[x] Action Plan: Lightcone-Ending OPSEC Incident, Narrowly Avoided

@Noumero I am going to point out the obvious proof of this: Naruto. Who has chakra for days and probably the Resolve to match, has clearly had SC for many years and is, well, one of the S class ninja left in Leaf. And he's our age. I'd hope that Hazou mentions him in the discussion, and how OP he is even when compared to his fellow Jinchuriki.
 
Why do we not include Keiko?

e: Why include Mari, who is mentally highly fragile?
 
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Issues of the 'Shadow Clone to godhood' plan I see:
1. As Hazo sees it, he's creating and murdering massive numbers of Hazo.
2. Three Years is a really long time to be grinding nothing but Resolve.
3. Even after those 3 years, Hazo's combat ability won't be very good, and as a Clan Head Sealmaster with a Unique Bloodline
4. For other Ninja, it may be difficult to accumalate enough exp.
5. It might be, in-universe, a shadow clone feedback loop does not work due to, for example, Resolve being trainable only so far (say, to 70 or 80).
 
Issues of the 'Shadow Clone to godhood' plan I see:
1. As Hazo sees it, he's creating and murdering massive numbers of Hazo.
2. Three Years is a really long time to be grinding nothing but Resolve.
3. Even after those 3 years, Hazo's combat ability won't be very good, and as a Clan Head Sealmaster with a Unique Bloodline
4. For other Ninja, it may be difficult to accumalate enough exp.
5. It might be, in-universe, a shadow clone feedback loop does not work due to, for example, Resolve being trainable only so far (say, to 70 or 80).

The way I see it:
1. IC, I think that he'll get desensitized. I mean, is it weird and terrifying? Yes. Is it more weird and terrifying than your standard ninja life? Not sure. And OOC, it seems like high Resolve should help with that.
2. Definitely, but, y'know, priorities.
3. I don't even know if that's a problem: how many times in the last few IC months has Hazō actually fought?
As to 4 and 5, I think we'll just have to see.

Of course, worrying about all this might be premature, so it's good to get the perspectives of the token sane team members:
[x] Action Plan: Lightcone-Ending OPSEC Incident, Narrowly Avoided
 
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Issues of the 'Shadow Clone to godhood' plan I see:
1. As Hazo sees it, he's creating and murdering massive numbers of Hazo.
2. Three Years is a really long time to be grinding nothing but Resolve.
3. Even after those 3 years, Hazo's combat ability won't be very good, and as a Clan Head Sealmaster with a Unique Bloodline
4. For other Ninja, it may be difficult to accumalate enough exp.
5. It might be, in-universe, a shadow clone feedback loop does not work due to, for example, Resolve being trainable only so far (say, to 70 or 80).

I don't think 4 and 5 are among the issues in the context (WOQM is that levels aren't hard capped at any particular value, and I'm not sure why 4 is problematic actually).

For the others:

1) Hazou doesn't seem like the typw of person to really care overly much.

2+3) I'm not sure where the 3 years figure is coming from, but its not possible to train Resolve to 60-80 without also training other (useful) stats to the 50-70 range. That could include some combat stuff, that could include social skills, or that could be sealing (or earth jutsu or whatever else we want).

In general the prospective plan thats got the most support behind it is "Throw Resolve and other SC requisitedtats wayyy up there, intermittently support with Social skills (thus making us ridiculously overpowered in social combat), also level Sealing stuff for long term utility gains. In the meantime, recruit allies and minions with aforementioned social skills, some of which you'll optimize their combat stuff and have around as Designated FacePuncher Persons. Once thats done and we're able to consistently get 3000 XP/year or whatever, we can just pile that on to any stats we'd need higher levels of."
 
You were too kind to say, but I shoulder most of the blame here.
No worries, and thanks.

Indirect stacking of EM must also have been a pain in your neck so I'll take "EM doesn't stack" at face value like it should have been in the first place.
Actually, I think "use EM to make ice, wait for the ice to cool the air, use EM to lower it further" works. Obviously, physics won't let you go lower than the freezing point of the ice.

leaving macerators as the only viable method of high speed flight left. I'm thinking of mathing out if the problem can be brute forced with a sky carriage -- some number of the passengers dedicated purely to firing macerators vertically to maintain altitude and some purely horizontally/obliquely for speed and steering. Seems like it'd be a bumpy ride.
Are...are you talking about making an Orion drive out of seals???

...SQUEEeeeeeeeeee.....!!!

Before I waste a bunch of time, anyone have an intuition about whether this is worth pursuing or orders of magnitude away from being efficient?
@Radvic ? This is up your alley.
 
it would've ended with Asuma figuring out SC FOOM

I think Asuma knows about it, but just doesn't think it's realistic to do for large amounts of ninja. I mean he knows how Naruto became so strong and he knows that Noburi can distribute chakra, it might just be him not realizing it, but in-universe people don't have spreadsheets, so he likely doesn't think: "Oh I just have to train up my resolve? Cool!".

It's the same reason Jiriayia wanted us to have so much chakra in the first place, he couldn't measure chakra based on level.

Except someone's even more well-positioned to exploit this: Orochimaru. Biosealing-based modifications might allow him to easily offset clone sickness, he'll solve the chakra problem somehow (kidnap a Wakahisa?), and then he'll be unstoppable. Already an immortal S-rank sealmaster, this'll make him a god.

It's adorable that you think he doesn't know.

But I don't really have a problem with the plan.

[x] Action Plan: Lightcone-Ending OPSEC Incident, Narrowly Avoided
 
@Noumero, I looked at your plan and I don't feel confident in the 'I made some guesstimates' part of it. Hazou hasn't yet used the jutsu for training at all so he doesn't know even with n=1 shadow clones how effective the training is. I think instead a better approach would be Hazou pondering what's stopping any ol' ninja from pulling a Naruto, and realizing that Noburi breaks one of the major roadblocks. So maybe something more like this:
  • I was trying to figure out what it'd take to get as much training benefit out of it as Naruto does, and I think there are only two roadblocks: chakra, and ability to withstand summoning sickness. There are exercises that can over time help you withstand summoning sickness, and Noburi is the master of chakra, so if someone has Noburi to help them and focuses for a while on those exercises they could plausibly get a lot more training benefit than normal.
There's probably a better way to word it, but I do think that approaching it from 'I was thinking about how to pull a Naruto' instead of 'I extrapolated from n=0' would make his concerns appear stronger and better-founded.
 
Are...are you talking about making an Orion drive out of seals???

...SQUEEeeeeeeeeee.....!!!

*googles Orion Drives*
Huh. Well, skygliders are so last century. I'd vote for a plan that goes along with this.

Before I waste a bunch of time, anyone have an intuition about whether this is worth pursuing or orders of magnitude away from being efficient?

Interviewing Explosives and Fire-Style Specialists to learn more about the nature of explosions and whatnot in MfD. I mean, I'm sure that someone in Leaf has tried firebending-esque flight in some shape or form. Couldn't hurt, at least. Might even get something interesting! I'm adding it to my own plan down below:

[x] Action Plan: Preparations and Preventative Care
Wordcount: 299
  • Tsunade
    • Schedule a meeting
      • Maybe she has insights into sanitation issue
    • Broach Honoka's care
      • Not requesting personal attention, just recommendation on a medic nin that wouldn't look down on our baby sister for her clanless origins
  • Kagome
    • Is Hazou still Infected?
    • Interview about explosives and their relation to flight
    • Focus on decrypting notes
      • Spend Fatepoint so that Jiraiya included detailed Academy notes on students who ruptured their chakra coils.
      • Compare to what we know of Honoka's training plan, is Kagome doing something different, something safer?
  • Ebisu/Asuma
    • Bring up using crippled Leaf nin for (compensated) seal activation
      • How is Leaf currently using these people?
    • Finalize report for Asuma, debrief him before we leave
  • Mari
    • Ask about Mist's style of training versus Kagome's versus Leaf's
      • How's Kagome's training in comparison to all three?
        • Does she think our precious baby sister's going to be okay
    • Ask for her insight into Noburi/Yuno debacle
      • He's our brother and he's better than this.
      • Yuno's our friend and she's worth more than this.
      • They're both being stupid and hurting each other because of it and that's hurting us.
  • Yuno
    • Warn her of our departure
      • ask if she'd like to join us
        • stretch her legs
    • Commiserate on how weird Leaf is
    • Be her friend, offer to spend some Isan-style friendship bonding time
      • Hazou has Noburi/Mari/Keiko for Mist-culture familiarity/touchstone but Yuno has no one
        • She's our friend. We may not be an Isan native, but we're familiar with the culture
          • She's out friend and we can damned-well try
  • Gaku
    • Ask him to investigate investment opportunities that don't conflict with Uplift Philosophy
      • Don't act, just look
    • Keep Skyglider/Sanitation guys going
    • Look for Fire Jutsu and Explosives Specialists willing to be interviewed
 
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Before I waste a bunch of time, anyone have an intuition about whether this is worth pursuing or orders of magnitude away from being efficient?

The main bottleneck for other explosive propulsion systems (e.g. rockets, machine gun jetpacks, etc) is the weight of the fuel. Heavier fuel sets a lower max bound on weight of the passengers.

With fuel made of paper? Hell, you can scale it up as much as you need.
 
"Hey, I can—" Kagome-sensei broke off, head cocked to the side as an idea obviously struck him. "Forget the bioseals. I want Ebisu."

"Um...what?"

"Kagome," Mari-sensei began carefully, "when you say you 'want' Ebisu, what exactly do you mean by that?"

"He's a teacher, right? Everyone respects him as a teacher?"

"Yeah...? He's the best. People fight to get time with him."

Kagome-sensei nodded decisively. "I want him to watch me teach Honoka, and to see the progress she's made. If he thinks my methods are good, I want him to tell those stinkers at the Academy that they're doing it wrong and they should do what I tell them. Leaf's education system sucks goat snot. Need to fix that."
Uh oh...

I think we may have unintentionally undermined Kagome wanting Ebisu to oversee Hanoka's training by stealing him for our non-clan training.

Yikes.

I think this might be our fault.

Kagome would know about the training job we had Ebisu on and would get oversight elsewhere, right?
 
Dealing with Kagome is pretty straightforward. The first thing to do is figure out whether early chakra training is dangerous in-and-of itself, or just gives too dangerous a tool to people not mature enough to handle their lack of margin. If the latter is actually the case, Kagome has come up with a pretty good solution already. Train their chakra by having them activate seals. It inherently takes a very small, known amount, and if they aren't permitted to have seals while not training they simply won't be able to work on their own outside of a controlled and supervised environment. Plus, if there's anybody who can impress the importance of safety procedures and paranoid caution it's Kagome.

As for convincing him of the potential dangers, Ebisu just said that there are former students who have been crippled by this. Kagome can simply meet with and ask them. He can speak to direct witnesses of the kids who got themselves killed.
 
Dealing with Kagome is pretty straightforward. The first thing to do is figure out whether early chakra training is dangerous in-and-of itself, or just gives too dangerous a tool to people not mature enough to handle their lack of margin. If the latter is actually the case, Kagome has come up with a pretty good solution already. Train their chakra by having them activate seals. It inherently takes a very small, known amount, and if they aren't permitted to have seals while not training they simply won't be able to work on their own outside of a controlled and supervised environment. Plus, if there's anybody who can impress the importance of safety procedures and paranoid caution it's Kagome.

As for convincing him of the potential dangers, Ebisu just said that there are former students who have been crippled by this. Kagome can simply meet with and ask them. He can speak to direct witnesses of the kids who got themselves killed.

Not to advertise my own plan or anything, but it has Kagome stumbling across the records of those students via decryption, Mari comparing Kagome's teaching methods to Mist's and to Leaf's, and then it has Hazou talking to Tsunade about it...

If that's what you're looking for, of course
>.>
<.<
 
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You used agile project management

Okay, so I've been fine with the assassination plans, the necromancy, wanting to apprentice under Oro, the neverending stream of WMDs. Let them have their fun, I thought. How bad can it possibly be in practice, I reasoned. Everything was going to be ok.

This, though? This is a bridge too far. Nobody deserves this.
 
Okay, so I've been fine with the assassination plans, the necromancy, wanting to apprentice under Oro, the neverending stream of WMDs. Let them have their fun, I thought. How bad can it possibly be in practice, I reasoned. Everything was going to be ok.

This, though? This is a bridge too far. Nobody deserves this.
Not even Kouta?
 
[x] Action Plan: Preparations and Preventative Care

@Noumero
The plan sounds a bit agressive/confident when saying sharing Foom with Ami/Leaf is a bad idea. What do you think of phrasing it as these are Hazou's concerns of sharing it, what do they think of whether to share it? Also, the way you've phrased Orochimaru will make Hazou think Oro isn't a good potential ally. I think it would be good to hold off on that till we learn more about Oro.
 
Okay, so I've been fine with the assassination plans, the necromancy, wanting to apprentice under Oro, the neverending stream of WMDs. Let them have their fun, I thought. How bad can it possibly be in practice, I reasoned. Everything was going to be ok.

This, though? This is a bridge too far. Nobody deserves this.
Everything is going to be okay.
 
You made the same mistake as I did on the plan name. What you want is:
[x] Action Plan: Lightcone-Ending OPSEC Incident, Narrowly Avoided

Perfect. Will do. You were too kind to say, but I shoulder most of the blame here. Rest assured it's put to bed. Indirect stacking of EM must also have been a pain in your neck so I'll take "EM doesn't stack" at face value like it should have been in the first place.

I've lost confidence in my ability to properly specify hot air balloons, leaving macerators as the only viable method of high speed flight left. I'm thinking of mathing out if the problem can be brute forced with a sky carriage -- some number of the passengers dedicated purely to firing macerators vertically to maintain altitude and some purely horizontally/obliquely for speed and steering. Seems like it'd be a bumpy ride. Does anyone know how to handle the discreet forces of macerator impacts needing to combat the continuous force of gravity or is that naturally worked in to F=MA if it's 1 impact per second?

Currently unsure what a reasonable weight for the carriage would be. Don't expect the carriage withstanding macerator impacts to be a problem, but it might end up heavy enough to be annoying to carry up to operational height. Other variables:
  • Macerator shoots out 100kg projectile at 20m/s. I have that as 20,000N of force per shot, maybe call it 70% of that lost to inefficiency of energy transfer in the collision.
    • Could maybe eke more out of this by accelerating seals, but eventually it would be too much for the carriage to handle.
  • Treating how fast ninja can activate seals per round as identical to combat scenarios to be conservative.
  • Macerator seals need to be replaced after 100 cycles.
  • 70kg per passenger.
Before I waste a bunch of time, anyone have an intuition about whether this is worth pursuing or orders of magnitude away from being efficient?
@Radvic ? This is up your alley.
*Sees tag*
*Briefly mourns over not having the time to do the physics*
*Remembers he came up with a similar concept in 2017 and had started on (but not finished) the math*
*Quotes*
Kinda ran out of steam on the math here, but figured it was worth publishing partly finished. The concept works, but the math is a little harder than I initially thought it would be, so I'm unsure exactly how much thrust this idea would create. My intuition is that it'd be on the order of magnitude of the amount of forward thrust as a car engine makes.

Radvic's Analysis of Mechanical Abomination as a Form of Airship Propulsion (Work in Progress)


There have been several proposals for propulsion for a zeppelin type project. From vague applications of explosive seals, to airbased seal propellors to fast falling areodynamic airships. Here, we propose a separate, previously undiscussed (on SV) method of propulsion, lovingly named the Mechanical Abomination (MA). The concept is to modify the Macerator V2.0 slightly to make a type of perpetual motion machine, creating an endless cycle of thrust. To my knowledge, this construction would require two modifications to the Macerator seal: 1, the Macerator no longer minces objects, and 2, the Macerator is triggered via a tripwire. For the purposes of this article, I will describe such seals (store something at rest via tripwire, then release it at 20 m/s via a second tripwire) as Thrusters. Given the minor nature of these modifications, I expect it would take something like one to three days to construct a Thruster seal.


General Concept​
Macerators don't have a recoil to them. This means they are imparting force to a system. Thrusters take this concept, make it easier to harness by not mincing contents, and automate it via tripwires.

Method​
Take one thruster seal and affix it over a box (box construction material currently unspecified, likely wood, could be granite). We will call this Thruster seal Thruster 1. Have Thruster 1 face another box with a thruster seal, with the two boxes connected via a ninja-wire, and looping over a length of material (likely wood, possibly granite). We will call the second thruster seal Thruster 2, the connecting ninja wire the Wire, and the material all these are on and around the Assembly. Add a third and fourth Thruster in front of the second Thruster. Store a block of mass M into Thruster 1, and have it unseal it into the box of Thruster 2. Mass M then falls into the box of Thruster 2, imparting a force to the system. Thruster 1, Thruster 2, Thruster 3, Thruster 4, Mass M, and the Wire, and the Assembly now begin moving forward due to conservation of linear momentum, and everything aside from the Assembly begins rotating around the Assembly due to conservation of angular momentum. Have a tripwire at the bottom of the box mass M falls into store mass M into Thruster 2. Next, wait until the Wire rotates Thruster 2 into the position Thruster 1 was in relative to the Assembly. Have it activate a tripwire which unseals mass M from Thruster 2, which shoots it forward, landing into the box of Thruster 3. Wait until Thruster 3 has rotated into position, and have it launch mass M into Thruster 4. Wait until thurster 4 is in position, and launch mass M into Thruster 1. Repeat.

The net effect of this is to create some forward momentum with each unsealing of mass M, and some angular momentum. The problem of created angular momentum can be solved by having an even number of Mechanical Abominations, with an equal number rotating clockwise and counterclockwise.

Analysis of impulse provided by an individual Mechanical Abomination​
Each time that a thruster unseals mass M, we get an impulse of 20 m/s * M added to the system. To determine exactly how much thrust this adds to the system with each iteration, we consider each relevant interaction the system undergoes by considering three different times and the transitions between them. At time 1, mass M is sealed. At time 2, mass M is flying towards the Thruster box ahead of it. At time 3, mass M has collided with the thruster box ahead of it and is at an equilibrium with the system. This then cycles back to time 1.

To do the math, we will make the following assumptions:
Mass of the Wire is negligible.
The Wire sufficiently connects Thruster Boxes such that they do not vary in their placement relative to each other.
Angular momentum is solved via symmetry and thus ignored.
All of the material strengths are sufficient to not break with the forces undertaken.
Mass of Thruster boxes = 5 kg per box
Mass of Assembly = 10 kg
Mass of Mass M = 100 kg
Number of Thruster boxes = 4 per Mechanical Abomination

At Time 1, all is considered at rest.

At Time 2, Mass M is traveling forward at 20 m/s with a net momentum of m * v = 2000 kgm/s

At Time 3, Mass M has come to equilibrium with the rest of the system, meaning momentum at Time 2 = momentum at Time 3, or

p_2 = p_3

Where we solved for p_2 earlier as 2000 kgm/s

p_3 is equal to the linear momentum of each of the constituent parts. Or,

p_3 = p_thrusterboxes + p_mass_M + p_assembly

Due to the thruster boxes being connected to each other via the Wire and rotating around the Assembly, we know the net momentum of the thruster boxes is:

p_thrusterboxes = m_thrusterboxes * number_thrusterboxes * v_assembly

We also know the momentum of the assembly is given by

p_assembly = m_assembly * v_assembly

and momentum of mass M is

p_Mass_M = m_Mass_M * v_Mass_M

Which gives us one equation and two variables... which I can't be bothered to solve right now (proper solving would account for angular momentum and use that equation to calculate forward impulse, but that will be dependant on r_perp, which will depend on the scale we make these machines). Regardless, p_3 is going to be larger than p_1, and should have a net forward moving action on the system. The exact values of which are difficult to determine (feel free to expand on this work if you want).
*Re-lurks*
 
Have another abomination-plan.

[X] Action Plan: Lightcone Prevention
Word Count: 395

Discuss with Mari and Noburi beforehand, in utmost security (in the wilderness, Tunneling Exavaction-ed underground beyond Byakugan range, Air Domes, security jutsu from Mari??).
  • Explain the details of Shadow Clone, and our guesstimates.
    • We suspect that with enough chakra to summon ~30 clones daily and years of training to handle clone sickness, learning speed could be quadrupled.
      • Rough analogy: If Hazou had Jiraiya's talent, he could catch up within a decade.
      • Thanks to Noburi, we'll soon have this. Within a decade, we'll all hit S-rank.
      • This is our path to broadly fix the world within our lifetime.
    • But there are people who could abuse this harder.
      • Orochimaru's already S-rank and has access to exotic abilities that could offset clone sickness. All he'd need is a Wakahisa to attain godhood.
      • Ami's also in this position should she learn SC. How likely is this?
      • Clans in general, due to sheer numbers.
        • They may not have chakra transfer, but Hazou imagines Noburi would be pressured to provide services.
    • This is clearly a need-to-know secret even within the clan, for now.
      • We believe chakra transfer and SC haven't interacted before, and SC-users consider it a weapon instead of a training tool, so this may not have been discovered yet. How do we keep it this way, now that Leaf has VD?
        • Should we spread subtle disinformation about VD?
        • Plant evidence suggesting it's bad at interfacing with certain chakra constructs?
  • Handle Ebisu's concerns on Honoka.
    • Search Leaf General Hospital's archives for evidence of Ebisu's claims.
      • Get details/numbers of crippled kids.
      • Talk to survivors and get their stories.
      • Follow-up on other leads.
    • Talk with Kagome. Bring Mari and Noburi.
      • Explain Ebisu's concerns and suggestions.
      • Show him our collected evidence. Offer to arrange meetings with survivors.
      • Ask Kagome how he wants to proceed.
        • Make sure he won't harming Ebisu.
        • We do believe Honoka's fine. Ebisu thinks overexertion was the cause, but Kagome'd never do that to Honoka.
        • OTOH, Ebisu doesn't think Kagome can change his mind. Leaf holds his teaching skills in high regard, which may impact Kagome's desire for education reform.
Separately, discuss your quarantine with Mari and Kagome.
  • It's been a month, you've been fairly active, and there haven't been any incidents.
  • Do they think it's sufficient to be cleared?
Misc.:
  • Use the scientific method and work with Kunihiro to isolate important factors in research.
  • Perform Ami-style training daily.
 
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[X] Action Plan: Lightcone Prevention

It still has my problem of basing Hazou's concerns on guesstimates he has no way of knowing, but it's toned down, and it also covers the Honoka problem which I appreciate.
 
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