise Perception from 8 to 9. That's a quibble, though.)

Would that be amenable?
I don't follow your suggestion, but I'm definitely amenable to whatever will make MM work better for representing MfD! And, again, thanks for helping us sort through this.
 
Assuming I'm getting the reference, here's what I think you're talking about:

  1. By using 'extra effort' (p 19), a character can use a Power Stunt (p20).
  2. There's is no cost for using 'extra effort' and it's a free action, so you can do it at will.
  3. A Power Stunt allows you to "Temporarily gain and use an Alternate Effect". I think there's an implied "on any one of your powers".
  4. An Alternate Effect (p 136) allows you to "swap out the effect [of a power] for an entire other, alternate, effect", as long as the AE has the same or fewer points in it. The examples they give are "swap a Damage (laser) effect for a Dazzle (visual)" and "swap Damage (fire) for Damage (ice)". There's a suggestion that the powers are supposed to be thematically linked, but that's explicitly stated as not a requirement.
So, if I'm following all this correctly, an MM character can swap his powers for any other powers he likes, at any time, for no cost, as long as the new power doesn't cost more than the one it's being swapped for? I hope I'm misunderstanding something.

Remember that M&M is explicitly designed to emulate comics. In comics sometimes a character will come up with a one-off application of their power to resolve a problem, but it's not something they normally do and would make no sense to mechanically model in the character. Like, let's say Batman is dealing with someone and for some reason it's absolutely vital he paralyze them without rendering them unconscious.

BATMAN PLAYER: What I'm going to do is make a special a martial arts strike that targets a cluster of nerves and induces temporary paralysis.

GM: Okay, spend a Hero Point and do it as an alternate effect of your Strike power.

Normally Batman doesn't go around nerve striking people to paralyze them, but it wouldn't seem weird if he did it this one time in a comic book.

Like all stuff in the superhero genre, it's open to wild abuse. There's no reason in theory you can't extra effort your flame blast power into a healing ray. But in practice it has to make sense in the fiction. You have to explain what's happening in a way that makes sense in the world or you can't do it. M&M depends on players and GMs alike agreeing that their objective is not to break the system but instead to have a fun game where they are playing out the adventures of a superhero comic.

Regardless, could you provide an example of where power stunting would make sense in MfD?

Hazou is fighting some dude throwing kunai. Keiko is down, having been heavily wounded. Because this is a bastard world, the kunai thrower decides that rather than attack Hazou, he's going to throw one at Keiko to make sure she dies.

Hazou does not have the Deflect power, so he uses Extra Effort on his Enhanced Fighting ability* to make it into Deflect. Unfortunately he did not see this one coming, so he has to make it Deflect pumped up with the Reaction extra so he can use it off-turn. That means he trades his Fighting (2/rank) for Reaction Deflect (4/rank) so he'll only be half as good... but better than nothing!

*Technically you can onyl use Extra Effort with Enhanced abilities, but given the way MfD is working I would bend that rule and allow it to work with standard abilities when it makes sense, like in this case.
 
So... hm. It occurs to me that small shields -- not big ones, certainly, but buckler, or slightly bigger, ones might be quite effective for ninja. However, given that they aren't used, they're clearly inferior to chakra-boosted-ninja... but a small enough shield might be able to be made out of chakra metal.
 
So... hm. It occurs to me that small shields -- not big ones, certainly, but buckler, or slightly bigger, ones might be quite effective for ninja. However, given that they aren't used, they're clearly inferior to chakra-boosted-ninja... but a small enough shield might be able to be made out of chakra metal.
It would tie up one hand, meaning you wouldn't be able to make handseals, meaning that you wouldn't be able to use ninjutsu aside from kawarimi. (Unless you're Hiruzen, of course. But he's dead.)
 
It would tie up one hand, meaning you wouldn't be able to make handseals, meaning that you wouldn't be able to use ninjutsu aside from kawarimi. (Unless you're Hiruzen, of course. But he's dead.)
Would it have to? I mean, couldn't you have the shield fastened to the back of your arm such that you could let go if it to perform handseals?

e: I did a bit of research: there are shields that use straps.
 
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Take a look at what some of the seals involve.

IIRC, Boar in particular makes anything around the wrist/forearm problematic.
Straps that leave the wrist/arm motive would seem to resolve that issue.

e: Granted, I do not think that non-chakra-metal shields will be useful for the same reason regular armor isn't: a chakra boosted chuunin level attack would blow right through it.
 
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Would it have to? I mean, couldn't you have the shield fastened to the back of your arm such that you could let go if it to perform handseals?

e: I did a bit of research: there are shields that use straps.
I believe all shields use straps, actually. It's just that you're holding one of the straps in your hand. If you didn't then there's a chance that a blow at the right angle would make the shield spin around your arm, which would make it stop being a protection and start being a hindrance.
 
I believe all shields use straps, actually. It's just that you're holding one of the straps in your hand. If you didn't then there's a chance that a blow at the right angle would make the shield spin around your arm, which would make it stop being a protection and start being a hindrance.
While there are strict center-grip shields
as a point of pedantry, you are correct overall.

Guess we oughta work on Animated Shield Seals, eh? :p
 
While there are strict center-grip shields
as a point of pedantry, you are correct overall.

Guess we oughta work on Animated Shield Seals, eh? :p
I'd forgotten about those, yeah. They're pretty doofy -- you get much less stability out of them and all the force of the attack goes into your knuckles and the small bones of your hand instead of into the muscle of your forearm.
 
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