That being said, if we can prepare to extract ourselves from under him we should. Anything might happen in the future, not having any contingencies feels like giving up to me. I mean, imagine if our leash gets passed on to Orochimaru or Danzo? Or maybe Kabuto is our new handler?

It's difficult to answer that question because right now there is no leash other than the threat of placing us on his death list. If we didn't show up for this meeting, what could he do about it? Probably something, but he hasn't even seen fit to threaten us with any specifics.

Anything that would let us not worry about being on his Death List would mean we could also not worry about being on anyone else's Death List and then we wouldn't be..... Marked For Death.

(That was a pretty good title drop opportunity.)
 
That being said, if we can prepare to extract ourselves from under him we should. Anything might happen in the future, not having any contingencies feels like giving up to me. I mean, imagine if our leash gets passed on to Orochimaru or Danzo? Or maybe Kabuto is our new handler?

This right here is what I am most concerned about.

We know that Canon!Jiraiya is a nice guy, but MfD!Jiraiya could be a cold and calculating bastard underneath his jovial exterior.

We have no way of knowing, period.

Appealing to his good nature is all well and good, but we need a back-up plan in case things go poorly.
 
It's difficult to answer that question

What question exactly? I know I put some question marks in the bit you quoted but they were mostly there for the rhetorical effect.

If you mean "What sort of leash could he generate?" then my first thoughts were hostages, divide & conquer, and a proper handler for us.

Ooh! Addictive ninja drugs with high dependency and deadly withdrawal effects is also an option.
 
Hunt us down and kill us. He has a huge spy network and access to some of the most overpowered sensory bloodlines in the world.

Well yes, but other than that. I mean, I'm not trying to dismiss how that would be bad news, but in the context of him doing something in addition to putting us on his list to be hunted down and killed.

What question exactly? I know I put some question marks in the bit you quoted but they were mostly there for the rhetorical effect.

If you mean "What sort of leash could he generate?" then my first thoughts were hostages, divide & conquer, and a proper handler for us.

Ooh! Addictive ninja drugs with high dependency and deadly withdrawal effects is also an option.

The question of how to "prepare to extract ourselves from him". Look at the Oilwhail's response above. It's not the extraction that's even the problem, it's not being killed afterwards.
 
You really want to put a confession in writing, then to pass through an unknown chain of hands? Let's not.

We do have ciphers, which vastly reduce the chance of unknown parties getting access to the data. Not to mention the pangolin and toads are trusted as long as you're only trying to get info Jiraiya. I mean, who the fuck else are they going to leak to?

What you are missing from your calculus is that our team consists of 13-14 year old kids. This leads to two things:

This is a death world. 13-14 year olds can, and occasionally do, become Jounin. We should expect him to treat him like adults with respect to our maturity.


Are there any meaningful precautions we can take against Jiraya's attempts to exert control over us? Here are some things he might try:
  • Split the team apart
  • Take a member of the team as a semi-permanent hostage
  • Insert additional members into the team

I think of that set, splitting the team or taking a hostage are the most likely options. The only way he'll add people to our team is if they can overwhelm us in case of betrayal. Any set of people capable of doing that would have to be equivalent to a low S-class ninja, and would likely be better used elsewhere.

More likely, amongst that set, is the option to split the team apart and integrate individuals into other teams. It does break the synergies we have going, but frankly our team could be useful in immense numbers of other contexts. Inoue is a jounin, with all that entails. Kagome is a good sealing teacher and, with a bit of socializing, would likely reduce the casualty rate among sealing students by a significant margin. Keiko has her summons. Akane is still functionally loyal to Leaf, just a bit stupid, she'll be able to reintegrate. Noburi is a chakra bottle and a water natured medic, he could easily become one of their best combat-capable mednin with time.

If he does do that, Hazou is the wildcard. He's smart as fuck, if inexperienced and lacking knowledge, but his trustworthiness will always be questionable.

The other option, taking a hostage, leaves them with Keiko. She's got the largest disparity between value and capability. She has a summoning contract but is still has solidly chuunin level skill. Fuck if I know what Inoue will do if that is what Jiraiya goes for.

Is there any value in preparing a suicide switch for Hazou or our team members? Maybe tattoo a flawed explosive tag inside our mouth and if suicide really becomes the best option, just infuse it with chakra.

You don't really need anything more than a needle and ink to make a tattoo. Especially if we don't need to be good enough to actually work.

I don't like the idea of a suicide switch at all, but I'd like to point out that even with normal seals it's not just the ink image that matters but the order and type of swirls you make. Tattooing is an entirely different process, and would probably require us to re-research every seal.

This is fine if we only want a suicide switch, since the fail-cthulhu should get us, but it might just do something harmless or non-fatal.
"We want to contribute to fixing this, but it's very clear that we're a chakra-bull in a china shop when it comes to international politics. If you point us the right direction, we'll happily throw our efforts into making the world better."

I like this a lot, and frankly it's a sentiment we should probably try to convey.

Anything might happen in the future, not having any contingencies feels like giving up to me. I mean, imagine if our leash gets passed on to Orochimaru or Danzo? Or maybe Kabuto is our new handler?

Okay, that's scary. I'd rather some other method of suicide, other than a seal in our mouths, but honestly that's a pretty good case for having something.

.
 
The question of how to "prepare to extract ourselves from him". Look at the Oilwhail's response above. It's not the extraction that's even the problem, it's not being killed afterwards.

Oh yeah, if we do end up deciding that we need to extract ourselves it means things have taken a turn to even worse. If we are just doing slightly more risky ninja things than usual we have no reason to not do what J tells us to.

But then again there are scenarios where it would be better to become double (or is it triple already?) missing-nin and risk Jiraya's wrath. I'm just saying that if we want to prepare something to help with the extraction, we need to do it now. I don't have any good ideas beyond a token effort (a meeting place somewhere really far away, codephrases to murder our handler and bolt, a subtle communication protocol etc.) so I'm kinda hoping that someone else has something.

Okay, that's scary. I'd rather some other method of suicide, other than a seal in our mouths, but honestly that's a pretty good case for having something.

We could try to make a copy of Kagome's miniaturized explosion seal, craft in onto a pebble and swallow it. We would have to repeat that process quite often though, depending on the frequency of Hazou's bowel movement.
 
@eaglejarl @Velorien does Hazou know about the 1/32 chance to produce sharingan offspring part of the Iron Nerve? Like, did it occasionally crop up in the Kurosawa clan, or is it something special about him in particular that's OOC knowledge?
It's an inherent feature of the Iron Nerve, but the exact probability isn't known. While it's a major clan secret, Hazō's mother told him despite his young age in case she died while she was still on active duty.

@eaglejarl @Velorien If we level Stealth for the rest of the party during the 10 Days of Worried Panic, any chance that Keiko could play catch up during the 3 Days of Panicked Worry? Assuming of course that there are no surprise ninja attacks or something during that time.
I think she'll have other things on her mind, don't you?

@eaglejarl @Velorien May be a bit early to ask this, but can you tell us the reactions of our teammates upon hearing this news? Or is that a bit premature?
They haven't heard yet, as your plans may modify when/how they find out.

@eaglejarl @Velorien Did Keiko spend any of her time in the summon realm making pacts? Can we propose training for Keiko during her time there? The three days after? How much med knowledge and med ninjutsu could does noburi think he cuould train if he went to the old lady in Yuni over some of the 9 days? What about 2 of the three we have available after?
Keiko didn't make any pacts since she didn't expect to be coming back to the Human Path (and probably wouldn't have had her head in the diplomacy game anyway).

Keiko won't be able to train in her current condition and given the problematic timing. Noburi might be able to get a level in one of the skills if he spends most of the nine days in Yuni (and assuming he's prepared to split from the group). Of course, the Yuni lady is a contact of Jiraiya's.

@eaglejarl @Velorien Not to nag, but did we ever get a consensus on how Akane's Technique Hacking would end up going down post lvl15?
We're still working on that. And in "we" I include the player base, since we're still soliciting suggestions for a balanced set of mechanics. Right now, it seems most likely that past 15, Akane will be buying individual specialisations at an as-yet-undefined XP cost each.

We know some of Jiraiya's specific concerns. He initially found us while investigating Iron, and was probably concerned about our loose canon status.
This may be the most gloriously meta typo I've ever heard.
 
It's an inherent feature of the Iron Nerve, but the exact probability isn't known. While it's a major clan secret, Hazō's mother told him despite his young age in case she died while she was still on active duty.
Fantastic, thank you for the confirmation. Does he have any idea what the probability is? e.g. in the omake, "somehwere between one in a hundred and one in twenty"?
 
Fantastic, thank you for the confirmation. Does he have any idea what the probability is? e.g. in the omake, "somehwere between one in a hundred and one in twenty"?
Through remarkable coincidence, your omake nails the situation perfectly.

Edit: The numbers situation. For the good of all of us, don't take the above as a general statement.
 
It's an inherent feature of the Iron Nerve, but the exact probability isn't known. While it's a major clan secret, Hazō's mother told him despite his young age in case she died while she was still on active duty.

I thought the Sharingan Chance was a new mutation specific to Hazou. Possibly due to how her mom ignored the Official Kurosawa Breeding Program (colloquially known as The List) and shacked up with Hazou's dad.

I mean, if Kurosawas have been at it for ~200 years there must've been a Kurosawa with a Sharingan before. This should be apparent even at young age since the kid wouldn't have IN related developmental difficulties.
 
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Official Kurosawa Breeding Program (The List Version)
I now wholeheartedly believe this to be a thing, regardless of what the QMs say.

I mean, if Kurosawa's have been at it for ~200 years there must've been a Kurosawa with a Sharingan before. This should be apparent even at young age since the kid wouldn't have IN related developmental difficulties.
This is the bit we're still missing, yeah. I think @eaglejarl and @Velorien are still stuck trawling through all the questions from the last big kerfuffle.
 
I mean, if Kurosawa's have been at it for ~200 years there must've been a Kurosawa with a Sharingan before. This should be apparent even at young age since the kid wouldn't have IN related developmental difficulties.

Ninja are good at keeping secrets. As Velorien says, the fact that it can happen is a major clan secret and presumably if a clan member does develop the Sharingan he develops a remarkable fondness for tinted goggles, dark glasses, and other eye-obscuring fashion accessories.
 
Ninja are good at keeping secrets. As Velorien says, the fact that it can happen is a major clan secret and presumably if a clan member does develop the Sharingan he develops a remarkable fondness for tinted goggles, dark glasses, and other eye-obscuring fashion accessories.

Lets hope that's the explanation and that they didn't resort to some other stuff that would probably make people uncomfortable.

Edit in italics.
 
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Okay, that's scary. I'd rather some other method of suicide, other than a seal in our mouths, but honestly that's a pretty good case for having something.

"The most effective means is an exploding tag placed here," she indicated a spot near her solar plexus. "There's little time for pain, and the damage prevents the enemy from dissecting your remains for village secrets. But exploding tags have a time delay, and require activation, so the enemy can stop you. Therefore the most reliable means is to sever the carotid artery with a kunai. If you make a movement like this, you will bypass the thick neck muscles and inflict a deep, broad cut. In the final moments, try to fall so that your body cannot be retrieved before you bleed out.

"If you are captured, don't bother trying to bite out your tongue. Even if you hit the lingual artery, it heals before you can lose enough blood. The exception is if the torturers have destroyed your ability to write. A genin who cannot speak or write is usually too much trouble to keep interrogating, and they will promptly execute you. If your hands have been kept intact, you should instead –"
 
Possible issue. What if Keiko decides to be a Martyr, doesn't tell the team[​1]​, and goes to the meeting site on her own?


[​1]​ Excect for leaving a message somehow[2​]​

[2​]​Maybe summon a messenger 2 days into the journey so our group can't catch up?
 
[X] Action Plan: Chatting with Jiraiya
Goals:
  1. Don't die or get maimed.
  2. Convince Jiraiya that we are still more valuable alive than dead.
  3. Convince Jiriaya that we share his ideals and would like to make the world better.
Methods:
0. Just to make this explicit, we've included details for going through The Talk with J, but please don't feel pressured to get through that, as Keiko's return may well be plenty of material for one update.​
  1. Wait for Kei to return. Push for everyone to remain together, if anyone shows the inclination to leave. We don't want to split up while vulnerable and already down a party member.
    1. The rest of the group can debrief, train some, and continue recovering.
    2. Talk with Mari after she has cooled down some about how to approach talking to Kei - should Hazou just be supportive and let her handle any debriefing?
      1. Emphasize that Hazou doesn't want to say anything that will cause more problems, which he expects to do if left to his own devices
      2. If she is amenable to discussing it, bring up the specific communication style Hazou and Kei have found to be helpful talking to one another, aka Clear Communication no Jutsu
    3. Emphasize to Akane that Hazou values their friendship more than their sensei/student relationship - she doesn't owe him penance for messing up any more than Noburi would
    4. Start decoding that cypher ASAP, it may be valuable. Ideally only store results mentally/in the Iron Nerve, destroy any copies.
    5. Can Kagome remake explody-belts for everyone, including Keiko for when she gets back?
    6. Hazou should figure out one or two of the quieter standardized Macerator configurations, seen here
    7. Try to produce ice with Akane (incorporate as part of capacity training, if that gets voted in)
    8. Test some of the questions in the Kawarimi and PMYF Munchkining and Chakra Mechanics research projects here
  2. When she does, prove we're us using code words before expressing gratitude that she's back safe and asking what happened.
    1. Follow Mari's lead on debriefing, either letting her take point (if we haven't discussed it) or doing what we discussed if we have.
      1. Give her a quick summary of the mission debrief when things have calmed down, making it clear that we just want her to be on the same page as everyone and that we aren't asking her to do analysis for us
      2. Conversational modules to keep on hand, slotted in to the conversation where appropriate in roughly this order (yay Keiko's social suggestions!)
        1. "I'm extremely relieved to see you unhurt. Out of respect for your discomfort with physical affection, I am refraining from hugging you. If you ever disappear like that again, I will not do so next time. What happened?"
        2. "Everything is, if not alright, then at least fixable. And worth fixing."
        3. (Conditional on the subject coming up or Mari OK'ing us to bring it up)
          1. "Noburi and I knew about your attraction to Inoue-Sensei ever since we had our team-building exercise before meeting Jiraiya. Neither of us has ever thought less of you for it. Akane was surprised since she didn't know, but likewise had no negative reaction."
          2. "What you said was hurtful in the moment, but Akane and I believe that you didn't really mean it, and even if you had, we would still want to be your friends. Noburi thinks you probably did, and is correspondingly more upset, but a concerted effort from the group could probably convince him otherwise."
          3. "I think Inoue-Sensei intended to give both you and herself a day to cool down before having this conversation, and has never had any intention of making you leave."
          4. "I know you feel you don't have connections with the rest of the team as meaningful as your feelings for Inoue-sensei. We want to work together to change that, if you're willing, because we all believe our friendships with you are worth continuing to build."
  3. When Kei delivers the message, make the case that we should show up for the meeting (if anyone objects) and that we should execute the rest of this plan, suitable altered from team input.
  4. Suggest executing border crossings to Iron and then Rice using wiki travel protocols, to avoid what we assume will be heavier patrols along the Fire/Rice border in the wake of our escape. Find Three Pines Inn and show up within three days.
    1. Before leaving, make sure everyone is on the same page w.r.t. our intel on Rice
    2. Gather more intel and directions on the way. In henges + disguises, check with locals to get strategic and navigational info.
      1. Military status of the country - any ongoing conflicts, presence or absence of a ninja village, are the borders closed, is it a demilitarized zone?
      2. International relations - alliances, wars, treaties, tensions
      3. What are local ninja known for, in terms of techniques, attitudes, practices?
  5. In the conversation with Jiraiya, present the following, either proactively or in response to J's requests according to Mari's read of the situation.
    1. Start with introducing Kagome and Pandaa.
    2. Describe how avoiding chakra-laced rain in Rain drove us to the Fire side of the border and caused us to run into a Leaf patrol, who we eliminated. Be apologetic, but don't grovel.
      1. Give J the scrolls with the bodies, because it's the right thing to do - their families deserve closure and Leaf doesn't need to fret about foreign powers dissecting their nin.
    3. Follow what the team decides w.r.t talking about the village hidden in the mountain, whether being open to gain goodwill or a variation of "The scroll had a guardian who asked for a year's secrecy about them on our part. We all know you can make us give you the info, so we will if you ask, but doing so would piss the guardian off and mean we've broken our word. We think goodwill from this guardian could be very useful to all of us, including you and Leaf, if we waited for the year to be up before disclosing anything, and hope that you see the value of assets who keep their promises". If we do talk about it, try to include:
      1. Comment on how shinobi and non-shinobi alike are respected in the VHitM. Tell him truthfully that there was a part of us that wanted to stay there for this reason but that we couldn't take their insular culture.
      2. Describe the specifics of what we promised Takahashi (we won't go back for a year, he reacted very strongly against the mention of our powerful boss)
      3. We are an asset in dealing with the village as they emerge to the world. The faction that supported us is the expansionist one, Kei is the messiah of their religion (potential leverage against the traditionalists), Mari can provide some social/political/psych analysis of the village leaders, Noburi their medical knowledge, Mari/Hazou/Akane their hand-to-hand capabilities, Kagome their sealing.
      4. Finish by complimenting Keiko for being accepting as a summoner without getting too bogged down in details and that we convinced the VHitM to let us take the scroll voluntarily.
    4. Talk about not having direction after letting him know we retrieved the scroll and so we decided to take on a mission to get experience and maybe make some contacts
      1. Mention the Hydra foundation we ran into while looking for missions, which seems like an Orochimaru thing given the 8-headed snake symbolism and medical/psychological experimentation
      2. The Hot Springs mission sounded like a simple information retrieval which we figured could be done without killing anyone.
    5. Run through the Hot Springs mission similarly to how we did our debriefing, filling in more details where J asks. Do it like we're reporting to a superior officer.
      1. We see now that we were too focused on completing the mission and did not keep other considerations in mind, and should have abandoned the mission or at least waited for a better opportunity rather than risk a fight with Joutaro.
        1. The team may not all be in agreement about what we should have done, so Hazou will defer to the other characters if they have strong feelings about where we made mistakes.
      2. We used his code words to try and make sure we were not acting against one of his agents
      3. We didn't want to get anyone killed, and really did try to talk Joutarou down
      4. We are more than happy to make reparations in terms of solving crises and providing compensation to the families of those killed, including the civilians
      5. "We want to contribute to fixing this, but it's very clear that we're a chakra-bull in a china shop when it comes to international politics. If you point us the right direction, we'll happily throw our efforts into making this situation - and the world generally - better."
  6. Face his response without fear.
  1. Before arriving:
    1. If there is time, suggest preparing an escape route as we did in Hot Springs.
    2. Explain the situation to Pandaa ahead of time as an information dead-man's switch in case we get killed on the way, as well as to make sure he is as reserved and respectful as possible during the meeting ("Jiraiya is the human equivalent of Pantsaa, or near enough.")
    3. Discuss with the adults whether / how much of Hazou's completed or potential sealing ideas to reveal as incentive to not kill the team. (Suggestion list here, along with examples of the macerator and PMYF)
    4. Team discussion, including Kei, of how to approach the VHitMo issue - modify the conversation approach accordingly. What we actually promised to Takahashi appears to have been to stay away for a year and to (not send J to the village? Not deliberately get J involved? unclear from the scene). Hazou suggests hewing fairly strictly to what we promised and trying to leverage any info released into a position as diplomatic liaisons, official or not.
  2. Mari takes point whenever feasible.
  3. Hand over info on our employer and what we have of the message, along with whatever decryption we've managed to do and an offer to do more (if Kagome is willing)
  4. If J tries to kill us, fight by any means necessary. Storing an explosive tag, for instance.
  5. Everyone shows up, Kagome included.
  6. Bring Pandaa to the meeting, with the ostensible reason that we want Jiraiya to see our success / "He's part of the team!" and the understood-by-everyone purpose that he might be more reluctant to squash us if summon politics are involved.
    1. Take precautions to avoid him being spotted by other people, e.g. summon him in a secluded area to explain the plan, have him hide in a bag or backpack if that's not horribly insulting, or only summon him when we're in the room with J
  7. Play the Sharingan restoration card as a last resort iff to Hazou's knowledge Sharingan-using Kurosawas pass the eyes to their kids

Provisionally,
[X] Training Hazou: Stealthier-Capacity Sealing
Wits 5 [10]
Capacity 6 [22]
Capacity 7 [36]
Capacity 8 [52]
Capacity 9 [70]
Intelligence 13 [96]
Sealing 13 [109]
Stealth 9 [118]
Stealth 10 [128]
Stealth 11 [139]
Save 11 XP

[X] Training Akane: Higher Capacity Roundup
Capacity 6 [12]
Capacity 7 [26]
Capacity 8 [42]
Capacity 9 [60]
Stealth 12 [72]
Diplomacy 6 [78]
MechApt 14 [92]
Awareness 10 [94]
Save 10 XP

[X] Training Noburi: Sneaking out of Control
Control 10 [20]
Stealth 10 [30]
Stealth 11 [41]
Stealth 12 [53]
Save 72.5 XP
 
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Don't forget, Keiko would have no way of knowing if the party had been found and TPK'D by a passing Leaf-nin. The first she'd hear is Jiraiya's message. We very much do not have a free 10 days. To me, making sure we're hiding well is priority 1. If we can research seals without attracting attention, great. If not, then too bad. We could make more seals though (PMYF came in handy and we've never actually used the Macerator seal).

Oh, good point. I hadn't thought of this, but now that you've reminded me I'll make a point of starting my update by rolling to see if you guys were found before Keiko returned. Thanks for the reminder, it's much more realistic this way!
 
Was doing another round of brainstorming for Action Plan: Talking to Jaraiya (which I've just now realized is misspelled) and it became extensive enough that I decided to call it its own thing. Please feel free to steal whatever points you think are useful and disregard the rest, @Briefvoice.

I notice you took out any mention of our disgust with Scorch Squads. Wouldn't that help with goal "Convince Jiriaya that we share his ideals and would like to make the world better."?
 
  1. Play the Sharingan restoration card as a last resort.

This is a double-edged sword. If the word gets out that Mist has a clan with Sharingan potential it will lead to big problems for J's world peace plans and might even doom the whole Kurosawa clan (mom included). If we bring it up we have to be 100% absolutely sure that J is the only one listening in.

Bring Pandaa to the meeting, with the ostensible purpose that we want Jiraiya to see our success and the understood-by-everyone purpose that he might be more reluctant to squash us if summon politics are involved.

Not really sure about bringing Pandaa into this thing. The little guy is adorable, but he also has the tendency to say about the most inappropriate thing possible. If Jiraya has decided to squash us, having Pandaa around won't make a difference really.
 
This is a double-edged sword. If the word gets out that Mist has a clan with Sharingan potential it will lead to big problems for J's world peace plans and might even doom the whole Kurosawa clan (mom included). If we bring it up we have to be 100% absolutely sure that J is the only one listening in.

In that case, let's not bring it up at all. It's not worth dooming the clan to save Hazou's life.

Not really sure about bringing Pandaa into this thing. The little guy is adorable, but he also has the tendency to say about the most inappropriate thing possible. If Jiraya has decided to squash us, having Pandaa around won't make a difference really.

I give good odds that Jiraiya is going to make his decision after hearing what we have to say, in which case anything could make a difference. If nothing else, I consider Pandaa part of the team. He should be here for this.
 
I notice you took out any mention of our disgust with Scorch Squads. Wouldn't that help with goal "Convince Jiriaya that we share his ideals and would like to make the world better."?
I was worried about the issue of how to bring that up without bringing up the "...and then we decided to lowkey take over the world" resolution, and also about avoiding bringing up the fact that we know ultra-classified military secrets.

Alternatively, Mari mentioned to Keiko that Kagome may simply be wrong about scorch squads. I would hate to tell Jiraiya we ended up killing a bunch of people based on a ghost story.

Possible issue. What if Keiko decides to be a Martyr, doesn't tell the team[​1]​, and goes to the meeting site on her own?


[​1]​ Excect for leaving a message somehow[2​]​

[2​]​Maybe summon a messenger 2 days into the journey so our group can't catch up?
Keiko will return to the exact spot she left from, so as long as we don't leave and keep watches she shouldn't be able to slip past us.

he also has the tendency to say about the most inappropriate thing possible.
This is a concern, but I expect the benefit of actually seeing a pangolin will have more impact on J's decision than us telling him about it and him thinking abstractly about how the clan politics will be affected.
 
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