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@eaglejarl @Velorien Sorry to bother you guys about really minor stuff, but in chapter four, there's Shirogane, who was asked by Inoue to store some stuff. He seemed to be the quartermaster.

"Maehara's Acting Quartermaster after what happened to Shinagawa, and he has orders to give you the supplies you need - conditional on you convincing me that you have a good use for them. So I'll give you twenty minutes to discuss, and then I'll hear you out.

Is Shirogane the same guy as Shinagawa or is that a different guy altogether?

I am putting together a list of swamp nins in the minor characters page.
 
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@eaglejarl @Velorien Sorry to bother you guys about really minor stuff, but in chapter four, there's Shirogane, who was asked by Inoue to store some stuff. He seemed to be the quartermaster.


Is Shirogane the same guy as Shinagawa or is that a different guy altogether?

I am putting together a list of swamp nins in the minor characters page.
Different people. Shirogane was some random genin who happened to be nearby and made a convenient cargo dolly.

@eaglejarl @Velorien Not to nag, but did we ever get a consensus on how Akane's Technique Hacking would end up going down post lvl15?

Edit: I mean like the XP and stuff.

I'm confused...no one in the group has Technique Hacking and I'm not sure what you're asking about re: XP. Can you rephrase for me?
 
IF we're going to do the whole failure analysis thing, we need to do it right. That includes me not doing all the work. ;)
 
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We might be able to have nature take care of our evidence by coating PMYF tags and targets in a material that animals would want to gather or made fully of meat to further mask long distance stealth travel. It would be in line with our habits thus far and there are not shortage of chakra beasts to harvest the required materials for this.
Plus, imagine the surprise on a punching enemy nin's face when instead of hitting a log after substitution, they hit a side of steelback pork with spines still attached.
 
OK. Analysis time. I'm going to try to put on my Jiraiya hat and think about this from his perspective. Hopefully this helps. Apologies for messy formating, I'm on a phone.

Radvic's Analysis of Jiraiya, and potential solutions

Personality:

OOC, we know Jiraiya is 'good' in some way. He's generally a nice guy, amiable, but fiercely loyal to Leaf and competent. All this checks out with things we've observed thus far of Jiraiya's actions.

Evidence:
  • "I like this team" - in response to Keiko attempting to defend Inoue
  • Jovial tone in all our face to face interactions
  • Warning about not trying to take over the world
  • "No unknowing suicide missions"
Motives:

OOC, I don't know of any special motives of Jiraiya. IC, we know he is a Leaf-nin, so serving Leaf is probably his highest motive. After that, he seems to want the world to be better (or at least not worse?)

Evidence:
  • Is high ranking Leaf-nin
  • Runs spy network, presumably for Leaf
  • Seemed sad Orochimaru decided not to care about people
  • Seems to be actively attempting to prevent the next ninja war
Current concerns:

We know some of Jiraiya's specific concerns. He initially found us while investigating Iron, and was probably concerned about our loose canon status. After solving both these problems handily, he probably mostly put us out of his mind and returned to his other duties. Exactly what those are is mildly unclear. His next interaction with us is to send us an angry message. So, he's unhappy with what we did.

Evidence
  • He found us
  • He used us
  • He paid us off
  • He paid us little mind (didn't return our message initially)
  • Fairly immediately made the connection we were responsible for the Hot Springs fiasco and attempted to contact us in at least one way (we're yet to see if he will also contact us via other means)

Possible reasons he's upset with us, and what he might want

It's pretty clear Jiraiya's upset, but knowing exactly why is important. Here's some different reasons. Most likely, it's a combination of all these. The subpoints are actions he'd likely take if that's a reason he's upset with us
  1. We broke the DMZ and heightened political tensions worldwide, making war more likely
    1. Turn us in to prevent a wild goose chase leading to the next World War
    2. Use us to track down our employer, preventing future international incidents
    3. Do a lot of political scrambling to stop everyone from killing each other
  2. We killed a couple ninjas
    1. Justice? I'm unclear on how ninja society deals with ninja killings, probably not a huge jail population
    2. Make us do their jobs if they were his?
  3. We stopped a message (we don't know what the message was)
    1. Attempt to get the message from us
    2. Possibly make us deliver the message
  4. We didn't tell him before or while doing a high impact mission
    1. Emphasize we need to tell him things?
    2. Emphasize we need to not take missions
      1. Kill us
      2. Trust us
  5. We accepted a mission from an unknown source
    1. Emphasize we need to not take missions from unknown sources
  6. We are acting as loose canons (again)
    1. Make us not loose cannons
      1. Keep us closer (use us more)
      2. Kill us
Actions:

From Jiraiya's perspective, I can see two main avenues of interacting with our team: 1. Killing us and turning us in. 2. Putting us on a short leash and using us for dangerous missions. Here's what I see as his pros and cons to each

Killing us


Pros:
  • Stops us from messing up the world or his plans again
  • Gains some international recognition by bringing in the DMZ violators
  • Cools international tensions by ending the wild goose chase
Cons:
  • Loses an unreliable but competent asset
  • Possible negative repercussions with Pangolins (likely mitigated by giving the scroll to someone else)
Leashing us

Pros:
  • A competent denyable asset
  • Possible benefit on VHitM interactions
Cons:
  • Risks us running wild again
  • Ties up some of his reliable assets (depending on method of leash)
Conclusions

From this, if I were him, I'd try to talk to us in a place where he could kill us to make sure we did what he thinks we did, and gain all the usable information from us that he can. Then, at the end of the interaction, I'd decide either to leash us, or kill us. Right now, the evidence seems to favor killing us. The primary thing we need to do in our chat with Jiraiya is convince him the pros in keeping us around are high and the cons of killing us great. To me, this means (in order of importance):
  1. Demonstrating (somehow) that we are loyal to him
  2. Emphasizing the diplomatic in with VHitM (which we use to help him)
  3. Helping resolve the issue we caused (specifics dependant on what the biggest issues for Jiraiya are that we caused)
 
OK. Analysis time. I'm going to try to put on my Jiraiya hat and think about this from his perspective. Hopefully this helps. Apologies for messy formating, I'm on a phone.

Radvic's Analysis of Jiraiya, and potential solutions

Personality:

OOC, we know Jiraiya is 'good' in some way. He's generally a nice guy, amiable, but fiercely loyal to Leaf and competent. All this checks out with things we've observed thus far of Jiraiya's actions.

Evidence:
  • "I like this team" - in response to Keiko attempting to defend Inoue
  • Jovial tone in all our face to face interactions
  • Warning about not trying to take over the world
  • "No unknowing suicide missions"
Motives:

OOC, I don't know of any special motives of Jiraiya. IC, we know he is a Leaf-nin, so serving Leaf is probably his highest motive. After that, he seems to want the world to be better (or at least not worse?)

Evidence:
  • Is high ranking Leaf-nin
  • Runs spy network, presumably for Leaf
  • Seemed sad Orochimaru decided not to care about people
  • Seems to be actively attempting to prevent the next ninja war
Current concerns:

We know some of Jiraiya's specific concerns. He initially found us while investigating Iron, and was probably concerned about our loose canon status. After solving both these problems handily, he probably mostly put us out of his mind and returned to his other duties. Exactly what those are is mildly unclear. His next interaction with us is to send us an angry message. So, he's unhappy with what we did.

Evidence
  • He found us
  • He used us
  • He paid us off
  • He paid us little mind (didn't return our message initially)
  • Fairly immediately made the connection we were responsible for the Hot Springs fiasco and attempted to contact us in at least one way (we're yet to see if he will also contact us via other means)

Possible reasons he's upset with us, and what he might want

It's pretty clear Jiraiya's upset, but knowing exactly why is important. Here's some different reasons. Most likely, it's a combination of all these. The subpoints are actions he'd likely take if that's a reason he's upset with us
  1. We broke the DMZ and heightened political tensions worldwide, making war more likely
    1. Turn us in to prevent a wild goose chase leading to the next World War
    2. Use us to track down our employer, preventing future international incidents
    3. Do a lot of political scrambling to stop everyone from killing each other
  2. We killed a couple ninjas
    1. Justice? I'm unclear on how ninja society deals with ninja killings, probably not a huge jail population
    2. Make us do their jobs if they were his?
  3. We stopped a message (we don't know what the message was)
    1. Attempt to get the message from us
    2. Possibly make us deliver the message
  4. We didn't tell him before or while doing a high impact mission
    1. Emphasize we need to tell him things?
    2. Emphasize we need to not take missions
      1. Kill us
      2. Trust us
  5. We accepted a mission from an unknown source
    1. Emphasize we need to not take missions from unknown sources
  6. We are acting as loose canons (again)
    1. Make us not loose cannons
      1. Keep us closer (use us more)
      2. Kill us
Actions:

From Jiraiya's perspective, I can see two main avenues of interacting with our team: 1. Killing us and turning us in. 2. Putting us on a short leash and using us for dangerous missions. Here's what I see as his pros and cons to each

Killing us


Pros:
  • Stops us from messing up the world or his plans again
  • Gains some international recognition by bringing in the DMZ violators
  • Cools international tensions by ending the wild goose chase
Cons:
  • Loses an unreliable but competent asset
  • Possible negative repercussions with Pangolins (likely mitigated by giving the scroll to someone else)
Leashing us

Pros:
  • A competent denyable asset
  • Possible benefit on VHitM interactions
Cons:
  • Risks us running wild again
  • Ties up some of his reliable assets (depending on method of leash)
Conclusions

From this, if I were him, I'd try to talk to us in a place where he could kill us to make sure we did what he thinks we did, and gain all the usable information from us that he can. Then, at the end of the interaction, I'd decide either to leash us, or kill us. Right now, the evidence seems to favor killing us. The primary thing we need to do in our chat with Jiraiya is convince him the pros in keeping us around are high and the cons of killing us great. To me, this means (in order of importance):
  1. Demonstrating (somehow) that we are loyal to him
  2. Emphasizing the diplomatic in with VHitM (which we use to help him)
  3. Helping resolve the issue we caused (specifics dependant on what the biggest issues for Jiraiya are that we caused)
I think it would be safe for us to also reveal to him, if he's not already aware of it, that Hazou has a not-insignificant amount of skill in sealing and the creativity to put it to good use. We can demonstrate this with the simplicity and effectiveness of PMYF. We can offer to share with him and leaf our Macerator-Flashbang if/when we finish its development process, or something. I'm sure that deniable sealing assets are significantly more rare than simple missing nin.
 
Ah, that makes more sense. No, sorry. No final answers yet.
Yeah MB, I miswrote.
Possible negative repercussions with Pangolins (likely mitigated by giving the scroll to someone else)
Pangolins are apparently big on honor and related stuff, and the Toad summoner (who is effectively the representative of the Toads in the Human Path) killing the Pangolin summoner (again, representative of the Pangolins in the Human Path) would probably be a pretty big thing. As long as we make it clear to the Pangolins and Jiraiya that the Pangolins know that there's a meeting going on, it could tip the scales in our favor.
If he want to kill us, he wouldn't do it in Rice, Orochimaru's backyard.
It is completely possible Jiraiya thinks we got ourselves recruited by Orochimaru sometime after we parted ways. After all, we did spend time looking at an obvious Orochimaru recruitment center in Tea AND made the Hot Springs/Konoha ninjas think we were running to Rice.

Why he would tell us to meet in Rice, I dunno. Perhaps he expects us to respond with an ambush with Orochimaru and is attempting to set up his own counter-ambush to kill his former teammate, likely with aid from Konoha.

Of course, if we were working with Orochimaru, Orochimaru would also notice the obviousness of Jiraiya's actions ("go to Rice, I'm going to have words with you" seems like perfect bait to get rid of a nuisance and powerful enemy shinobi) and recognize it as a trap; he'd order us to go alone and fake ignorance (and general stupidity), leaving the ambush squad within fleeing distance if Jiraiya (with/without his allies) decided to kill us.

Jiraiya would have also recognized this and had his allied forces not engage us and follow our post-conversation actions from a distance, he'd try to locate and then circle around Orochimaru and bait the trap; OR have his forces strike directly at major Hidden Sound military bases while their forces are depleted from readying the ambush.
 
Right now, the evidence seems to favor killing us.

What you are missing from your calculus is that our team consists of 13-14 year old kids. This leads to two things:
  1. If Jiraya is trying to be a "good guy" and make the world a better place, he will actively try to choose not killing kids when he can
  2. We are very competent for our age and will only get better. There is a big long term payoff in teaching us to be less murdery
    • This also goes against too strict of a leash (like brainwash sealing or timed explosives seals crafted to our skulls), what he probably wants out of us is loyal long term assets that can work independently

There's also the fact that in ninja missions things go horribly wrong all the time. Jiraya should be experienced enough to know that sometimes mistakes are made and the best way to deal with them is to learn from them and move on. That has more to do with how personally Jiraya feels about the whole incident, not so much with what he is going to do about it.
 
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Oh, that reminds me, as cute as it may be, we should probably make clear to Akane that we think of her as a friend first and apprentice second.
 
Pangolins are apparently big on honor and related stuff, and the Toad summoner (who is effectively the representative of the Toads in the Human Path) killing the Pangolin summoner (again, representative of the Pangolins in the Human Path) would probably be a pretty big thing. As long as we make it clear to the Pangolins and Jiraiya that the Pangolins know that there's a meeting going on, it could tip the scales in our favor.
Yeah, I don't really know Pangolin politics. But I certainly wouldn't rely on it. Jiraiya could just tell them we were working fir Orochimaru or some other villian and while there'd be consequences, I don't know how severe they'd be.

Why he would tell us to meet in Rice, I dunno.
My guess is that it's where he is. Leaf has him investigating, and since it looks like we fled to Rice, that's the prime suspect. It also makes it more likely he can talk to us without other Leaf nin finding out.

If Jiraya is trying to be a "good guy" and make the world a better place, he will actively try to choose not killing kids when he can
If this were Earth, I'd agree. As this is a ninja death world and we've already personally killed 7 people, I feel the 'they're just kids' argument doesn't really hold any weight.

We are very competent for our age and will only get better. There is a big long term payoff in teaching us to be less murdery
  • This also goes against too strict of a leash (like brainwash sealing or timed explosives seals crafted to our skulls), what he probably wants out of is loyal long term assets
We are powerful and likely to become more powerful, but that can go either way. If Jiraiya thinks he can't control us, then us being super competent and likely to get stronger means it's more important he stop us (either by recruiting or killing). I don't see this as a point which supports killing or leashing us, but makes doing one or the other more important. And yeah... I doubt Jiraiya's about to pull out brainwashing seals or timed explosives.
 
If this were Earth, I'd agree. As this is a ninja death world and we've already personally killed 7 people, I feel the 'they're just kids' argument doesn't really hold any weight.

I'm actually pretty sure it does. Especially since it's Jiraya we are talking about. He is old and powerful enough that most ninjas he interacts with probably seem juvenile to him.

EDIT: J probably has a lot of first hand experience on what the current ninja system does to young people and how the ability pull a spine out of a person with bare hands doesn't translate to emotional maturity. With that kind of perspective I would see him being more sad than angry about the whole incident.

We are powerful and likely to become more powerful, but that can go either way. If Jiraiya thinks he can't control us, then us being super competent and likely to get stronger means it's more important he stop us (either by recruiting or killing). I don't see this as a point which supports killing or leashing us, but makes doing one or the other more important.

It does support not killing us since young people are pretty malleable and open to influence. The story would be different if we were 30 year old disgruntled hit ninjas set on our ways. As is though I don't see controlling us being so hard that he would have to kill us.

I mean, we know controlling us would be pretty easy. Just give us useful info, meaningful targets, and a promise to throw shiny things at us from time to time and we will do pretty much what he wants.
 
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I'm actually pretty sure it does. Especially since it's Jiraya we are talking about. He is old and powerful enough that most ninjas he interacts with probably seem juvenile to him.



It does support not killing us since young people are pretty malleable and open to influence. The story would be different if we were 30 year old disgruntled hit ninjas set on our ways. As is though I don't see controlling us being so hard that he would have to kill us.

I mean, we know controlling us would be pretty easy. Just give us useful info, meaningful targets, and a promise to throw shiny things at us from time to time and we will do pretty much what he wants.
In this case, not killing us counts as a shiny thing.
 
Re: presenting seals to J, Hazou should ask -
"On a scale from 'punching a kunai to deflect it' to 'infusing and activating a blank you know to be misdrawn', how bad of an idea is it to show Jiraiya my sealing ideas and PMYF as proof of our continued value as assets?"

The Entite Team, In Unison: "Vetoed."

Mari: "I have a sneaking suspicion he'd kill us just for that."

Kagome: "Also, never speak or think that phrase again within a hundred miles of me or any other human being ever again."

H: "I meant just the safe ones!"

K: "Oh. In that case, about as bad as trying to recreate the blank that made all the talking porcupines."

H: *grumbling* "That was one time..."

Jiraiya could just tell them we were working fir Orochimaru or some other villian
This will be harder with Pandaa present, I think to the point of making it nonviable.

E: A thought. As much as Kei thinks Akane is naive about ninja life, Hazou is actually the one who doesn't really get it, by virtue of us riding around in his skull and us not getting it.
 
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This will be harder with Pandaa present, I think to the point of making it nonviable.

E: A thought. As much as Kei thinks Akane is naive about ninja life, Hazou is actually the one who doesn't really get it, by virtue of us riding around in his skull and us not getting it.

Unfortunately, nobody on our team has yet to question our schizo-competence. Well Mari praised Hazo and though we're chunin squad leader material. Maybe she just see schizo-competence as "kid still has a lot to learn, just not yet ready".
 
As long as we don't show him our SUPER far out there ideas, letting him know of our interest and skill in sealing shouldn't be warrant to murder our faces, and if there was one person who could help us distribute seals it'd be him.
 
As long as we don't show him our SUPER far out there ideas, letting him know of our interest and skill in sealing shouldn't be warrant to murder our faces, and if there was one person who could help us distribute seals it'd be him.
Or it could make it worse. It's not that impossible to consider locking us up for seal factories ala Kagome.
 
While we're waiting for Keiko to get back, we should do some experiments with the seals we already have.
  • Test the basic feasibility of Hidden Heaven by stacking some logs, putting FSB on the top log, then removing the support to see if it stays locked in the air.
  • Test various settings for the Macerator so we know how to use it effectively.
  • Not something to test, but ask Kagome what happens if a storage scroll is activated when there is no valid target for it to store.
  • Ask Kagome if there is a fundamental limit to how large explosive seals can be, or if he just hasn't researched anything bigger than 20m.
 
How many days would we realistically give Keiko before we started studying the summoning scroll to try to bring her back? I feel like it might be more than 9... but would it? Doing something like that would be a huge breach of trust, so knowing that she's coming back makes me prefer not doing it, but how would we react to the rest of the party pushing for it?
Doesn't the scroll go with Keiko when she's reverse-summoned? Though after the last update, that makes me wonder what happens to the scroll if something happens to her. Does it just poof back to the Human Path? Do the pangolins need to get it to an allied summoner to get it back to humans?
 
Doesn't the scroll go with Keiko when she's reverse-summoned? Though after the last update, that makes me wonder what happens to the scroll if something happens to her. Does it just poof back to the Human Path? Do the pangolins need to get it to an allied summoner to get it back to humans?
It does not. It remains on the Human Path and may never be brought to the Pangolin.
 
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