Remove ads

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Reader mode
Veedrac said:
Assume Leaf is a rational agent. Then figure out what their logical set of behaviours will be in reaction to this.
  1. They will have a need to have influence over the pangolins.
    • This means they're forced to treat us well.
    • This means they're more likely to form an alliance with the pangolins.
  2. They will have a need to accept this deal sooner.
    • This means they have less opportunity to push the deal into unfavourable terms.
Where is the downside?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
You said it yourself, they're forced to treat us well. That is not goodwill. That does not lead to a safe haven for us.

Down the line...Keiko still needs to do missions. There's no way Leaf won't think about sending her on a mission that gets her killed, and "retrieving" the summoning scroll for a Leaf Jonin who can influence the Pangolins just as well, if not better, than Keiko could.

Note: In this scenario, we're disappeared*.
Kiba said:
The Polemarch was afraid of Keiko's power.



The bosses expressed concern that Keiko doesn't have any clan backing to protect her.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
  • Still proves my point that he's willing to kill her. Also like to point out that he threatened to kill her for being a missing-nin.
  • They expressed concern because Keiko is an asset, but her situation makes her likely-to-die, and the summoning scroll may or may not fall into the wrong hands (read: tapir/condor summoner, who will throw the scroll into a volcano). That's a massive blow to the Pangolins.
Veedrac said:
Jiraiya has explicitly stated that he will happily slaughter non-Leaf citizens to protect the Leaf. He is not a guarantor because he doesn't have a motive to protect us beyond just kind'a being a nice person. That's not nearly enough in this scenario.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
He's already stuck his neck out for us on multiple occasions. Against Leaf's own interests/rules/customs, no less.
  • By not killing us in order to prevent Hidden Mountain from falling into the wrong hands.
  • By letting us live in Konoha (temporarily), bending their laws to the breaking point.
  • By letting us live after we threatened a senior Konoha official, despite the political poison we suddenly became.
Veedrac said:
I need to sleep now so this is going to be quick, but the basic answer is that the pangolins are at a position of relative disadvantage (compared to Leaf and the toads), so they are likely to be willing to trade up to get to be part of leading negotiations with Leaf. It gives them power they otherwise wouldn't have. The reverse doesn't hold to the same extent.

In contrast, if we're Leaf citizens, any trade we do with the pangolins is going to be through proxy of Leaf. This harms our position, because it means Leaf controls what terms we can give and forces the pangolins to concede things to Leaf, which are costs that come off our profits.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Ah, I see.

I feel that we're having a conflict of interests here: You seem to be focused on getting the best deal between Pangolins and Leaf, whereas I'm trying to placate Leaf as much as possible, to keep them from having reason to kill us. Again. For, like, the 6th fucking time.
 
Ok, trying to set up a plan here that I think prioritizes the best research. Some stuff lifted from other plans, so credit due to where it's due.

[X] Plan Developed Concept

Goals:
  • Survive
  • Do R&D to improve the team's bargaining position with Leaf.
Timeframe: One month.

Actions:
  • Kagome's primary project will be improving skywalkers.
    • Skywalker Research Ideas.
      • Make it last longer.
        • This also make it safer to use, as we don't want to switch in the middle of an operation or fighting a chakra monster.
        • Increase duration by using a better design.
        • Trade air dome size for duration.
        • Trade air dome durability for duration.
        • Trade air dome thickness for duration.
        • These configurations should undergo combat and safety tests.
      • Make it safer.
        • Figure out a method of water proofing the seal. Maybe wrap it in leather bag and tie it to the cartridge/shoe?
        • Consider a purifier or tunneler's friend variant to get rid of moisture.
        • Last resort is to figure out a new substance for smoothed stone medium to draw seals on.
      • Make it more convenient.
        • Why? We don't want to be caught with our pants down while switching shoes.
        • Develop a slot/cartridge system of some kind for easy switching.
          • Hazō sucks at crafting, so this is more of Kagome-sensei's thing.
          • Maybe interleaved wedges to hold the cartridge in place, like interleaved telephone books.
          • Have a pulley handle so that the user can pull the cartridge out.
          • Should withstand combat testing.
        • Shrink the seal design to fit within the slot system. The smaller the better.
  • Hazou should work on the following research, if approved by Kagome. Kagome will help as needed.
    • Cooling Seals
      • Variant that allows water to be frozen into ice, if variant temperature control can't be worked into the seal.
    • Heating Seal
    • Lamp Seal (illuminates surroundings)
  • Keiko and Pangolins
    • Keiko will inform the Pangolins of the team's intention to bargain with Leaf for citizenship, and will request the help of a skilled negotiator for when the time comes.
      • Emphasize that this is mutually beneficial to the Pangolins if successful - their summoning scroll will be safely ensconced in Leaf, ensuring that they will have a continued presence on the human path so long as Leaf prospers.
      • What the team intends to bargain will inevitably come up. Ask that the matter be discussed only with the Pangolins who have the highest clearance before telling them, as the team is taking operational security regarding Skywalker technology very seriously. State that the team believes that they can get the best deal from Leaf only if they do not get wind of the Skywalkers before negotiations open, and as such trading the technology to the Pangolins will come later. Further, with the war brewing it would be best if the Pangolins coordinate their own deployment of Skywalkers, should they wish to use them given their religious concerns over flight, with Leaf (and possibly the Toads) to ensure the element of surprise is used to maximum effect against their respective enemies.
        • The engineering Pangolin will need clearance on this matter to help with the skybase project. (see below)
    • Keiko will work with the engineering Pangolin to hash out the skybase concept. The goal is to have enough of the logistical problems with skybases as a quickly deployable ninja base figured out to show the value of Keiko's logistics expertise, the Pangolins' engineering prowess, and the team as idea generators rather than having a complete product. Detailed notes, blueprints, and other such things for presentation and use by Leaf engineers should be kept.
      • Work out what needs to be done to keep multiple ninja teams reasonably comfortable for habitation in a skybase by military standards. This includes trying to work in creature comforts like showers
      • Reuse existing seal technology as much as possible to sole problems, like using storage seals to ensure a good supply of food and fresh water.
      • Consider working in a modular concept so that design, construction, and expansion of skybases are easier to plan and train for.
      • Consult Kagome about possible security features.
      • Work in Cooling and Heating Seals should Hazou be able to finish them. Examples: Heating seals to heat water for hot showers, or for flameless cooking.
  • Mari should...
    • Help Keiko with Pangolin diplomacy as needed.
    • Be consulted regarding the best way to start negotiations with Leaf and Jiraiya.
      • Do we send our full list of initial conditions to Jiraiya with a statement that we have something to trade that we feel is worth the list?
      • Do we send a general notice that we seek Leaf citizenship and a few unspecified demands with a statement that we have something to trade that we feel is worth it?
      • Do we just request a meeting stating an intent to trade new sealing tech?
      • In any of the above, should we suggest he be pre-authorized to negotiate terms on behalf of Leaf's leadership?
      • In any of the above, do we suggest that what we want to trade is better than the skytowers?
    • Otherwise enjoy some R&R on a southern island. Mari-sensei deserves a vacation for putting up with us.
  • Noburi has fun being a mad scientist. He runs his experiments however he likes (he would know better than Hazou what to research here, after all). Hazou asks him to tell us if he finds anything cool.
  • At the end of the month, the team should assess their gains and consider whether they should move forward with negotiations.

Ok, some of my reasoning for this plan:
1. If we want to get some low hanging fruit to offer Jiraiya, I think we should test out the Mountain Seals to see what they do. Hazou can already make blanks for them IIRC, and the seals should be functional unless Mountain's sealmasters are utterly incompetent and didn't test their seals before using them. Possibly a bust, but also possibly something that gives us some seals Jiraiya has never seen before to add to what we have to trade. If nothing else, it's further intel on Mountain's capabilities we can provide to Leaf.
2. I believe that Mari's comments about skybases are being ignored - she said "If we gave them skywalkers as part of a package with the sky base concept and all necessary supporting technologies, that would be more likely to catch their attention." While I don't think we could make a fully functional skybase that would let civilians stay there, making a good, hashed out concept for a quickly deployable ninja base is still something of value that we can present.
3. Why no skyships? Honestly, because building one suitable for war is likely to take way more time than we have. Even prototyping doesn't provide anything valuable in and of itself unless we have at least a couple functional seals to prove the concept. I would prefer to keep the skyship idea under our hat so that we have an idea to share with Leaf after we join up to further prove that we have value and that letting us join was the right idea. We should also have plenty of time to develop the concept once we are in Leaf.
4. If we're making use of the engineering pangolin, then they're going to find out about skywalkers, so we might as well have a plan to talk to them about it and why we're not offering them up immediately. Bargaining with Leaf for citizenship and military concerns should fit well with this, and they'll want us to get Leaf citizenship since it will ensure their continued presence on the human path.
 
Last edited:
Is there a reason to work on heating/cooling seals right now? If we're building a Leaf package, we should focus on our comparative advantage. I'd suggest impulse seals if Hazou can swing it, or just training up on skywalkers if not.

@Enjou, skywalker base engineering is a good idea. Not sure about the wording of your pangolin stuff; will try and write about it tomorrow.
 
Last edited:
Langevin said:
Is there a reason to work on heating/cooling seals right now? If we're building a Leaf package, we should focus on our comparative advantage. I'd suggest impulse seals if Hazou can swing it, or just training up on skywalkers if not.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The reason FMPOV is that we need to have an ice supply to keep Keiko's contract.

But if we get access to Leaf in the next...7 weeks...we have access to Akane.

Who has Elemental Mastery.

Which can make ice easily.
 
faflec said:
The reason FMPOV is that we need to have an ice supply to keep Keiko's contract.

But if we get access to Leaf in the next...7 weeks...we have access to Akane.

Who has Elemental Mastery.

Which can make ice easily.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yeaah. Not sure it's worth the opportunity cost even if we aren't in Leaf by then. (Though, to clarify, people are thinking a couple months on this max, right? (Do we need another poll? :p ))
 
Langevin said:
Yeaah. Not sure it's worth the opportunity cost even if we aren't in Leaf by then. (Though, to clarify, people are thinking a couple months on this max, right? (Do we need another poll? :p ))
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
godfuckingdamnit

This is why I want to go to Leaf after a short lighthousing session.

I want people to stop faffing about going to Leaf and just fucking do it.
 
After SV added the new vote tally people were commenting that CounterBot was broken. After six hours of testing I have not been able to prove this -- can someone point to a vote they made in the last update period that was not counted, or a plan that was dropped?

Alternatively, here's the current tally starting from the most recent chapter; please let me know if anything is missing.


CounterBot, version 1.7


Plan name: Setting Up for Leaf
Voters: @faflec, @fiirofa, @Kiba
Num votes: 3


Plan name: This Island Could Use A Lighthouse
Voters: @MadScientist, @Traiden
Num votes: 2


Plan name: Developed Concept
Voters: @Enjou
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Poll: (Meta) Stop with these polls before we go insane again.
Voters: @faflec
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Poll: (Timeframe) Pangolins first
Voters: @Veedrac
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Poll: (Timeframe) work on projects until the team feels our bargaining position is strong enough
Voters: @Oneiros43
Num votes: 1


Plan name: Village hidden in the Crater.
Voters: @Dark as Silver
Num votes: 1


Plan name: long term goals
Voters: @Oneiros43
Num votes: 1



Number of voters: 9
 
March 2017 topped 5,000 posts in one month for the first time ever.

Monday netted us well over 300 posts, roughly 12 pages, and we're not even in crisis mode.

I am unsure why everyone else has Hazō working on something unrelated to skywalkers when he can contribute. Chakra adhesion was the hard part, after all.

Also, we should have him train his MechApt if we want him to be any of use to the Airship project.
 
Kiba said:
Ask Pandaa (and maybe Panjandrum) about Skywalker implications for Pangolins: especially discuss the "heresy" thing that went on when we sold skytowers.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Do you intend to reveal Skywalkers to the pangolins? If not, should specify that we avoid doing so, e.g. by discussing it as a vague hypothetical.

Liking the plan otherwise. Might also want to include a "QM's choice of scene"? Plan's not too long, and they tend to enjoy those.

Also, would you mind explaining the reasons for doing zeppelins now? They're cool, but I feel like Leaf won't see much marginal use in them if they're already getting skywalkers.

---
More generally: we're all agreed on putting together a good package for Leaf so we can get the most out of them. What is it that we want to get out of them? Security and autonomy primarily, followed by family extractions. So if we're not sure on tech directions, stuff that improves those (giving us less to ask Leaf for) should be the tiebreaker. Particularly for extractions--for security a lot comes down to just what Leaf will let us get away with.

Skywalkers are pretty good on this front. Is there other research that would help us significantly? Specifically stuff that Leaf might not already have, or would offer us only at a hefty cost?
 
Kiba said:
I am unsure why everyone else has Hazō working on something unrelated to skywalkers when he can contribute. Chakra adhesion was the hard part, after all.

Also, we should have him train his MechApt if we want him to be any of use to the Airship project.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
In order:

Skywalker research was so hard that Kagome nearly had a sealing failure (2 points away); chakra adhesion being the hard part doesn't particularly reassure me that it's not going to cause high risk of further failures for Hazou. Additionally, Kagome and Hazou cannot work on it at the same time and combine their research, so there is no point in Hazou wasting his time there when Kagome has already commited to doing further research in it.

I'm slightly less against raising Hazou's MechApt now, but on the other hand, we're heading back to Leaf, which may mean getting to advise Akane on her training again, and she's already at 15 MechApt, so...

Oh yeah; @OliWhail @eaglejarl @Velorien Is the Banshee seal triggerable by timed chakra pulse as explosive seals/PMYF is, or do we need to adjust that?

If we could make a variety of temperature-raising seal that works like Elemental Mastery, that would be great: It could be used in forges to help produce a hotter flame. That's a direct military advantage if we can convince Leaf to allow their smiths access to it.
 
Cariyaga said:
In order:

Skywalker research was so hard that Kagome nearly had a sealing failure (2 points away); chakra adhesion being the hard part doesn't particularly reassure me that it's not going to cause high risk of further failures for Hazou. Additionally, Kagome and Hazou cannot work on it at the same time and combine their research, so there is no point in Hazou wasting his time there when Kagome has already commited to doing further research in it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Kagome-sensei and Hazō collaborated together at the beginning of the skywalker project, which suggests that they thought it was a good idea.

Now that Hazō learned the skywalker seal, the TN should be lower than before.

Cariyaga said:
I'm slightly less against raising Hazou's MechApt now, but on the other hand, we're heading back to Leaf, which may mean getting to advise Akane on her training again, and she's already at 15 MechApt, so...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

We are focusing on showing Leaf that Hazō is not a one-trick pony by developing prototypes.

Cariyaga said:
If we could make a variety of temperature-raising seal that works like Elemental Mastery, that would be great: It could be used in forges to help produce a hotter flame. That's a direct military advantage if we can convince Leaf to allow their smiths access to it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

You would be happy to know that I consider a heating seal pretty mandatory. Tunneler's Friend is doable, but only a stopgap. I do not want to spend the time deforesting and burning wood.

Cooling seal is not much of a priority, unless we have an urgent need to keep the engineer summon. I do not foresee much values for her in contributing to the airship project.
 
faflec said:
I feel that we're having a conflict of interests here: You seem to be focused on getting the best deal between Pangolins and Leaf, whereas I'm trying to placate Leaf as much as possible, to keep them from having reason to kill us. Again. For, like, the 6th fucking time.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
The best deal includes a higher chance of being treated well, which includes not being killed. With your Keiko-suicide-mission hypothesis, remember that the pangolins will be going on said mission, since Keiko will summon them during it, remember that having her killed before Skywalkers have been deployed would be the most transparent ploy in the world, and that having her killed after they are deployed has no real advantages.

You might jump at the word "forced", but it's "forced" as in "forced to treat your customers well so that they pay you". That's absolutely reasonable. If Jiraiya was going to get angry that Keiko is working with the pangolins, he wouldn't have given her the scroll in the first place.
 
Last edited:
If the pangolins can't be trusted as Keiko's ally to work in the summoner's interest, then why the fuck did we continue her summon contract?

This extremely negative and paranoia fueled interpretations of the pangolins' behaviors can do us more harm than good, just as the hivemind was paranoid about the weather in the Land of Snow. At least it was nothing huge, as our own paranoia can backfire on us.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top