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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Vecht said:
Speaking for myself at least, I think if we added a section to deal with Mari and adding explicit things to test with seals (as in my plan) would be a massive improvement.
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Cariyaga said:
Sealing stuff and Mari stuff. You could always use the Seals Solve Everything Action from the Hivemind Aggregate Plan.

Regarding the latter, I'm not particularly comfortable with my contributions being taken at face value without any real iteration.

e: Got :ninja:'d
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Well, we can't train Sealing levels and research at the same time, so I thought it best if we train now and use those additional levels sooner rather than later. As for Mari... yeah I forgot about her issues. Still, we don't have to do everything we can think of in a single update. There will be plenty of talking already when we have our team conversation about Hidden Mountain. It may be for the best if we wait a bit before we try to talk to Mari since that conversation will most likely hinge on what we decide to do with our Skywalker seals and our goals moving forward.

I do think both of those scenes should be done, but I don't believe they have to be done immediately. The longer we make plans the more likely it is that we will overlook something, something may happen during the update we need to address, and/or the update will have to be broken up into multiple parts. For such scenes such as confronting Mari and experimenting with seals we should devote much more time than a last minute edit. Such drastic changes haven't ended well for us before and I doubt I would be able to pull it off now.
 
Dictator4Hire said:
Well, we can't train Sealing levels and research at the same time, so I thought it best if we train now and use those additional levels sooner rather than later. As for Mari... yeah I forgot about her issues. Still, we don't have to do everything we can think of in a single update. There will be plenty of talking already when we have our team conversation about Hidden Mountain. It may be for the best if we wait a bit before we try to talk to Mari since that conversation will most likely hinge on what we decide to do with our Skywalker seals and our goals moving forward.

I do think both of those scenes should be done, but I don't believe they have to be done immediately. The longer we make plans the more likely it is that we will overlook something, something may happen during the update we need to address, and/or the update will have to be broken up into multiple parts. For such scenes such as confronting Mari and experimenting with seals we should devote much more time than a last minute edit. Such drastic changes haven't ended well for us before and I doubt I would be able to pull it off now.
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I respect your opinion here, though disagree.

[] Action Plan: Stop, Think, and Act
[-] Action Plan: Stop, Think, and Act

I will change this vote to your plan if you include a link to the Seals Solve Everything plan.

Edit: Specifically, this is not a last-minute edit, and is rather a merging of plans that have been vetted and reviewed. Although I agree on the count of the Mari-related plan. It has not been reviewed thoroughly.
 
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Dictator4Hire said:
Well, we can't train Sealing levels and research at the same time, so I thought it best if we train now and use those additional levels sooner rather than later. As for Mari... yeah I forgot about her issues. Still, we don't have to do everything we can think of in a single update. There will be plenty of talking already when we have our team conversation about Hidden Mountain. It may be for the best if we wait a bit before we try to talk to Mari since that conversation will most likely hinge on what we decide to do with our Skywalker seals and our goals moving forward.

I do think both of those scenes should be done, but I don't believe they have to be done immediately. The longer we make plans the more likely it is that we will overlook something, something may happen during the update we need to address, and/or the update will have to be broken up into multiple parts. For such scenes such as confronting Mari and experimenting with seals we should devote much more time than a last minute edit. Such drastic changes haven't ended well for us before and I doubt I would be able to pull it off now.
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We discussed the whole research thing with eaglejarl earlier to clarify, and we can do research, just it takes place AFTER training is complete.

Also, I'm not sure it isn't a good idea to have more time to discuss our options if it turns out we have a multi-part update; we haven't really come to an accord on Leaf.
 
I like @Cariyaga's suggestion of having the hivemind leave the decision of joining Leaf or not to Hazou the person. We've shown ourselves, as a thread, to be solidly divided in half about the issue, and we've debated enough to know that if we even can come to any consensus it'll be a grueling process.

We've handled ourselves well reacting to forces outside our control, making the best of bad things. I think that we'll do better by letting Hazou himself set his decision in stone and then have us make plans around that course of action. At the very least we can start focusing our efforts on actually accomplishing something other than proving how divided we are.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
I like @Cariyaga's suggestion of having the hivemind leave the decision of joining Leaf or not to Hazou the person. We've shown ourselves, as a thread, to be solidly divided in half about the issue, and we've debated enough to know that if we even can come to any consensus it'll be a grueling process.

We've handled ourselves well reacting to forces outside our control, making the best of bad things. I think that we'll do better by letting Hazou himself set his decision in stone and then have us make plans around that course of action. At the very least we can start focusing our efforts on actually accomplishing something other than proving how divided we are.
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Yep, pretty much hit the nail on the head as to why I suggested it!
 
Vecht said:
Can we try to avoid racing to the bottom please?
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Yeah, this. I trust OliWhail to be able to account for our previous influence on Hazou's psyche (even if I didn't trust the other QMs; I do, but I'm pointing out that they have a former player on their side), we don't need to argue about it if we choose to go this way. If we were going to argue about it, I wouldn't have suggested this to begin with.
 
Vecht said:
Can we try to avoid racing to the bottom please?
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I literally have no idea how that applies to this situation.

If you want I could find all the textual evidence of why Hazou would want to go to leaf. I just feel like I might be a bit biased in cause it's opposed to my desires.

also ultimately this is just an excuse to go through and reread MfD with a critical view. Love doing that stuff
 
Oneiros43 said:
I literally have no idea how that applies to this situation.

If you want I could find all the textual evidence of why Hazou would want to go to leaf. I just feel like I might be a bit biased in cause it's opposed to my desires.

also ultimately this is just an excuse to go through and reread MfD with a critical view. Love doing that stuff
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That's fair; it's just that I suggested this as a way for the playerbase to focus on more productive things than the decision as to whether to join Leaf or not (which is turning out to be a highly unproductive debate), so looking through the story for reasons to support or dissuade Hazou from joining Leaf goes against that.
 
Vecht said:
@Dictator4Hire, for ease of linking:

Action: Seals Solve Everything
  • Complete all specified training, and then begin a new training/research timeslot.
    • Complete the skywalker research.
    • Research the rest of Jiraiya's seals.
    • Kagome will do all of the new research. Hazou helps *only* if Kagome thinks he can do without sealing failure.
    • Also help Noburi with his projects, as promised.
  • Hazou Sealing Focus:
    • Hazou should discuss invisible ink with Kagome in more detail. Once both are satisfied that the idea carries only acceptable levels of risk, Hazou attempts to produce a prototype invisible seal. The prototype should be a seal that Hazou has mastered, to minimise risks. Hazou should try drawing Kagome's seals too if it works for him(though leave Kagome to infuse them).
    • While Kagome is working, and if Hazou has time, work on infusing as many seals as possible that are within his ability to do so to get the TNs as low as possible. Prioritize these from the easiest to the hardest, according to his and Kagome's best judgement.
    • Once they are sufficiently low, create *tons* of minor variants based on straightforward application of principles from other seals we have mastered. Prioritize ideas that can be cross-applied to other seals. They don't even have to be particularly useful. Examples:
      • Minor variations on alarm seals to beep at different intervals, frequencies, or just varying number of beeps.
      • Timing delays on everything already mastered.
    • The goal is to have a litany of sorts to draw from and to slowly and safely expand Hazou's repertoire such that he can take on more complicated things with greater safety margins.
  • Macerator combat applications:
    • Get Kagome (or Hazou if he thinks it's safe) to make timed macerator v2s for Kei, using the same principle as PMYF.
    • Get Kagome (or Hazou if he thinks it's safe) to work on different versions with varying spread angles. At least two would be great: One highly focused in a small area, and one with a much wider area.
    • Test using ice in Macerators.
      • This could be a powerful weapon as it would leave no trace or indication as to what did the damage.
      • Further test using poisoned ice (or ice laced with paralytic) against chakra beasts to determine effectiveness. Ask Noburi for assistance here.
    • As part of Hazou's training, work on incorporating Macerators into his Taijutsu/Roki style.
    • Have everyone else practice using them as well. Use at various ranges to get a feel for aiming with various types of ammo, and possibly also with the variants listed above.
  • Skywalker Combat applications:
    • Have Keiko teach Vacuum Step to Mari. Have Mari use a clone to test using Vacuum Step to escape up in the air, and then using Skywalkers to stay there. If this works, we may want to invest points in everyone getting Vacuum Step for quick escapes with Skywalkers.
    • Have everyone practice using Skywalkers to enhance their TacMov and evasion capabilities.
    • Have Hazou in particular work on incorporating Skywalkers into his Taijutsu/Roki style.
  • Other Ideas:
    • Adjust Usamatsu's Seal and the Tunneler's Friend Seal to create a facemask for breathing (using Tunneler's Friend) and Kurosawa's Glorious Life-Destroying Device (stores breathable air, pumps out toxins).
    • Usamatsu's seal for campfire use
    • Test Banshee Killer + (modified?) Alarm Seals
    • Casino Seals:
      • If Kagome thinks we can do this, try reproducing Casino seals.
      • Try to break it down to individual light and sound seals.
      • Then try to figure out how it detects molding chakra.
      • See if we can apply these principles as minor variants, or use them as triggers to other seals.
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That is a ton of research to do in one update. We spent weeks trying to create a prototype Skywalker seal and we don't even have a finished version yet. Would it not be better to try to lower the TN of the most useful seal we can think of just to see how long the process will take? Otherwise I'm concerned that trying to do all of this at once will result in a at most half a year long update in game. The plan really needs a set time limit so we don't accidentally use so much time just for experimenting with seals.

E: IIRC, it also took us months in game to create PMYF, a derivative of storage seals which are the seals we have probably made the most of since Hazou learned Sealing besides explosive seals. Making PMYF v2.0 also took a large chunk of time and that was only one alteration on a seal Hazou himself created.
 
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I think I finally came around. I'll stay around and see what will happen no matter the decision we'll make.

However, I am still opposed to joining Leaf.
 
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Oneiros43 said:
I literally have no idea how that applies to this situation.
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If you go looking for evidence to support anti-Leaf-Citizenship, then this forces pro Leaf-Citizenship players have to do the same to counteract your efforts. We wind up spinning our wheels and wasting time and effort cancelling each other out, and only adding to the exact problem this suggestion was intended to solve.

Oneiros43 said:
If you want I could find all the textual evidence of why Hazou would want to go to leaf. I just feel like I might be a bit biased in cause it's opposed to my desires.
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You have a stake in the outcome, so you, as you mention, cannot be trusted to do this and be unbiased. At best we'd have to have a Leaf-Citizenship biased person do the same thing to try and cancel your efforts out.

Going back and rereading is fine. Nobody is saying don't do that. However, if you start to post *any* tidbits supporting anti-Leaf with the intention of affecting the outcome of "Plan: Let Hazou decide" then I will mutually defect by cancelling out your votes for no less than 10 voting periods.

How do I do this? I vote for every active plan you do not vote for. The effect is that every plan is +1 vote total, rendering both of our votes meaningless.

I do not believe you have any ill-intent and do not mean this to be taken as an effort to coerce you. I just want to demonstrate my willingness to mutually defect against any defection of this nature. And trust me, I am deadly serious when it comes to these things.
 
Dictator4Hire said:
That is a ton of research to do in one update. We spent weeks trying to create a prototype Skywalker seal and we don't even have a finished version yet. Would it not be better to try to lower the TN of the most useful seal we can think of just to see how long the process will take? Otherwise I'm concerned that trying to do all of this at once will result in a at most half a year long update in game. The plan really needs a set time limit so we don't accidentally use so much time just for experimenting with seals.
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These are good points, and I should probably edit the post to take that into account. I wasn't saying "Do this now" so much as "This should be Hazou's focus for sealing research in the future". I can edit out that part if needed.
 
Vecht said:
You have a stake in the outcome, so you, as you mention, cannot be trusted to do this and be unbiased. At best we'd have to have a Leaf-Citizenship biased person do the same thing to try and cancel your efforts out.

Going back and rereading is fine. Nobody is saying don't do that. However, if you start to post *any* tidbits supporting anti-Leaf with the intention of affecting the outcome of "Plan: Let Hazou decide" then I will mutually defect by cancelling out your votes for no less than 10 voting periods.

How do I do this? I vote for every active plan you do not vote for. The effect is that every plan is +1 vote total, rendering both of our votes meaningless.

I do not believe you have any ill-intent and do not mean this to be taken as an effort to coerce you. I just want to demonstrate my willingness to mutually defect against any defection of this nature. And trust me, I am deadly serious when it comes to these thing
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All right but if we go down this plan and you decide to post any thing that is an argument for leaf I will also defect in the ways you describe as well as releasing all the textual arguments I find.
 
Dictator4Hire said:
That is a ton of research to do in one update. We spent weeks trying to create a prototype Skywalker seal and we don't even have a finished version yet. Would it not be better to try to lower the TN of the most useful seal we can think of just to see how long the process will take? Otherwise I'm concerned that trying to do all of this at once will result in a at most half a year long update in game. The plan really needs a set time limit so we don't accidentally use so much time just for experimenting with seals.

E: IIRC, it also took us months in game to create PMYF, a derivative of storage seals which are the seals we have probably made the most of since Hazou learned Sealing besides explosive seals. Making PMYF v2.0 also took a large chunk of time and that was only one alteration on a seal Hazou himself created.
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Um, I'm pretty sure it only took like 2 weeks to create PMYF. (e: I judge it to be 70% probability)
 
Dictator4Hire said:
That is a ton of research to do in one update. We spent weeks trying to create a prototype Skywalker seal and we don't even have a finished version yet. Would it not be better to try to lower the TN of the most useful seal we can think of just to see how long the process will take? Otherwise I'm concerned that trying to do all of this at once will result in a at most half a year long update in game. The plan really needs a set time limit so we don't accidentally use so much time just for experimenting with seals.

E: IIRC, it also took us months in game to create PMYF, a derivative of storage seals which are the seals we have probably made the most of since Hazou learned Sealing besides explosive seals. Making PMYF v2.0 also took a large chunk of time and that was only one alteration on a seal Hazou himself created.
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I don't think experimenting with seals is a problem? Probably some in-game event will interrupt us soon enough.
 
Vecht said:
These are good points, and I should probably edit the post to take that into account. I wasn't saying "Do this now" so much as "This should be Hazou's focus for sealing research in the future". I can edit out that part if needed.
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If you could edit in a set time limit like one week I'd be fine adding this in as background research Hazou can do over the course of the update. Prioritizing which alterations in the order you want most would also be appreciated.

I have to admit though that I am a bit confused. If you didn't want to do all of this now, why insist on having it in the next update? Shouldn't that be a poll instead if it's non-binding for the upcoming update? As is it certainly reads "like do this now" rather than as a framework for multiple updates, unless I'm still interpreting this wrong? Clarification would be deeply appreciated.
 
Dictator4Hire said:
If you could edit in a set time limit like one week I'd be fine adding this in as background research Hazou can do over the course of the update. Prioritizing which alterations in the order you want most would also be appreciated.
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I have edited the post to remove reference to creation of any new seals, besides allowing Kagome to complete Skywalkers while we are training and the Delayed and Spread/Focused variants on Macerators. I also added the time limit.

Dictator4Hire said:
I have to admit though that I am a bit confused. If you didn't want to do all of this now, why insist on having it in the next update? Shouldn't that be a poll instead if it's non-binding for the upcoming update? As is it certainly reads "like do this now" rather than as a framework for multiple updates, unless I'm still interpreting this wrong? Clarification would be deeply appreciated.
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That was a mistake on my part. I did not intend it as "do it now" but rather "this is the mindset we should instill in Hazou going forward". I agree that should be subject to more discussion, and I should be more careful to split discussion/supporting info, and actual action plans. Chalk it up to originally writing that (~3k word) plan well into the wee hours of the morning.
 
Hm. So had a Technique Hacking/Sealing combination idea for use with Vacuum Step. Create a seal that serves as a chakra beacon that you can lock onto with a technique associated; such as substitution. Modify Vacuum Step to function similarly to Substitution; avoid intermediary obstacles, approach the target.

...Huh. You know, the sound of thunder is caused by a change in pressure. Flying Thunder God... ...!

e: ...could you add this insight to Hazou's discussion with Kagome? If I just figured out the secret behind Hiraishin I am going to be so bemused.
 
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