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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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I've been thinking about the Dead Man's Doomsday Switch, and I still think the idea is viable enough to at least be discussed with Mari and Kagome. If it proves workable, it'll make us a lot less vulnerable to violent death-by-S-ranker, which we sorely need, with Orochimaru here, Akatsuki due to contact us, and the war looming. In the best-case scenario, we'll scare Rock off from starting the war altogether (at least, in combination with Oro's reappearance).

I'll post the plan for this soon enough, but I expect that discussion to be lengthy. What do you all think must be included in any plan for the next update?
 
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Noumero said:
I've been thinking about the Dead Man's Doomsday Switch, and I still think the idea is viable enough to at least be discussed with Mari and Kagome. If it proves workable, it'll make us a lot less vulnerable to violent death-by-S-ranker, which we sorely need, with Orochimaru here, Akatsuki due to contact us, and the war looming. In the best-case scenario, we'll scare Rock off from starting the war altogether (at least, in combination with Oro's reappearance).

I'll post the plan for this soon enough, but I expect that discussion to be lengthy. What do you all think must be included in any plan for the next update?
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Only the part where we ensure we have a new estate and/or funds to purchase a new estate. It's rather important, but I feel like we'd just be leaving it up to Mari.

Personally, I wouldn't mind looking over Jiraiya's old spy notes, maybe some of his contacts/blackmail material could help us on this.
 
Noumero said:
I've been thinking about the Dead Man's Doomsday Switch, and I still think the idea is viable enough to at least be discussed with Mari and Kagome. If it proves workable, it'll make us a lot less vulnerable to violent death-by-S-ranker, which we sorely need, with Orochimaru here, Akatsuki due to contact us, and the war looming. In the best-case scenario, we'll scare Rock off from starting the war altogether (at least, in combination with Oro's reappearance).

I'll post the plan for this soon enough, but I expect that discussion to be lengthy. What do you all think must be included in any plan for the next update?
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How do you think Orochimaru would respond to an X-risk from someone nowhere near good enough to defend themselves otherwise?
 
It's a shitty plan, but I have to start somewhere.

[X] Action Plan: Contracts and Contacts
Word Count: 191
  • First Priority: Buy an estate.
    • Mari, can you put pressure on the Tower to get a refund/compensation?
    • Jiraiya'd pinged the Shimura/Hyuga-neighbour estates as alternatives. Are they still available, and how much would they cost? See if we have enough funds to buy it on mortgage, or how much more we'd need to do so.
  • Go talk to Kabuto, get the results of the Noburi study. We really need to get conformation that he can use SC/Summoning.
  • Set up the Forbidden Lore meeting.
    • What's the status on OPSEC seals like Jiraiya's? Do we have enough anti-Byakugan seals?
    • Do we have a secure location in the village? Should we take a till-n-fill?
    • Let's include Naruto - he has good clearance and can help us out.
  • Look over the spy notes Jiraiya left us, then try to make contact with these people.
    • Focus especially on people in Fire, and especially in/near Konoha.
    • He had blackmail on some people, who are they and how could they be useful to us?
    • Hey Naruto, do you know some people we could work with?
  • In our spare time, make and sell seals to the Tower.
 
@Velorien, would it be fine if I put the design of the doomsday device under a spoiler and don't include it in the wordcount calculations?
Cariyaga said:
How do you think Orochimaru would respond to an X-risk from someone nowhere near good enough to defend themselves otherwise?
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Let's find out together! Don't worry, the current design avoids the suspended-animation failure state.
roobee said:
The plan tactics seem too confrontational and underhanded for my taste.
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Oneiros said:
At the very least we need to start to try to acquire the dog scroll
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faflec said:
Only the part where we ensure we have a new estate and/or funds to purchase a new estate. It's rather important, but I feel like we'd just be leaving it up to Mari.
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Does this seem sensible?
  • Meet with Hiashi (take Mari and Naruto along, don't do if Mari's sure it'll fail).
    • Basic idea: It's within Orochimaru's power to take the hat from Hiashi, and Hiashi acutely knows it.
    • Offer Hiashi an alliance.
    • We'll cooperate with him on managing Orochimaru. Naruto will provide his public support to mitigate Oro's threat, and we'll try to get Tsunade's backing too. Hazou is planning to become Orochimaru's apprentice — he could be Hiashi's double agent.
    • In exchange, we get the Shimura compound, the Dog Scroll, and Hiashi stops fucking around with Naruto's Council seat. He'll also push to get Noburi, Hazou, and Keiko bloodline teachers from Mist.
  • If the Hiashi meeting didn't work out, buy the Shimura compound. Ask Naruto for another loan if necessary, and continue pressuring the Tower.
(Obviously we'll then say we're Orochimaru's triple agent, but actually we're working for ourselves. You know how that goes.)
Personally, I wouldn't mind looking over Jiraiya's old spy notes, maybe some of his contacts/blackmail material could help us on this.
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Didn't we vote to do that on, like, five separate occasions?
 
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Noumero said:
Does this seem sensible?
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Serious question: What is the threat Orochimaru poses, and how much is Hiashi going to care about said threat? FMPOV Orochimaru's main plan is to continue his trend of human experimentation, but I feel like he's already going to be doing these experiments on civilians or clanless ninja. They're more readily available and easier to grab, and Hiashi'll be sure to throw them under the bus to keep the clans (i.e., the ruling class, the people who can actually make trouble) from grumbling too much. Why should Hiashi give us any concessions to help these people, who he cares about very little and who we are known to care about A LOT?
Noumero said:
Didn't we vote to do that on, like, five separate occasions?
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*shrugs* This'll make 6, I guess.
 
faflec said:
Serious question: What is the threat Orochimaru poses, and how much is Hiashi going to care about said threat? FMPOV Orochimaru's main plan is to continue his trend of human experimentation, but I feel like he's already going to be doing these experiments on civilians or clanless ninja. They're more readily available and easier to grab, and Hiashi'll be sure to throw them under the bus to keep the clans (i.e., the ruling class, the people who can actually make trouble) from grumbling too much. Why should Hiashi give us any concessions to help these people, who he cares about very little and who we are known to care about A LOT?
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The threat that Orochimaru represents is that currently he has completely unchecked authority. Hiashi can give an order with no guarantee that it will be obeyed which will diminish the power of the Hat. There is also the fact that Orochimaru might be working towards goals that Hiashi supports
 
faflec said:
Serious question: What is the threat Orochimaru poses, and how much is Hiashi going to care about said threat? FMPOV Orochimaru's main plan is to continue his trend of human experimentation, but I feel like he's already going to be doing these experiments on civilians or clanless ninja. They're more readily available and easier to grab, and Hiashi'll be sure to throw them under the bus to keep the clans (i.e., the ruling class, the people who can actually make trouble) from grumbling too much. Why should Hiashi give us any concessions to help these people, who he cares about very little and who we are known to care about A LOT?
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Hmm, fair. Ohh, what about this:

We tell Hiashi how we've talked to Orochimaru and how he'd agreed to be adopted into the clan conditional on becoming the Clan Head and getting to know all of our cool jutsu and seals. We then claim we're entirely safe from him since something something Jiraiya made him promise, so doing that wouldn't risk us becoming his research fodder. We then say we're planning to accept, what with us having no compound, the war looming, and Hiashi wanting to murder us, but we could reconsider if we get a new compound, the Dog Scroll, and an assurance he won't send us on suicide missions. (With the "you want to murder us" and "don't send us on suicide missions" stated more indirectly, of course.)

Threatening to give Orochimaru even more power should work better.
 
Oneiros said:
At the very least we need to start to try to acquire the dog scroll
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Yeah but there's no reason to bargain for it with Hiashi. Just do what we wanted with the snake scroll.

Have Keiko negotiate directly with the dog clan on our behalf: skytowers in exchange for refusing any summoner who isn't a Goketsu. That way Hiashi has to give it to us otherwise the scroll is useless, and giving the scroll to us is better than having it be completely useless to Leaf. No need to even argue for it.

Also the bloodline teachers from Mist isn't happening, Mist would never agree to that even if Hiashi did.
 
Oneiros said:
The threat that Orochimaru represents is that currently he has completely unchecked authority. Hiashi can give an order with no guarantee that it will be obeyed which will diminish the power of the Hat.
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And my concern is that Hiashi already has what I would consider sufficient methods for keeping Orochimaru in line, particularily his ability to give Orochimaru significant leeway and/or support for his research. He also did give Orochimaru a pardon which gets him Leaf's support system/his stuff (and if Orochimaru doesn't understand tit-for-tat I'll shit a brick), and does command the military forces of Leaf and the clans, which does give him the ability to make Orochimaru's life difficult if he disobeys. He's also working with Tsunade, and although she may or may not be in Leaf proper I don't think she'd take kindly to Orochimaru's more inhumane research, and Hiashi may be able to get her to counter Orochimaru if he oversteps.

Though this does beg the question I'd posed earlier, albeit in a different format: Are we seriously going to allow this to happen, if Hiashi calls us out and refuses us? Say we refuse to ally with Hiashi and Orochimaru goes about ignoring orders (that don't directly affect his experiments, so he'll probably leave to kill any invaders that enter his general area) and conducting his research. Are we seriously going to do nothing about Orochimaru's research, given that we have a really good idea what his research is going to entail? We're going to have to put pressure to diminish his research for the sake of the people he'd be researching on anyway.

And I did read your answer to my thought earlier, you said (paraphrased) that we'd just put more pressure against Hiashi with our coalition. I...don't agree with that, though. We'd still want to be putting pressure on Orochimaru, who is the greater threat; and Hiashi knows that.
Oneiros said:
There is also the fact that Orochimaru might be working towards goals that Hiashi supports
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That's a...good thing? From Hiashi's POV? I mean, I can reason out why we-the-Gouketsu might not want that, but Hiashi wouldn't mind?
Noumero said:
Threatening to give Orochimaru even more power should work better.
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Hiashi will call us out on it: he knows we care about the common people (see: our tournament speech) and he knows we'd have learned about his human experiments that Leaf found out about. And...we can't follow through. Or at least, I'd refuse to.

Edit: Also, giving Orochimaru-the-bogeyman more power sounds suicidal from a PR point of view.
 
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faflec said:
Hiashi will call us out on it: he knows we care about the common people (see: our tournament speech) and he knows we'd have learned about his human experiments that Leaf found out about. And...we can't follow through. Or at least, I'd refuse to.
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Hazou had managed to temporarily (?) argue himself into a ruthlessly utilitarian mindset here; he could just repeat that entire thought process in response.

That we won't follow through is irrelevant; bluffing is a valid tactic. Similarly, it doesn't mean that our BATNA is standing by while Oro commits atrocities, but there's no need to tell Hiashi we'd interfere whether he accepts or not.
 
faflec said:
And my concern is that Hiashi already has what I would consider sufficient methods for keeping Orochimaru in line, particularily his ability to give Orochimaru significant leeway and/or support for his research. He also did give Orochimaru a pardon which gets him Leaf's support system/his stuff (and if Orochimaru doesn't understand tit-for-tat I'll shit a brick), and does command the military forces of Leaf and the clans, which does give him the ability to make Orochimaru's life difficult if he disobeys. He's also working with Tsunade, and although she may or may not be in Leaf proper I don't think she'd take kindly to Orochimaru's more inhumane research, and Hiashi may be able to get her to counter Orochimaru if he oversteps.

Though this does beg the question I'd posed earlier, albeit in a different format: Are we seriously going to allow this to happen, if Hiashi calls us out and refuses us? Say we refuse to ally with Hiashi and Orochimaru goes about ignoring orders (that don't directly affect his experiments, so he'll probably leave to kill any invaders that enter his general area) and conducting his research. Are we seriously going to do nothing about Orochimaru's research, given that we have a really good idea what his research is going to entail? We're going to have to put pressure to diminish his research for the sake of the people he'd be researching on anyway.

And I did read your answer to my thought earlier, you said (paraphrased) that we'd just put more pressure against Hiashi with our coalition. I...don't agree with that, though. We'd still want to be putting pressure on Orochimaru, who is the greater threat; and Hiashi knows that.
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These are all really good points even if I don't really think they are huge problems. Most of Hiashi's power resolve around economic and political power which Orochimaru doesn't really have to concern himself with. If he decides to enact a military response against Orochimaru he will probably lose half of his already depleted jounin on the eve of a world war. As for Tsunade I personally doubt she is willing to play hatchet woman for Hiashi. Especially since she's not in Leaf and Orochimaru can always clean up any messes before she arrives.

Also we don't care if Orochimaru works against Hiashi in destabilizing Leafs political scene. Sure we might work to keep him in check but we aren't an inherently in the Anti-Orochimaru faction. Let's be honest it wouldn't take that much to convince a majority of the hive mind to enthusiastically work with Oro.

ultimately we aren't really only offering him an alliance against the Sannin. What we are offering him is unity with his largest political rivals. But accepting our offer he gets a unified Leaf and no longer has to worry as much of the domestic picture right before a world war
 
Oneiros said:
ultimately we aren't really only offering him an alliance against the Sannin. What we are offering him is unity with his largest political rivals. But accepting our offer he gets a unified Leaf and no longer has to worry as much of the domestic picture right before a world war
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Honestly? I think you're offering too much and asking for too little. One dumbmatter compound, one scroll, and a bunch of clan secrets Hiashi should be negotiating for anyway (since we're a Leaf clan and stealing other villages' secrets strengthens it), in exchange for modifying all our long-term plans to not subvert Hiashi? It feels weird to say it, but I think you're not being ambitious enough.
 
Noumero said:
Honestly? I think you're offering too much and asking for too little. One dumbmatter compound, one scroll, and a bunch of clan secrets Hiashi should be negotiating for anyway (since we're a Leaf clan and stealing other villages' secrets strengthens it), in exchange for modifying all our long-term plans to not subvert Hiashi? It feels weird to say it, but I think you're not being ambitious enough.
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I don't disagree with you but I have to consider what has a slight possibility of getting voted in. What I consider an appropriate amount of ambition is almost always seen as insanely dangerous
 
[x] Action Plan: On Putting the Universe Down
Wordcount: 457 (without the design)
  • Conduct creative training daily.
  • Meet with Hiashi (take Mari; don't do if she's sure it'll fail).
    • Goals: Acquire the Dog Scroll and the Shimura compound. Optional: A credible commitment to not send us on suicide missions.
    • Methods: Inform Hiashi that Orochimaru's agreed to be adopted in exchange for becoming Clan Head and learning clan-secret jutsu and Jiraiya's seals. Say you're planning to go along, since you feel unsafe without the compound and with the war looming — which might prove particularly dangerous to us. Describe how to make you feel safer.
    • If Hiashi suggests that we won't follow through because Orochimaru will...
      • ... vivisect random civilians, whom we care about: recite your ruthless-utilitarianism thought-process.
      • ... vivisect us: claim that Jiraiya made Uncle Oro promise not to harm us, and we're better tools while undamaged anyway.
  • If the Hiashi meeting didn't work out, buy the Shimura compound; ask Naruto for another loan if necessary. Continue pressuring the Tower.
  • Lease underground space beneath properties adjacent to our tavern. Employ seals and Earth jutsu to build tunnels and rooms there, connected to our tavern.
    • Get Keiko's help. She still has Panjandrum, right?
  • Discuss with Kagome and Mari (maximum-security, under Air Domes and anti-Hyuuga seals).
    • We're routinely forced to interact with elite jounin and S-rankers, and we're not powerful enough to feel safe. If Orochimaru decides to kill us, we won't be able to do anything.
    • You have a horrible potential solution. Kagome: you're really not going to like it, but it's to protect the team, and we won't do it without your approval.
    • SINs larger than twelve cause sealing failures. Speculation: each additional seal after the twelfth will cause an additional failure. First twelve seals fill up all free space, then the remaining seals try to unstore and independently fail.
    • Horrible idea:
      • Build a 112-SIN. Publicly announce our new invention, stating that we'll always carry it on ourselves and will detonate it if we're facing death.
      • You doubt even Orochimaru would be willing to chance 99 simultaneous sealing failures at zero-range.
      • Best-case scenario: it scares Rock off from starting the war.
    • Preliminary design (see below).
      • Prerequisite: A 24-hour timer seal which explodes if it isn't reset. How difficult it'd be to research?
    • Obvios issues:
      • Accidental activation. Shouldn't do it if the chance of that is greater than one-in-ten-thousand.
      • N-SINs only ever causing one failure. Let's just never check that.
      • Foreign-village agents killing us to blow Leaf up. Shouldn't be a concern: 99 simultaneous failures isn't something you want to happen on the same planet as you.
      • Watchers. They don't exist, do they?
    • If the project's approved, start production. Take a short outside-Leaf mission if necessary.
      • Build one real one, and several decoys for every Team Uplift member.

Design:
  • Use black paper for all seals (anti-Byakugan measure).
  • Fill the Implosion Seals with air, put them on top of each other, and roll them up tightly. Put the SIN roll into a compact (6x6x5 cm) but sturdy metal box encased in waterproof leather.
  • Put a 24-hour timer seal on the inner side of the box's lid. Lock it with a locking seal (Kagome had impliedhe knew them).
    • Unlocking the seal gives access to the insides, allowing to reset the timer, carefully remove the SINs, or conduct maintenance.
    • If the timer isn't reset, the box detonates.
  • Possible improvements:
    • Can anti-Byakugan seals be moved while active? If yes, put a small-radius one inside the device — no need for black paper.
    • Make the process of shaping the chakra to open the locking seal as complicated as possible, difficult to learn in a day (anti-Yamanaka measure).
    • Make the locking seal explode if the box is breached, to prevent reassembly by enemy.
    • Make the locking seal respond only to correct chakra signatures. We already have an example of a chakra-discriminating locking seal.
 
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faflec said:
Are we seriously going to do nothing about Orochimaru's research, given that we have a really good idea what his research is going to entail? We're going to have to put pressure to diminish his research for the sake of the people he'd be researching on anyway.
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I think the best we can do in that area is pressure them to experiment on criminals instead of the nearest orphan. Maybe have him focus on developing ways to increase chakra capacity for ninja and civilians instead of developing bioterrors until he takes over Leaf using cursed seals and starts working on them anyway.
 
Oneiros said:
I don't disagree with you but I have to consider what has a slight possibility of getting voted in. What I consider an appropriate amount of ambition is almost always seen as insanely dangerous
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As a frequently cautious voter, I agree with Noumero. The act of bowing to Hiashi is the big thing here. It's going to be big and hard to get support for no matter what. But, lowering the potential reward doesn't incentivize risk-adverse players. And that's a heck of a bargaining chip, and we do love shinies (also need a place to stay, and friendly doggos).
 
MMKII said:
Given that Hazou was looking at Leaf land laws: If one owns a plot of land, do they own all the land underneath it? i.e. do we own all the land underground beneath the tavern we bought?
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Think very likely yes.
faflec said:
It's a shitty plan, but I have to start somewhere.

[X] Action Plan: Contracts and Contacts
Word Count: 191
  • First Priority: Buy an estate.
    • Mari, can you put pressure on the Tower to get a refund/compensation?
    • Jiraiya'd pinged the Shimura/Hyuga-neighbour estates as alternatives. Are they still available, and how much would they cost? See if we have enough funds to buy it on mortgage, or how much more we'd need to do so.
  • Go talk to Kabuto, get the results of the Noburi study. We really need to get conformation that he can use SC/Summoning.
  • Set up the Forbidden Lore meeting.
    • What's the status on OPSEC seals like Jiraiya's? Do we have enough anti-Byakugan seals?
    • Do we have a secure location in the village? Should we take a till-n-fill?
    • Let's include Naruto - he has good clearance and can help us out.
  • Look over the spy notes Jiraiya left us, then try to make contact with these people.
    • Focus especially on people in Fire, and especially in/near Konoha.
    • He had blackmail on some people, who are they and how could they be useful to us?
    • Hey Naruto, do you know some people we could work with?
  • In our spare time, make and sell seals to the Tower.
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Can we not buy the compound right next to the Hyuga, who will be target #1 in a Battle of Konohagakure?

Also, there's no need for us to buy a traditional compound or estate and act like a traditional clan.
 
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Halberdier said:
As a frequently cautious voter, I agree with Noumero. The act of bowing to Hiashi is the big thing here. It's going to be big and hard to get support for no matter what. But, lowering the potential reward doesn't incentivize risk-adverse players. And that's a heck of a bargaining chip, and we do love shinies (also need a place to stay, and friendly doggos).
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what additional concessions would you be comfortable in trying to extract from Hiashi in exchange for cooperation
 
Oneiros said:
what additional concessions would you be comfortable in trying to extract from Hiashi in exchange for cooperation
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Hiashi creates a new position, called Almostahokage (an Almostahokage has absolute-dictatorship powers unless overruled by the Hokage). Hiashi declares Mari the new Almostahokage. He then resigns as the Hokage, and the Almostahokage promptly dissolves the office of the Hokage while there's no Hokage to overrule her, putting us in charge of Leaf forever.

I'll agree to work with Hiashi if he agrees to follow my brilliant plan there.
 
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