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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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A little late but an important thing to consider about revealing FOOM to Keiko is that we currently do not have the infrastructure to support even 3 initial FOOMS. The koi are currently providing 625 CR per day. The starting level of FOOM is 225 CR per day. I'm addition every member has taken the Yamaka training Jutsu that cost 20 CR per day. 60 for Noburi since he pays triple cost. That means for just Hazō and Akane we are spending 550 CR per day. And the cost of FOOM will just continue to increase. Until we have expanded our Koi farm significantly we fundamentally can't support more than 2 people FOOMing. So it is best to keep it secret from Keiko until we can expand our farm
 
Kiba said:
Fund a glassworking group to reinvent the telescope.
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This is not acceptable, it's not us hunting down the telescope merchant!

[X] Continue previous Plan

(Also lets not do that thing where the previous plan just doesnt get done because of a sequence of interludes because thats just a bit silly.)
 
Oneiros said:
A little late but an important thing to consider about revealing FOOM to Keiko is that we currently do not have the infrastructure to support even 3 initial FOOMS. The koi are currently providing 625 CR per day. The starting level of FOOM is 225 CR per day. I'm addition every member has taken the Yamaka training Jutsu that cost 20 CR per day. 60 for Noburi since he pays triple cost. That means for just Hazō and Akane we are spending 550 CR per day. And the cost of FOOM will just continue to increase. Until we have expanded our Koi farm significantly we fundamentally can't support more than 2 people FOOMing. So it is best to keep it secret from Keiko until we can expand our farm
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The CR/day stat listed in the spreadsheet does not account for personal chakra regen. At initial 225 chakra per FOOM per day we don't even need the koi at all, since everyone FOOMing has enough CR to regen that amount within a day. Add in the Koi farm and we can afford to do that and still keep our FOOMing ninjas at above half chakra for any other expenditures of the day. Sure, eventually we will run up against higher FOOM costs per day, but that brings me to my second point:

Supposing that we can't keep maximum FOOM going for everyone at once. Okay, cool. That doesn't mean we exclude people from FOOM altogether until we have enough to perfectly accomodate them. It means we try for the optimal arrangement for everyone, whether that's 'everyone FOOMs at slightly-less-than-maximal-rate' or 'two of us FOOM at max speed and the third FOOMs more slowly'.

In my opinion, it is far from convincing that if we can't afford max FOOM for Keiko we should cut her out of the loop. And that's assuming, of course, that we don't get enough chakra from ourselves + koi (which we do for the start) or that we can't purchase enough chakra from genin as FOOM costs grow (which we likely can). Not to mention, we have some control on how FOOM grows in when we seek SC 40. Taking a brief digression to level SC to 40 would, looking at the spreadsheet, essentially cut costs in half per person.

So overall I don't think this changes anything.

edit: also, think about how it'd look if this was the reason we gave Keiko. "So, we did the math, and there was only enough chakra for you to FOOM half as fast as us. We decided that, even though we were in agreement on wanting to bring you in on this, it would be too awkward if there wasn't enough spare chakra for all three of us. Soooo, that's why we left you in the dark until now about our super awesome training technique to become demigods."
 
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Speaking of chakra farms, I'd been considering certain chakra plants that don't move to be of interest in making a farm. One of the interludes during the election revealed rice plants are chakra-enhanced and gain locomotive abilities only after adulthood, for instance; keeping them chakra-drained could have interesting effects on their development.

Wasn't there a series of plans on developing seals that mimic sunlight for plant growth? Maybe we could combine these research ideas...

Edit: Wait, can we plant rice seeds in the Seventh Path and make a chakra farm that way?
 
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I don't mind trading FOOM to Keiko for some juicy forbidden lore. Hazou could drop incredibly subtle hints that he knows she knows something he wishes to know but thathe also knows she doesn't know that he knows something she wishes she'd know. There's got to be a simple handsign for that.
 
Oneiros said:
The koi are currently providing 625 CR per day.
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Right now they provide nothing, since you haven't actually aquired them yet.


Other note, ponwog: We typically don't worry about chakra costs of training, but I would be inclined to figure on it for Shadow Clone and other very high-cost skills. Hazō does not have the reserves to cast it more than once per day without a refill. That means that training will take significantly longer.
 
eaglejarl said:
Other note, ponwog: We typically don't worry about chakra costs of training, but I would be inclined to figure on it for Shadow Clone and other very high-cost skills. Hazō does not have the reserves to cast it more than once per day without a refill. That means that training will take significantly longer.
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Wait, I'm...confused, can we not make multiple Shadow Clones and train them all at once (i.e., in one training block)?
 
faflec said:
Wait, I'm...confused, can we not make multiple Shadow Clones and train them all at once (i.e., in one training block)?
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I believe the intent is 'if there's any excess between the cost of the first Shadow Clone cast and his total reserves, consider that chakra spent on miscellaneous stuff and not available for the second cast'. Or something thereabouts. Not sure how that interacts with scaling up the clones cast with a single use of the technique, though.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
I believe the intent is 'if there's any excess between the cost of the first Shadow Clone cast and his total reserves, consider that chakra spent on miscellaneous stuff and not available for the second cast'. Or something thereabouts. Not sure how that interacts with scaling up the clones cast with a single use of the technique, though.
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Right, but eaglejarl said that it would slow down training, even though we could do a single training block with multiple SC from 1 cast? I dunno, am confuse.
 
faflec said:
Right, but eaglejarl said that it would slow down training, even though we could do a single training block with multiple SC from 1 cast? I dunno, am confuse.
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The point is that until we have unlimited chakra, training the Shadow Clone technique itself is quite difficult.
 
eaglejarl said:
Right now they provide nothing, since you haven't actually aquired them yet.


Other note, ponwog: We typically don't worry about chakra costs of training, but I would be inclined to figure on it for Shadow Clone and other very high-cost skills. Hazō does not have the reserves to cast it more than once per day without a refill. That means that training will take significantly longer.
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I thought we already have a deal and just need to be rubberstampped and things will happen?
 
eaglejarl said:
Right now they provide nothing, since you haven't actually aquired them yet.


Other note, ponwog: We typically don't worry about chakra costs of training, but I would be inclined to figure on it for Shadow Clone and other very high-cost skills. Hazō does not have the reserves to cast it more than once per day without a refill. That means that training will take significantly longer.
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If you mean by this 'it should take longer IC to train Shadow Clone than other techniques, regardless of XP available, due to chakra costs mandating that training be spaced out', then I can help do some rudimentary guesswork for how to make that work out more concretely:
  • Let's assume that one cast of SC is about 200 chakra.
    • Most normal jutsu tend to cost up to 50 chakra, sometimes more but it's a decent soft upper limit.
    • As a result, we can say that Shadow Clone costs 4x as much as a normal jutsu.
  • For a normal jutsu, we could train it as fast as we gain XP. For simplicity's sake, let's peg that at 4 XP/day.
    • If Shadow Clone costs 4x as much chakra as a normal jutsu, we intuitively should be able to use it 1/4 as much, and thus need 4x as long to train it.
    • Thus we can estimate that we can spend only 1 XP/day on Shadow Clone at one cast per day.
      • We can generalize that to '1 XP/cast' to account for refilling on chakra.
ponwog, does that sound about right?
 
I was actually just thinking about that - could someone direct me to where I could find the specifics behind chakra cost for jutsu and how they're discounted as they level up?

If we assume that jutsu cost about, say 20 chakra, that mean excluding chakra boost Hazou can perform ~13 jutsu before running out. I feel that with that little chakra massive battles must be a mess and seals are a hugely important force multiplier, and the Akatsuki must have had incredible chakra reserves to fight against all 5 villages and not run out.

Also Naruto must actually have an insane amount of chakra to, when fighting Conjura, be able to have so many shadow clones all using Rasengan, which cannot be chakra efficient (assuming 150+50*N for the shadow clones and 50*N for the Rasengan, that's ten thousand chakra for 100 shadow clones)
 
GlassOlive said:
I was actually just thinking about that - could someone direct me to where I could find the specifics behind chakra cost for jutsu and how they're discounted as they level up?

If we assume that jutsu cost about, say 20 chakra, that mean excluding chakra boost Hazou can perform ~13 jutsu before running out. I feel that with that little chakra massive battles must be a mess and seals are a hugely important force multiplier, and the Akatsuki must have had incredible chakra reserves to fight against all 5 villages and not run out.

Also Naruto must actually have an insane amount of chakra to, when fighting Conjura, be able to have so many shadow clones all using Rasengan, which cannot be chakra efficient (assuming 150+50*N for the shadow clones and 50*N for the Rasengan, that's ten thousand chakra for 100 shadow clones)
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They aren't discounted as they level up, but rather you unlock a higher tier of Effect, which you pay more for. As an example, Pantokrator's Hammer gives you [Effect] tags on the Aspect "Power of the Pangolin". If you cast it at Effect 1 you get 1 tag and pay 12 chakra. If you cast it at Effect 3 you get 3 tags but pay 22 chakra.

The specifics will be listed for each jutsu, including how Effect correlates with level. Often, the maximum Effect you can cast at is the Aspect Bonus of the jutsu, so level 10 would give you AB 2 and a maximum Effect of 2. Pantokrator's Hammer has a maximum Effect of AB*1.5, so at level 10 you have AB 2 and max Effect 3.

You can find these jutsu rules from the link on the front page, which I've copied here.

The rapid spending this entails is counterbalanced only by the fact that ninja combat is rocket tag. You might run out of chakra within three turns of fighting, but most of the time after three turns one side is already dead.

Also, yeah, Naruto is loaded with chakra, to a ludicrous degree. This is why jinchuuriki are basically all S-rankers even aside from how they release a WMD if you kill them. They can take the most OP, most chakra-inefficient jutsu their village has to offer, and spam it every turn.
 
GlassOlive said:
Also Naruto must actually have an insane amount of chakra to, when fighting Conjura, be able to have so many shadow clones all using Rasengan, which cannot be chakra efficient (assuming 150+50*N for the shadow clones and 50*N for the Rasengan, that's ten thousand chakra for 100 shadow clones)
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If I remember correctly, the QMs have said that Naruto has, in practice, unlimited chakra due to his nature as a jinchuuriki.

(Now, whether that's due to being a jinchuuriki, or specifically his nature as the jinchuuriki of the nine tail's, I don't know. But that bit of vague ambiguity leaves enough room to ruminate on what the hierarchy of biju entails. Is it just the amount of chakra? Does the power scale linearly or exponentially between "tails"? Is there a metaphysical component to their existence? Who knows! Well, the QMs do. But part of why I'm eager to try and befriend Naruto --aside from being on the same side of Uplift, sharing Jiraiya as a legal/personal father figure, and being united by a shared loyalty to the Leaf --is to learn more about Tailed Beasts.)
 
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Does the Uzumaki clan have extra chakra reserves in this universe? If so, would be interesting to know if the effects are linear or multiplicative. Maybe Naruto's 5x the average jinchuuriki just from that.
 
The plan seems awfully sparse. I could see it as being read as anything from, "hey, have you invented sacks?", to, "this is a Clan Secret glue bomb seal", to "welcome to treason, have skywalkers!"
 
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