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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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TarzanNn said:
Yeah. She's probably not interested in politics because it's too easy for her. Jiraiya was probably the last person who could say "no" to her.
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Exactly. She is pure deterrence and barely needs to do anything. We need firepower. Somebody who is both personally and ideologically sympathetic to our side in this fight with the sheer, mountainous clout and public relations to make even a kage pause before crossing them.
 
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Lailoken said:
Exactly. She is pure deterrence and barely needs to do anything. We need firepower. Somebody who is both personally and ideologically sympathetic to our side in this fight with the sheer, mountainous clout and public relations to make even a kage pause before crossing them.
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Too bad the voting is closed. Not that it would matter - no one can read what we type)
 
redzonejoe said:
You are principal of school. Teacher has personal disagreement with another teacher. There's nothing you can officially do, each has a right to their beliefs. Even if you personally agree with one of them, considering your position you maintain a position of neutrality for the sake of promoting a healthy work environment.

Then one teacher shows up in private and says "by the way, I'm gonna key his car, put a whoopi cushion on his chair so it sounds like he farted in front of his students haha. Oh, and also replace the instructional video he was gonna show in class with a different clip of him cheating on his wife for everybody to see so he gets fired and divorced. No worries though, I'll let his students sit in on my classes so the school won't be affected at all! Just thought it would be polite to let you know so you can handle the mess better."

Yeah that'll go down well for sure. Whether it's the guy you agree with or not, whether you like the guy or not, with this kinda escalation you're gonna be obligated to act. And not to help cover things up.
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Ultimately I find these post-facto comparisons to contrived real world scenarios unconvincing for a variety of reasons, and don't think they should be treated as anything stronger than back-of-the-envelope comparisons that ultimately ignore the context of the setting and of that given in the story.
 
I know that's it's sort of a cop-out, but we could do a time skip of [whatever length of time], jumping straight to the action while doing [x amount of things] offscreen, during the timeskip itself.
 
Strictly speaking, we don't *need* to talk to Asuma about this right now. We just need to be doubly sure it doesn't blow up in our faces. And Keiko and Ami both seem to agree with that sentiment, so we're not in disagreement. It's not like we need to completely invert the Hagoromo in 10 days, we just need to have them officiate Noburi and Yuno's wedding. The rest can be a long-term project.

Again, our lose condition is this spilling out of the shadows and affecting surface-level clan politics in a negative way. We should perhaps put more effort into identifying failure modes that could cause this and planning against them.

It might be that we'll have to keep up the appearance of reaching a compromise - so publicly, Hazou would apologize for the "deception" and Lord Hagoromo would in turn apologize for his overreaction. That might be a harder sell for Keiko, but I think she could stomach it if it were clear that the "invert" plan was proceeding in the background.
 
MMKII said:
Ultimately I find these post-facto comparisons to contrived real world scenarios unconvincing for a variety of reasons, and don't think they should be treated as anything stronger than back-of-the-envelope comparisons that ultimately ignore the context of the setting and of that given in the story.
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Somebody had trouble understanding how approaching Asuma might be a bad thing. Hopefully, that person now understands how things could be interpreted in a poor light so as to have that action backfire on us despite our best intent.

Obviously, the comparison is not 100% accurate. But if it helped that one person understand Asuma's perspective on our conflict, then it did it's job. If you've a better way to explain things, or disagree with even the mere possibility I've outlined, I'd love to hear it.
 
redzonejoe said:
Somebody had trouble understanding how approaching Asuma might be a bad thing. Hopefully, that person now understands how things could be interpreted in a poor light so as to have that action backfire on us despite our best intent.
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Sure, that's fine.
 
Roomba said:
Strictly speaking, we don't *need* to talk to Asuma about this right now. We just need to be doubly sure it doesn't blow up in our faces. And Keiko and Ami both seem to agree with that sentiment, so we're not in disagreement. It's not like we need to completely invert the Hagoromo in 10 days, we just need to have them officiate Noburi and Yuno's wedding. The rest can be a long-term project.

Again, our lose condition is this spilling out of the shadows and affecting surface-level clan politics in a negative way. We should perhaps put more effort into identifying failure modes that could cause this and planning against them.

It might be that we'll have to keep up the appearance of reaching a compromise - so publicly, Hazou would apologize for the "deception" and Lord Hagoromo would in turn apologize for his overreaction. That might be a harder sell for Keiko, but I think she could stomach it if it were clear that the "invert" plan was proceeding in the background.
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I prefer eversion. Hence, Tsunade.
 
Y'know, I had discounted it at first, but the more I think about it the more having Noburi and Yuno (not Hazou!) appeal directly to Naruto with, "dude, we need help. Please help" might be worthwhile.

He is the naturally compassionate son of an outsider immigrant demon-lunchbox become said lunchbox raised as an orphan by Jiraiya, the Third, and Tsunade. If there is anybody who would be a sucker for a redemptive story of true love persevering against adversity, it's him.

Plus, Ami is bound to have wrapped him around her finger by now.
 
Lailoken said:
Y'know, I had discounted it at first, but the more I think about it the more having Noburi and Yuno (not Hazou!) appeal directly to Naruto with, "dude, we need help. Please help" might be worthwhile.

He is the naturally compassionate son of an outsider immigrant demon-lunchbox become said lunchbox raised as an orphan by Jiraiya, the Third, and Tsunade. If there is anybody who would be a sucker for a redemptive story of true love persevering against adversity, it's him.

Plus, Ami is bound to have wrapped him around her finger by now.
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What exactly do you want him to do?
 
eaglejarl said:
What exactly do you want him to do?
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Dunno, but given his clout even just threatening to publicly denounce the Hagoromo might have an effect. Heck, he's been depicted as practically a living saint. If he, Tsunade, and Asuma all officiated at the wedding of Sannin Jiraiya Hokage's chosen son and inheritory Toad Sage as confirmed and blessed by the Third there seems as if there would be a pretty good chance of a pretty large fraction of the population interpreting it as at least as legitimate as a Hagoromo ceremony, which is itself a threatening precedent to their petty monopoly.
 
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[?] Proto Plan: Free Use Attack Plans
Words: indeterminate
  • Mari: Begin Whisper Campaign, fan flames of concern and worry about the Hag into fear and hate
    • Clans have to be wondering "are we next," so let's take advantage of that.
  • Papermill:
    • See if Mari can find the schedule of the ninja who work there.
    • Strike at night, if no Hyuuga are on guard. Cast all jutsu from a safe distance. Use seals as needed.
      • Using a stealthy Toad summon (or Pangolin, if Noburi doesn't have access to one), contaminate at least half of the dye vats using toad-oil (bought from toads for this purpose, taking their advice on what would contaminate the dyes the best)
      • Sabotage two of the more specialized equipment.
      • Using Pangolins (or tunneling jutsu, plus rebreathers from the Iron Mine update), substantially weaken the foundations of a few of the older-looking buildings
  • Blacksmith
    • Strike at night, summon from a safe distance
      • Summon toads to mix their oil into quench-oil, retreat to maximum range of macerator, trigger macerator to ignite the oil.
        • If Noburi doesn't have access to a stealth-toad, buy the requisite oil from the toads beforehand, and sneak it in there with a stealth-pangolin.
    • Working together with Keiko, Mari, Ami, etc, write a letter the following day offering him a grant to get him back on his feet, on condition that we are his sole customer going forward. Ensure that the details of the grant are favorable and in line with Uplift philosophy, coordinating as necessary to make the offer as innocent and appealing as possible.
  • Goketsu
    • If it doesn't make the Goketsu Clan seem unreliable or liars to the wider Leaf, use as much administrative red tape and bureaucratic back bending to indefinitely delay the Goketsu monthly payments to the Hagoromo.
      • Act innocent if the Hag confront us directly.
      • Map out variations of the expected Hag response with Mari, Keiko, and Ami, and encode appropriate conversational responses via Iron Nerve, a la the Minami Trade Network update.
 
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redzonejoe said:
Weren't we not voting for this next update? Or did somebody reverse that decision?
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Once we figure out where the line between "Asuma's mildly annoyed, but ultimately indifferent" and "Asuma's annoyed and must intervene" we can figure out what to do in detail. Right now, I'm just spitballing possible ways to attack the Hagoromo's economic/political reserves. Albeit, it mostly boils down to "use summons to follow through on suggestions presented in earlier chapters."

Edit: edited the "title" of the previous post to reflect this
 
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Shadowwarp said:
Like what?
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maybe asuma prefers you to tell him your plans and defy him openly, as opposed to defying him secretly
or if asuma thinks its a bad idea that its a good idea to listen to him. and do whatever he suggests instead
or that economically sabotaging ninja clans isn't a big deal. so that asuma prob won't stop us

TarzanNn said:
Hags may be dumb bigots, but the official stand they took is pretty reasonable: they don't claim that we are bad because we believe homosexual relations are okay; they only say that we withhold info about Keiko and Shikamaru, that were important to Hags (which we did)
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nah this is a blatant power play. hazou had nothing to do with the marriage. if they wanted a semblance of reasonableness they'd ask keiko to apologize, or ask hazou to apologize about jiraiya not telling them
 
I think that there are four (basic) possibilities...

1. Asuma doesn't care about the Goketsu-Hag situation, and doesn't need to do anything about it as the Hokage.
2. Asuma doesn't care about the Goketsu-Hag situation, but must take action in his role as the Hokage.
3. Asuma does care about the Goketsu-Hag situation, and must take action in his role as the Hokage.
4. Asuma does care about the Goketsu-Hag situation, but doesn't need to do anything about it as the Hokage.

Given that Asuma wasn't very sympathetic towards Keiko's plight during the Mistress Vote update, I don't think that Asuma has any particular fervor for equal rights --this falls in line with Asuma's words regarding the clanless when Hazou and Ebisu brought him the results of their experiment. We also know that any Hokage --even one as liberal/tolerant as the Fourth reportedly was --would be Very Upset at one clan annihilating another clan without permission. While this calls into question the Hyuuga's actions towards the Minami, I think that we can safely say that Asuma has a vested interest in keeping Leaf stable and retaining as much military might as possible.

However, I think it's important to recognize that the Hagormo have, indeed, overstepped. They're the religious pillars of Leaf and have sole authority over religious matters. They've also just announced to the world that they're not afraid of using that "divine authority" for political purposes. This has to have all the other clans shitting bricks and planning to either appease or undermine the Hag. And Asuma, raised by the Third Hokage and likely a trained successor, would see this instability and tension that the Hag have brought upon the Leaf. Furthermore, Asuma should realize that this declaration (that non-traditional people are "corrosive" to the WoF by merely existing) will directly lead to an increase in Leaf citizens (civilian and ninja alike) who will eventually stop believing in the WoF because of how it now abuses/treats them (like a lover who, upon being hurt too much, ceases to love their partner and moves on). This weakened nationalism/uniting philosophy is a security flaw, and a dangerous one at that.

And the Goketsu aren't trying to raze the Hags to the ground, we're trying to reshape their ideology into something more patriotic, something more accepting (i.e. "everyone can serve, everyone can help the WoF, regardless of the way you were born"). In the EN, it feels like there's only one solution for a clan that's becoming as blatantly radicalized as the Hag have been: the Itachi Treatment. But we're offering a different way. We're offering a way that makes them useful, that keeps the Hag in the social niche that they currently occupy. We're just providing an alignment, bringing a discordant note in line with the larger symphony --remember, the "liberal" faction of the Hag are the ones who realize that their clan's doctrines are out of sync with "modern" Leaf ethics/culture/morality.

I could see Asuma being skeptical (like Uplift, this idea sounds childishly optimistic) but also desperate enough (maintain stability, maximize military power) that he'd be willing to take that chance.

Edit: Or maybe he's too overworked and tired to care about measuring contests and will decide to smack both clans around for infighting during such a vulnerable time in Leaf's history.
 
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Again, Hinata knows what is happening, knows the probable responses, and is inevitably behind the timing of Asuma's ultimatum.


Velorien said:
Until now, I have only ever heard that word in the context of the eponymous game. The implications of its use by someone planning to radically transform the world are... unnerving.
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Eh, call it an aesthetic (anesthetic? :p) preference.
 
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RandomOTP said:
However, I think it's important to recognize that the Hagormo have, indeed, overstepped. They're the religious pillars of Leaf and have sole authority over religious matters. They've also just announced to the world that they're not afraid of using that "divine authority" for political purposes. This has to have all the other clans shitting bricks and planning to either appease or undermine the Hag.
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Mm, maybe. That's not my read.

I think the Hagoromo are able to do what they're doing here only because, simultaneously, 1) the Gouketsu is the most politically weak voting clan, and 2) we're in a situation in which we're in high demand for the service they provide, and 3) the Hagoromo have an excellent excuse to deny us that service, and 4) (possible) the Hyuuga are propping them up. Had we not needed as much legitimacy as possible, we would've just went without the ceremony, their request for apology ignored; had they needed to invent the excuse ex nihilo, their request would've been casually rebuffed as unwarranted abuse of authority; had we had more political clout, we would've been able to simply overpower them.

The Hagoromo are weak. The Hyuuga owned them with a measly 2kk/month debt. They are not wealthy, they have no S-rankers, their bloodline is so irrelevant we don't know what it even is. Religious monopoly might well be their sole claim to power, and it's like control over flavour text. If they didn't use their divine authority for political purposes against anyone important before — and they didn't, or they would've been more powerful — it's because if they tried it, they've would've been crushed.

That won't change if they win this. They're not setting a precedent. No other clan is concerned the Hagoromo might do it to them.
 
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