Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
You're correct, but Keiko has sorta let the cat part of the way out of the bag on that.
Im open to (tangible) suggestions.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
You're correct, but Keiko has sorta let the cat part of the way out of the bag on that.
Im open to (tangible) suggestions.
- Location
- Snakesden
[X] Action Plan: Munch Munch Munch
Minor point:
I'm iffy on the way this is phrased. Hana already knows Mari's not doing well, since Keiko and now Hazou have come to talk to her about it. I definitely don't want to leak info on how badly she's doing, but maybe there's a better way to put that?
(Mostly I'm worried that with the "any" it could get interpreted as 'say literally nothing that implies Mari-sensei isn't doing well', which obviously doesn't work.)
edit: oops, ninjad.
Minor point:
I'm iffy on the way this is phrased. Hana already knows Mari's not doing well, since Keiko and now Hazou have come to talk to her about it. I definitely don't want to leak info on how badly she's doing, but maybe there's a better way to put that?
(Mostly I'm worried that with the "any" it could get interpreted as 'say literally nothing that implies Mari-sensei isn't doing well', which obviously doesn't work.)
edit: oops, ninjad.
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- Location
- The state of Paranoia
[X] Action Plan: Munch Munch Munch
That is a wonderful name.
That is a wonderful name.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Yeah.
We could do something like be sad/dissapointed that she put Hazou in a position like this, then segue into how she might have screwed things up pretty majorly as far as Leaf-Mist relations go here: He can't control Keiko's reactions, and if he were in her position, the only thing that would stop him from doing something extreme like getting Hana kicked out of Leaf would be Hazou's relationship with her. He doesn't want tensions to increase, so how're they gonna fix this?
Basically go for the practical reasoning.
- Location
- Potato land
I don't really have any suggestions, because I don't know what we want from this conversation. And also because it's friday night and I'm more than a bit drunk.
What do we want to achieve here? Let Hazou know IC what Hana said to Mari? Make him understand Hana's feelings? Convince her that Mari isn't as bad as she thinks? Browbeat Hana into helping, somehow? I see the all-business approach ("You've fucked this up for me, now help unfuck it.") and the emotional approach ("Mari saved me, but she hasn't replaced you.") as viable, but not at the same time.
- Location
- Snakesden
Covert:
"Beforehand, Hazou talks to Keiko about how much information Hana has about Mari's state, given Keiko's conversation with her. He's careful not to reveal just how incapacitated Mari is."
Sidestep:
jettison the idea of hiding Mari's state, assuming that Hana will be able to infer it from 1) the Keiko convo, 2) Hazou having this convo with her, and 3) the timing of Mari's illness. (As a liaison to Leaf, she's surely keeping tabs on the status of important functionaries. We said Mari was sick at game night; there are probably other social duties she's been too 'sick' to attend.)
"Hazou doesn't go out of his way to emphasize how incapacitated Mari is, but he doesn't avoid implying it. Mom can probably infer as much anyway, [given the above]."
Overt:
"Hazou emphasizes just how badly Mari's been doing since their conversation. Hana might not believe it's real, but she doesn't know Mari the way he does, and she should give her a chance. Not everyone can start off a good person, but it's Hazou believes that lots of people can be, and Mari's trying."
I like Overt, as it's in keeping with Hazou's uplifty spirit, but I think it needs to come once he's not in the same state he finished the last chapter in. If he doesn't go into this convo actually feeling this way about Mari, he could come out of it with even less faith in her. I like the "think about her past" section for this, but I'm not sure it'll be enough. Also, maybe it's bad to be explicit about this stuff to a Mist envoy, even though Momma probably knows.
As such, maybe Sidestep is good for now?
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I think it's best to make her aware of the Hazou's feelings re: the latter approach, but not go into them because the goal here isn't really to manipulate Hana and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't be able to anyway.
The overt approach isn't strictly true. She isn't trying to be a better person -- right now. She was before Hana showed up and fucked everything up. I do LIKE that approach, though.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Ah yes.
>_>
<_<
I'm completely sober.
I think we just want to do this, essentially.
I don't think we'll be able to correctly attack this issue without a bit more IC knowledge.
I don't want to try anything complicated. My mental model of Hana's mental model of Mari is a lying two-faced snake who will do literally anything to get what she wants. Extreme caution would have to be taken to plan an approach that doesn't botch everything up from one perspective or another.
I'm coolsies with a more overt approach on this but we may have to brainstorm just a bit to get the wording down.
Can we do this in a way that doesn't lead Hana to suspect that (Mari is just manipulating us emotionally to get back at Hana) or something?
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Well, does it matter if she does?
Look back at what Keiko said to her before (god, Keiko is so cool):
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Hmm.
Guess not.
Should we preface this with some soppy emotional nonsense so that Hana doesn't feel threatened in her current position as Alpha Mom?
- Location
- Snakesden
Okay, if the idea is just to get Hazou informed, rather than get Hana to do stuff, I see no need to go into Mari's emotional state.
The manipulation thing matters because a) Hana might convince Hazou it's true and b) it's be nice to sow the seeds for a better relationship between them. I don't think he'll be able to do much, but for his own sake he should have counter arguments in mind.
A major piece of evidence is that she's had to cancel a bunch of social things at a time when Jiraiya's Hokageship is in question. I don't really see how the EV works out for Snake!Mari*. she has lots of ways to build the kids' affection/allegiance that don't involve pretending to be sad about a confrontation that none of them knew about before she got sad about it. And much better times to do it.
* not to be confused with Anko.
The manipulation thing matters because a) Hana might convince Hazou it's true and b) it's be nice to sow the seeds for a better relationship between them. I don't think he'll be able to do much, but for his own sake he should have counter arguments in mind.
A major piece of evidence is that she's had to cancel a bunch of social things at a time when Jiraiya's Hokageship is in question. I don't really see how the EV works out for Snake!Mari*. she has lots of ways to build the kids' affection/allegiance that don't involve pretending to be sad about a confrontation that none of them knew about before she got sad about it. And much better times to do it.
* not to be confused with Anko.
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Is this something that Hana could be sufficiently aware of already that we're not giving the Mist Envoy intel on Leaf internal politics?
- Location
- Snakesden
I disagree with plan Copy-Kei, but Soppy Nonsense sounds good for this convo regardless.
Yeah, that's fair. Maybe this is just a point Hazou keeps in his brain, and it comes out as "I think if she were only trying to manipulate me, there'd be more efficient ways to do it, even taking into account that she'd predict I'd think that." And ask her to trust us? Ultimately, that's a lot of what this is about.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Proposed revision of Hana section: C&C please.
Talk with Hana (OPSEC OPSEC!!!)
Talk with Hana (OPSEC OPSEC!!!)
- Hazou will keep in mind:
- Be considerate.
- Hana may or may not be biased towards Mari.
- What did you say to Mari, exactly?
- She is not currently in a state fit to perform her political duties.
- Note: The onus falls on Hazou to take the reigns here.
- If this is some manipulation/meta-manipulation tactic, it benefits no one.
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Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
How about "Mom, Mari has important responsibilities that she's cast aside to wallow in self-pity over whatever you said to her."
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Edits.
I'll be indisposed post 10pm EST so, get your comments in while I'm able to respond
I'll be indisposed post 10pm EST so, get your comments in while I'm able to respond
- Location
- Yes.
I express confusion, and ask for clarification as to how this is hypocritical.
This defintely needs to be phrased better. FMPOV, Hana is going to interpret this as "Mari is throwing a massive hissy fit because I've made her confront her shittiness, which is intended as petty revenge against me by forcing me to make concessions in order to prevent Mari from self-destructing and taking her clan, and therefore Hazou, with her".
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Kagome was literally firmly in the camp of "Blow anyone I don't trust into tiny bloody scraps" before we met him.
Around Chapter ~34 (sometime after the beach episode) we convinced him to maybe not do that as a default, IIRC.
Edits:
- Location
- Yes.
He didn't blow us up immediately, he let us talk a lot. And even before, he only threw explosives when we chased after him (read: the Jonin, Inoue Mari, chased after him), and only threw to kill after it was clear his defensively-used explosives weren't working.
Hana: Mari is a petty, spiteful bitch who would totally fuck herself over in order to fuck other people over. This is entirely in character with my mental model of her.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
This is why she sacrificed herself and was only saved by the graces of Keiko.
- Location
- Yes.
Hana doesn't know that and we can't tell her because it puts us in Hot Springs. Theoretically we could not give details but the Jonin social-spec will see through that, and will likely be obliged to tell her Kagesister. Which puts her in a bind.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Why do we have to tell her literally anything identifiable to Hot Springs?
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
If I edit the Hana conversation in such a way so that we are merely fishing for info instead of actually trying to debate her , would people be satisifed?
I'm tempted to []Looooore Update, but I find that the current plan will accomplish more of our goals if I swap out some of the Hana stuff and go "Literally, the very next day!" in it.
I'm tempted to []Looooore Update, but I find that the current plan will accomplish more of our goals if I swap out some of the Hana stuff and go "Literally, the very next day!" in it.
- Location
- Yes.
It's not that we'd tell her something identifiable, it's that Hana would pick up on the missing bits of the story and figure it out.