Hinata, like us, has limited resources to use in a mutable political landscape. This, coupled with the fact that Asuma has his own agency that Hinata cannot fundamentally change, means that it's still a good idea to do so.
It doesn't matter how well you know what you need to do when you don't have enough power to actually do everything.
Also, Tsunade is not willing to destroy city block for a wedding that isn't Jiraiya's, nor willing to deal with politics for our sake....now, if we made a long-term economic partnership with her charity, the situation could change.

Hinata has vastly more resources and the first-mover advantage. She initiated this conflict. She would not have done so if she were not confident. She almost certainly arranged for Asuma's ultimatum. The decision arrived simultaneously with the Hag's declaration and her letter. She will have seen this coming and prepared for it.

Now, the Gouketsu are Jiraiya's chosen scions. Tsunade has stated that she wouldn't leave the clan out to hang alone even if it hadn't been Jiraiya's dying request. She has taken both Akane and Noburi under her wing as students. We can reasonably expect to have more knowledge of her idiosyncrasies than the Hyuuga. She came on to Mari in a homosexual manner. She notoriously hates official formalities and doctrine of exactly the sort at play here which the Hyuuga, the Hagoromo, and this entire situation epitomize. Asuma needs to keep the great clans, the largest remaining being the Hyuuga, happy, but has exactly two S-Class at his call, and Orochimaru will probably only bother in direct defense of the village at the expense of immense collateral damage. Why are we not at least talking to Tsunade before confronting somebody Hinata has clearly already turned?
 
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Hinata has vastly more resources and the first-mover advantage. She initiated this conflict. She would not have done so if she were not confident. She almost certainly arranged for Asuma's ultimatum. The decision arrived simultaneously with the Hag's declaration and her letter. She will have seen this coming and prepared for it.

This is a really interesting point. My first instinct is to say that there's no way Hinata could've planned this out - just on a basic level, she's pretty young and a new clan head, and doesn't have influence over Asuma. On the other hand, we're also young and new and have been pretty successful, as has Shikamaru and Ino, and the timing was definitely suspicious.

However, I think Hinata would avoid falling into the sunk cost fallacy, and as it became apparent that Yuno prefers Noburi, I don't think forcing Yuno into an unhappy marriage and making further enemies of the Goketsu (especially as even after Hiashi we've been making positive overtures to Neji) would be worth the marginal benefit they can get from Isan.

I also think it's just as important that we don't overestimate our opponents as it is we don't underestimate them, though. In a prediction based game that this is an analogue to, even if you recognize that your moves are obvious, sometimes you can't afford not to take them. In this case we have to talk to Asuma - we're on thin ice as far as treason goes. Maybe Hinata hasn't seen this far ahead. Maybe this isn't a big plan by her and just a move of opportunity. And Asuma is his own independent agent too.

And if the Hagoromo are truly as radical about tradition and purity as they appear to be, they wouldn't do this for a fake reason. They actually truly believe what they are saying, and Hinata just took advantage of it. Realistically, this is a win-win for her. Either we fail to overcome the Hagoromo and Yuno marries Neji, with our ire falling on the Hagoromo and Hinata saying she tried to help us with the note but the Hyuuga elders stopped her, or we succeed and are grateful that she didn't interfere (and potentially the Hagoromo are impeding her efforts at reforms? We don't know at this point).

And even past that, this will give us OOC a first-hand look at external reactions and give us a gauge on what we need to do next. If anything, this is a necessary intermediate step.
 
Adhoc vote count started by eaglejarl on Oct 3, 2020 at 4:18 PM, finished with 75 posts and 15 votes.
Voting is closed
 
And if the Hagoromo are truly as radical about tradition and purity as they appear to be, they wouldn't do this for a fake reason. They actually truly believe what they are saying, and Hinata just took advantage of it. Realistically, this is a win-win for her. Either we fail to overcome the Hagoromo and Yuno marries Neji, with our ire falling on the Hagoromo and Hinata saying she tried to help us with the note but the Hyuuga elders stopped her, or we succeed and are grateful that she didn't interfere (and potentially the Hagoromo are impeding her efforts at reforms? We don't know at this point).

And even past that, this will give us OOC a first-hand look at external reactions and give us a gauge on what we need to do next. If anything, this is a necessary intermediate step.
Iirc, weren't the Hagoromo the clan that was being blackmailed by the Hyuga with debt before we bought it out? It's possible that hurting the Hagoromo is a positive end in and of itself for the Hyuga, as I doubt there's much love lost between the two clans after that.

It's also possible that Hinata's move once we start wrecking the Hagoromo is to use the Hagoromo's weakness to put them back under control of the Hyuga. That's probably how it would be a win-win for Hinata.
 
I've been out of the loop recently, so bear with me if this is something already taken into account, but it occurs to me that Asuma will be watching how we deal with the Hagoromo situation very carefully - as a test of whether we've learned anything from our treason. As such, it's probably better to err on the side of subtlety. Like Keiko said in this update, make sure whatever we do does not negatively impact the stability of Leaf.
 
I've been out of the loop recently, so bear with me if this is something already taken into account, but it occurs to me that Asuma will be watching how we deal with the Hagoromo situation very carefully - as a test of whether we've learned anything from our treason. As such, it's probably better to err on the side of subtlety. Like Keiko said in this update, make sure whatever we do does not negatively impact the stability of Leaf.
*we're all gonna dieeeeeeee'ing in Kagome*
 
I've been out of the loop recently, so bear with me if this is something already taken into account, but it occurs to me that Asuma will be watching how we deal with the Hagoromo situation very carefully - as a test of whether we've learned anything from our treason. As such, it's probably better to err on the side of subtlety. Like Keiko said in this update, make sure whatever we do does not negatively impact the stability of Leaf.
*we're all gonna dieeeeeeee'ing in Kagome*
I mean. We're taking care to retain the Hag as a whole so that they can continue to be the cog in Leaf's machine. Last chapter even had Keiko suggesting this, just changing the overarching tone of their message. Considering the Hyuuga's near-constant war to eradicate the Minami, I'd say that a war of economic/political subversion/persuasion would be looked upon as far more favorable.
 
I mean. We're taking care to retain the Hag as a whole so that they can continue to be the cog in Leaf's machine. Last chapter even had Keiko suggesting this, just changing the overarching tone of their message. Considering the Hyuuga's near-constant war to eradicate the Minami, I'd say that a war of economic/political subversion/persuasion would be looked upon as far more favorable.
*continues to scream in paranoia*
 
I've been out of the loop recently, so bear with me if this is something already taken into account, but it occurs to me that Asuma will be watching how we deal with the Hagoromo situation very carefully - as a test of whether we've learned anything from our treason. As such, it's probably better to err on the side of subtlety. Like Keiko said in this update, make sure whatever we do does not negatively impact the stability of Leaf.

@Roomba it will comfort you to know that the pending plan for the next update is "Have a meeting on how to approach this with Asuma, go dump a pile of good news in his lap, and then talk to him about this situation."
 
@Roomba it will comfort you to know that the pending plan for the next update is "Have a meeting on how to approach this with Asuma, go dump a pile of good news in his lap, and then talk to him about this situation."
I would like to request that this plan also includes us offering a bunch of ideas that we gave Jiraiya, but he dismissed for reasons that may not necessarily be relevant any more. I'll go diving, if that's the issue.

Edit: I also recognize that it may not necessarily fit with the tone of the meeting and might not happen.
 
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I would like to request that this plan also includes us offering a bunch of ideas that we gave Jiraiya, but he dismissed for reasons that may not necessarily be relevant any more. I'll go diving, if that's the issue.
*checks date and time*

Votings closed for suresies unless I missed something.
 
*checks date and time*

Votings closed for suresies unless I missed something.
Ooh, I thought you meant the plan after that one. I thought that, to the utter sorrow of the QMs, there was going to be yet another planning/talking plan.

Edit: let's be honest, we'll plan and optimize so much that the QMs will either force a thing, or say that we've sufficiently planned ahead enough that we can just say "enable Hag Plan."
 
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Chapter 378: One Thought

"Speaking of," Ami said, "ninety seconds before we reach the first safety margin for the secondary seals. I suggest we get moving before we find out whether love really gives you wings." She reached towards the nearest of the seals, clearly planning to terminate it in a controlled way.

An idle thought tripped through Hazō's mind, born of the thoroughly-chewed thread of worry that he'd been lugging around ever since all this began. It unpacked itself into an idea and the idea pushed its way to the front of the line of Things I Need to Consider.

He considered it and decided that yes, this was something that should be at the front of the line. It was important, which meant that he needed to get it right, which meant he needed to run it by his most important advisors. Mari was back at the estate, but it wouldn't hurt to lay it out now with Keiko and Ami now and then rerun everything again when they caught up with the Gōketsu matriarch. 'More practice, more success', Mom always said.

The motto made him smile. He could tell that he had internalized her lesson, because he had started optimizing the way he presented ideas to be optimized by his friends and family members whose cheating bloodline cheatiness allowed them to cheat their way to unfair levels of optimization. Well, Hazō didn't need that. He could do a decently good job on his own. Not as good as people who literally had magic brains, but still pretty good. In less than the blink of an eye—and, more importantly, in complete silence—he had had a complex conversation inside his own head.

Asuma will be pissed if he catches us in a clan war, said the idle thought.

We should go to him, lay out everything that's happening, and make sure this is all okay, said Don't Get Killboxed Hazō, the one who amused himself by wondering what would happen if he asked T&I to keep a cell reserved for the next time he was in. Perhaps with turn-down service?

That's an explosive tag with an oversensitive timer, mused Thoughtful Hazō. We're already on shaky ground with him, so we'll want to manage the presentation carefully. Point out that the Hagoromo are violating social norms and setting political precedents that are going to be harmful to Leaf as a whole. Can't have religious power being used for political gain.

Oooh! We could bring lists!
said Whimsical List-Maker Hazō. And charts! And pictures! Maybe even graphs! We could do a cost-benefit analysis for how much better things would be for Leaf if the Hagoromo were run by the cheating optimization abilities of the Nara and aligned with the Uplift goals of the Gōketsu.

Mari-sensei did used to say that listening was the secret to controlling someone,
Thoughtful Hazō mused further. Understand what they want, give it to them, and they're yours. Asuma wants Leaf to prosper because he's a good man, and he wants respect and veneration because he's a human. Bringing this to him and asking his suggestions would be a good plan.

'Hazō! How could you say such a thing?!'
shrieked Mental Model of Keiko. 'You promised you would help me annihilate the Hagoromo! If you outright tell the Hokage he will never allow us to proceed!'

'You have made my Keiko sad,'
growled Poorly Understood Intuitions About Ami. 'Prepare to die!'

'You have shamed your blood, and endangered the plans of the Nara,'
grumbled Mental Model of Shikamaru, adding a few iterations of 'troublesome' just for flavor. 'I shall now do weird things with my hands and try to decide if I should mock you for foolishness or actually declare you an enemy of the clan who must be destroyed with all the power of the Wood Element that we definitely have.'

'Why not both, beloved husband?'

'An excellent point, beloved wife. Yes, we shall mock him and then tell Mari embarrassing stories about him so that she ruffles his hair non-stop for months. And then destroy him with all the power of the Wood Element that we definitely have.'

Ok, stop,
said Sensible Hazō. Stop being drama queens, all of you. I have every intention of hurting the Hagoromo to the absolutely greatest extent that can be managed without actually damaging Leaf. I also have every intention of keeping the Gōketsu alive and undamaged as much as possible, and that means making sure we toe the line where Asuma is concerned. All I want to know is how do we factor him in?

'Oh,'
said Poorly Understood Intuitions About Ami, in chorus with Mental Models of Keiko and Shikamaru. 'That's a much more sensible question. Why didn't you lead with that one?'

"Actually," Hazō said, raising a hand to halt Ami before she could pre-emptively deactivate the Air Dome seals. "I had one thought that I wanted to run by you guys."





Voting is closed. @Velorien may open it if he wishes, but I think the current plan is that he's going to write the 'Hazō, Keiko, and Ami discuss how to handle Asuma' part of the conversation.

Author's Note: This plan was well considered and well written, but it boiled down to "Ask Asuma for permission to destroy the Hagoromo." I read it multiple times and tried on different interpretations but couldn't really get past that point. Yes, dealing with Asuma is critical and you're smart to be considering it, but if I had written Hazō laying out this plan as written to Keiko, etc, they would have felt that he was doing a complete 180 from the 'bring the paaaainnnn!!' train that he's been on for the last seven chapters and was now chickening out. It would have deeply hurt Keiko and caused Hazō a lot of grief. After discussion with @Velorien I decided to basically call a mulligan. No XP, no harm done. He will have a conversation that reflects the spirit of the plan but doesn't follow its letter.
 
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Author's Note: This plan was well considered and well written, but it boiled down to "Ask Asuma for permission to destroy the Hagoromo." I read it multiple times and tried on different interpretations but couldn't really get past that point
Thank you oh benevolent author, for giving us this Mulligan and not forcing Shikimaru to use his clans wood element to destroy us.

It's nice to see Hazou growing as a person, even if the thread is the same as they've always been.
 
Man Ninja socials is so confusing. I don't see what's so bad about the plan
You are principal of school. Teacher has personal disagreement with another teacher. There's nothing you can officially do, each has a right to their beliefs. Even if you personally agree with one of them, considering your position you maintain a position of neutrality for the sake of promoting a healthy work environment.

Then one teacher shows up in private and says "by the way, I'm gonna key his car, put a whoopi cushion on his chair so it sounds like he farted in front of his students haha. Oh, and also replace the instructional video he was gonna show in class with a different clip of him cheating on his wife for everybody to see so he gets fired and divorced. No worries though, I'll let his students sit in on my classes so the school won't be affected at all! Just thought it would be polite to let you know so you can handle the mess better."

Yeah that'll go down well for sure. Whether it's the guy you agree with or not, whether you like the guy or not, with this kinda escalation you're gonna be obligated to act. And not to help cover things up.
 
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That is one interpretation, but there are others. I would hope Keiko gives Hazou the benefit of the doubt by now. And not assume proposing asking Asuma for permission is malice or betrayal.
 
Hags may be dumb bigots, but the official stand they took is pretty reasonable: they don't claim that we are bad because we believe homosexual relations are okay; they only say that we withhold info about Keiko and Shikamaru, that were important to Hags (which we did). Their punishment for us is somewhat blown out of proportion, but what they want is only an apology.

I am not saying that we should give it. I'm just saying that for Asums it would be easier to go full McGonagall on us with "then you should loose" and force us to apologise. The only thing hurt in this case is a few teenagers prides. They can get over it, right?

Contrary, any economical/social warfare we will engage Hags in could have unforeseen consequences. Even if Asuma agrees with our position, he will be forced to take the minimal risk approach.

If Hazō or Keiko will throw a tantrum, he can just go with "ok, then she'll marry Neji or GTFO of Leaf". And that would be bad whether you think the Hags should be destroyed or not.

By the way, @Lailoken, for a smart player as Hinata it would be a lot easier to bet on us destroying the Hags and plan accordingly. Probably making the Hags martyrs and uniting all conservatives around herself to retaliate. She knows we're capable (and have Mari), so our win is a safe bet. And sacrificing an unruly pawn of Hagoromo (that tried to change colour at Hokage vote, by the way) is hardly a tough choice.

#dontkillHags. Put them in a zoo instead.
 
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