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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Kiba said:
If you want to rescue Hana, then a telescope won't suffice.
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I'm not talking about rescuing Hana, but about drawing plans of every major village (bar Leaf) as a proof of capabilities and a fairly safe espionage activity. I agree that there has been no sufficient plan to risk "rescuing" Hana.
faflec said:
We.

Are.

Never.

Sufficiently.

Paranoid.
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We're never going to learn if we stop trying. Now is a great time to try; the risks are minimal, the dice are on our side, the puzzle is nigh-unsolvable bar a specifically specced ninja and you haven't done anything dumb since I got here. Even Kagome knows when to take a risk.
 
Enjou said:
So basically you want to do a high risk infiltration without any plan on what our objectives are... this still doesn't sound even remotely like a good idea to me.
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Please give me a little benefit of the doubt. Obviously I'm not going to push the idea until there is a plan to work from. I put it out there for brainstorming.
 
Enjou said:
So basically you want to do a high risk infiltration without any plan on what our objectives are... this still doesn't sound even remotely like a good idea to me.

Also, I imagine we'd stick out like a sore thumb. We wouldn't necessarily look like the people there, we would probably have a different accent, there could be culture differences we won't know about due to their isolationism, etc.
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Sorry to interject, but I think you should take a moment to yourself. I'm not sure you mean to be, but you're coming across kind of antagonistic. I understand your point of view, just rather conversation be productive.
 
Kiba said:
[X] Action Plan: Setting Up for Leaf

Goals:

1. Research and development.
2. Get the Pangolins on board.
3. Figure out what our goals should be in the negotiation.

  • Hazō and Kagome-sensei do Research
    • Talk to the team about how much improvement they should do on the Skywalker Tech.
      • Keep in mind:
        • Spending too long on the skywalker project preclude other opportunities to develop new seals or sealtech.
        • Skywalker technology may not need as major improvement if other aerial technology becomes available.
          • Airships could easily replace skywalkers for long range strategic movement, but takes a long time to develop.
          • Gliders are clearly already possible.
          • The various use-cases Leaf might have for skywalkers, such as military engineering, tactical strikes, strategic strikes, and so forth.
          • The idea that Leaf sealmasters could continue where we left off WRT skywalker research so we don't need to spend all our time on it.
      • Discuss with the team about which projects they should pursue for Skywalker.
        • How long the duration of skywalker seals should last? 30 minutes? 1 hour? 2 hours?
        • How convenient it should be? Is it really necessary to have a cartridge/slot system if skywalkers approach the length of one hours plus in term of duration.
        • Should Kagome-sensei and Hazō go overkill on safety research?
      • Finalize goal for Skywalker Research.
    • Do Sky Walker Research. Pick from list of ideas. See Spoiler for more details.
    • Skywalker Research Ideas.
      • Make it last longer.
        • This also make it safer to use, as we don't want to switch in the middle of an operation or fighting a chakra monster.
        • Increase duration by using a better design.
        • Trade air dome size for duration.
        • Trade air dome durability for duration.
        • Trade air dome thickness for duration.
        • These configurations should undergo combat and safety tests.
      • Make it safer.
        • Figure out a method of water proofing the seal. Maybe wrap it in leather bag and tie it to the cartridge/shoe?
        • Consider a dehumidifier to get rid of moisture.
        • Last resort is to figure out a new substance for smoothed stone medium to draw seals on.
      • Make it more convenient.
        • Why? We don't want to be caught with our pants down while switching shoes.
        • Develop a slot/cartridge system of some kind for easy switching.
          • Hazō sucks at crafting, so this is more of Kagome-sensei's thing.
          • Maybe interleaved wedges to hold the cartridge in place, like interleaved telephone books.
          • Have a pulley handle so that the user can pull the cartridge out.
          • Should withstand combat testing.
        • Shrink the seal design to fit within the slot system. The smaller the better.
    • Prototype airship. See Zepplein wiki for more details.
      • Start by constructing a sky lantern and get a feel about how they work.
      • Try different shapes to see how they move through the air. Use wind techniques to blow winds.
        • Sphere
        • Cube
        • Half-sphere
        • Cigar shape
        • And other shapes.
      • If fire keep burning the prototypes down, consider developing heating seal before moving on.
      • Scale prototype up. See how much mass a prototype lift.
  • Mari-sensei and Keiko do Pangolin Diplomacy
    • Talk to Panchipaama, the Naraka Roller head. Need to see if she's cool with us, or is still pissed. Figure out concessions.
    • Talk to Paneru (military engineer) tomorrow; figure out what she has to offer and/or relevant information.
    • Ask Pandaa (and maybe Panjandrum) about Skywalker implications for Pangolins: especially discuss the "heresy" thing that went on when we sold skytowers.
    • Maybe see if we can get more on Pangolin history/lore?
  • Noburi do Research
    • Hazō and Kagome-sensei will consider Noburi's ideas when he broach the subject.
    • Continue his research into chakra water.
    • Consider cataloguing and dissecting animals on the island.
    • Consider collecting plants too.
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Done. Team discuss how much effort they should spend on skywalker research and what improvements they want to see. Added a research section on airship.

I don't see any particular use for the engineer unless we interview her and see what she's capable of. She could just be a sapper pangolin, which is fine, but we don't need an underground base.
 
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@Kiba You shouldn't be putting fire anywhere near the prototypes to start with. Make a campfire, absorb the hot air with a Tunneler's Friend, and release that into the balloon.
 
Cariyaga said:
Sorry to interject, but I think you should take a moment to yourself. I'm not sure you mean to be, but you're coming across kind of antagonistic. I understand your point of view, just rather conversation be productive.
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Sorry, but the idea as it came across seemed utterly insane and I am pretty antagonistic to very bad ideas. I do quality assurance for a living, so criticizing stuff with blunt honesty is basically my job.
 
Kiba said:
[X] Action Plan: Setting Up for Leaf

Goals:

1. Research and development.
2. Get the Pangolins on board.
3. Figure out what our goals should be in the negotiation.

  • Hazō and Kagome-sensei do Research
    • Talk to the team about how much improvement they should do on the Skywalker Tech.
      • Keep in mind:
        • Spending too long on the skywalker project preclude other opportunities to develop new seals or sealtech.
        • Skywalker technology may not need as major improvement if other aerial technology becomes available.
          • Airships could easily replace skywalkers for long range strategic movement, but takes a long time to develop.
          • Gliders are clearly already possible.
          • The various use-cases Leaf might have for skywalkers, such as military engineering, tactical strikes, strategic strikes, and so forth.
          • The idea that Leaf sealmasters could continue where we left off WRT skywalker research so we don't need to spend all our time on it.
      • Discuss with the team about which projects they should pursue for Skywalker.
        • How long the duration of skywalker seals should last? 30 minutes? 1 hour? 2 hours?
        • How convenient it should be? Is it really necessary to have a cartridge/slot system if skywalkers approach the length of one hours plus in term of duration.
        • Should Kagome-sensei and Hazō go overkill on safety research?
      • Finalize goal for Skywalker Research.
    • Do Sky Walker Research. Pick from list of ideas. See Spoiler for more details.
    • Skywalker Research Ideas.
      • Make it last longer.
        • This also make it safer to use, as we don't want to switch in the middle of an operation or fighting a chakra monster.
        • Increase duration by using a better design.
        • Trade air dome size for duration.
        • Trade air dome durability for duration.
        • Trade air dome thickness for duration.
        • These configurations should undergo combat and safety tests.
      • Make it safer.
        • Figure out a method of water proofing the seal. Maybe wrap it in leather bag and tie it to the cartridge/shoe?
        • Consider a purifier or tunneler's friend variant to get rid of moisture.
        • Last resort is to figure out a new substance for smoothed stone medium to draw seals on.
      • Make it more convenient.
        • Why? We don't want to be caught with our pants down while switching shoes.
        • Develop a slot/cartridge system of some kind for easy switching.
          • Hazō sucks at crafting, so this is more of Kagome-sensei's thing.
          • Maybe interleaved wedges to hold the cartridge in place, like interleaved telephone books.
          • Have a pulley handle so that the user can pull the cartridge out.
          • Should withstand combat testing.
        • Shrink the seal design to fit within the slot system. The smaller the better.
    • Prototype airship. See Zepplein wiki for more details.
      • Start by constructing a sky lantern and get a feel about how they work.
      • Try different shapes to see how they move through the air. Use wind techniques to blow winds.
        • Sphere
        • Cube
        • Half-sphere
        • Cigar shape
        • And other shapes.
      • Use Tunneler's Friend to store hot air from a fire rather than using a fire directly.
        • Do not keep the seal near the campfire as that invites DISASTER.
        • Instead, build a sideway tunnel using MEW for hot hot air to follow.
        • If Tunneler's Friend doesn't work as well as hoped against a fire in the balloon, develop heating seal.
      • Scale prototype up gradually. See how much mass they can uplift.
  • Mari-sensei and Keiko do Pangolin Diplomacy
    • Talk to Panchipaama, the Naraka Roller head. Need to see if she's cool with us, or is still pissed. Figure out concessions.
    • Talk to Paneru (military engineer) tomorrow; figure out what she has to offer and/or relevant information.
    • Ask Pandaa (and maybe Panjandrum) about Skywalker implications for Pangolins: especially discuss the "heresy" thing that went on when we sold skytowers.
    • Maybe see if we can get more on Pangolin history/lore?
  • Noburi do Research
    • Hazō and Kagome-sensei will consider Noburi's ideas when he broach the subject.
    • Continue his research into chakra water.
    • Consider cataloguing and dissecting animals on the island.
    • Consider collecting plants too.
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Added tunneler's friend hot air idea, clarify the dehumidifer seal to be a variant of tunneler's friend/purifier.
 
i must object on making any new deals with the pangolins. We got screwed last time with the towers, and I think we'll be better equipped for negotiations when we're part of a village, instead of a bunch of technique starved missing-nin.

At the least, seeing where they start the negotiations for more 5SB seals gives us an idea on whether they were holding back because of distrust of our ideas or simply the difference in need between both parties.
 
@Kiba

I can't find anything about Cooling Seals in there. We will lose the Pangolin engineer if we don't have that seal by the time we run out of ice, and they would be really useful.
 
MadScientist said:
@Kiba

I can't find anything about Cooling Seals in there. We will lose the Pangolin engineer if we don't have that seal by the time we run out of ice, and they would be really useful.
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We don't know if the Pangolin engineer is any of use to us. I suspect she's more like a combat engineer rather than someone who can advise us on our airship.

Though I could add a condition about making a cooling seal if 2 weeks has passed and we need her expertise or if Keiko insists on keeping the pangolin summon.
 
Kiba said:
Though I could add a condition about making a cooling seal if 2 weeks has passed and we need her expertise or if Keiko insists on keeping the pangolin summon.
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I think we should start on the seal early enough that we expect to finish before we run out ice. I'm not certain that 2 weeks will satisfy that, I can't actually remember how much ice we're giving them per day/week/whatever.
 
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Feels like we could do any sealing projects faster with (partial) access to the Leaf Sealing library, and rescuing Hana better with access to leaf resources. I want to get on with it and go to leaf.

We only have so much time before war breaks out, after all.
 
I feel like a good plan at this point is one which begins to get us a little information on the world and what's been happening. This likely means contacting Jiraiya, and information gathering in Tea. We can send Jiraiya a message through the Pangolins, or we can talk to his agent in Tea. Unrelated, I'd like to try to do simple observations of civilian towns to practice skytower observation for feasibility, and potentially to get Noburi a test subject for civilian -> ninja experiments.
 
Could do our first skywalker observation mission on Hidden Mountain. Would get us useful information and help us learn how to do it well later (e.g. in a rescue Hana mission)
 
Erwing said:
i must object on making any new deals with the pangolins. We got screwed last time with the towers, and I think we'll be better equipped for negotiations when we're part of a village, instead of a bunch of technique starved missing-nin.

At the least, seeing where they start the negotiations for more 5SB seals gives us an idea on whether they were holding back because of distrust of our ideas or simply the difference in need between both parties.
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This is almost perfectly the opposite of how I see it.
  • Leaf are the ones who risk screwing us over, because once we offer the deal we can't back our or they'll at minimum mind-read us for the information, probably worse.
  • The power imbalance is much worse with Leaf.
  • The pangolins can't screw us over, because they rely on us to have any influence on the human path.
  • The pangolins are invested in our long-term safety already, because as their summoner we are important to them.
  • The pangolins want us to join a clan (they've commented as much) but don't want the clan to steal all our shit.
  • The pangolins want tie-in to the toads and Leaf more than vice-versa.
  • The deal gives the pangolins a chance to claim back some relative standing next to the toads, which are otherwise unimpeachable due to said tie-in.
  • Leaf already has air superiority; their need for Skywalkers is merely a wish for excess.
  • The pangolins are at an air disadvantage; their need for Skywalkers is particularly large.
We can offer firm deals to the pangolins and just walk away if they're not met. This hasn't been the case before; it would have been silly to do the same with watchtowers, for example. With Skywalkers, the pangolins effectively don't have a choice to say no unless we actually ask for more than the Skywalkers are worth, and given how much they're worth that's not particularly likely.

In contrast, Leaf doesn't need Skywalkers that badly, and if we try to walk away from a deal they wrestle us into (you're the sealing slave, you're the sealing slave servant!) we'll be fully aware that Leaf's most sensible course of action is to kill us.

Pangolins first.
 
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Veedrac said:
This is almost perfectly the opposite of how I see it.
  • Leaf are the ones who risk screwing us over, because once we offer the deal we can't back our or they'll at minimum mind-read us for the information, probably worse.
  • The power imbalance is much worse with Leaf.
  • The pangolins can't screw us over, because they rely on us to have any influence on the human path.
  • The pangolins are invested in our long-term safety already, because as their summoner we are important to them.
  • The pangolins want us to join a clan (they've commented as much) but don't want the clan to steal all our shit.
  • The pangolins want tie-in to the toads and Leaf more than vice-versa.
  • The deal gives the pangolins a chance to claim back some relative standing next to the toads, which are otherwise unimpeachable due to said tie-in.
  • Leaf already has air superiority; their need for Skywalkers is merely a wish for excess.
  • The pangolins are at an air disadvantage; their need for Skywalkers is particularly large.
We can offer firm deals to the pangolins and just walk away if they're not met. This hasn't been the case before; it would have been silly to do the same with watchtowers, for example. With Skywalkers, the pangolins effectively don't have a choice to say no unless we actually ask for more than the Skywalkers are worth, and given how much they're worth that's not particularly likely.

In contrast, Leaf doesn't need Skywalkers that badly, and if we try to walk away from a deal they wrestle us into (you're the sealing slave, you're the sealing slave servant!) we'll be fully aware that Leaf's most sensible course of action is to kill us.

Pangolins first.
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Why didn't we walk away from the watchtower deal, then? That was nowhere near the value of that sealing tech. We were traded one basic ninjutsu and a summon contract with a cook, where with Jiraiya we were given a lot of money.
 
I am done with editing my plan for tonight.

@faflec Feel free to ping me tomorrow again with the contingencies and other stuff I might have missed.
@MadScientist I remember your suggestion about cooling seal development. Feel free to ping me about that tomorrow as well.

If I have missed people's suggestion or didn't respond to your suggestion and arguments, let me know.
 
Veedrac said:
Pangolins first.
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Pangolins getting Skywalkers is going to implode everything. Why?

Because they will use them.

Other Summoning clans will take note.

This will trickle down into the Human Path through their summoners.

Other countries will know that there exist flight seals/jutsu that can be used by the basic foot soldier.

They will prepare accordingly, defensively (anti-flight measures) and offensively (trying to replicate the effects).

We lose our surprise advantage, and degrade the value we give to Leaf.
 
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