On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.
"What sort of Elgi do you take us for, wasting runes on flimsy rings? A proper Dawi work, if it's not an Az, hammer or armor would be a Gromril Belt Buckle! *grumble grumble*"
He might just be completely apoplectic about how many dwarven kingdoms in Middle Earth have been destroyed, and go on a grudge spree to kill every single thing lurking in them, missing out the quest entirely.
This anathema bit, the work of order, explains why it only works for runes, no other Metal. It seems to serve as a sort of stabilizing agent for the powers vested in runes.
Perhaps the Glittering Realm was literally a superbly grand mine of Gromril, and with his unique insight and abilities he perceived more of it than others might have.
It occurs to me a weapon that does for Order what Conduction does for heat would be a pretty awesome weapon against Chaos, but that might be what our antidemon runes are doing already.
This anathema bit, the work of order, explains why it only works for runes, no other Metal. It seems to serve as a sort of stabilizing agent for the powers vested in runes.
Perhaps the Gilded Realm was literally a superbly grand mine of Gromril, and with his unique insight and abilities he perceived more of it than others might have.
I wonder if it might not be some sort of naturally occurring Ordered realm of the Warp. A sort of confluence of forces that all ended up in harmony and stuck that way, a kind of natural Dwarven Webway thing. And its that ordered nature that Dwarves call upon when they perform Runecraft, an inverse of Sorcerers calling upon the chaotic forces of the Warp.
Of course, how this applies to Gromril I'm not sure. Perhaps meteors come from the Warp, and ones with Gromril passed through the Glittering Realm? 🤷♂️
I wonder if it might not be some sort of naturally occurring Ordered realm of the Warp. A sort of confluence of forces that all ended up in harmony and stuck that way, a kind of natural Dwarven Webway thing. And its that ordered nature that Dwarves call upon when they perform Runecraft, an inverse of Sorcerers calling upon the chaotic forces of the Warp.
Of course, how this applies to Gromril I'm not sure. Perhaps meteors come from the Warp, and ones with Gromril passed through the Glittering Realm? 🤷♂️
The Glittering Realm could be Thungni/inside of Thungni. We know that Dwarfs don't tend to the same rules of Warp metaphysics as the rest. But we also know that narrative and stories is how Warp gods are given form. The story of him finding the Glittering Realm could be more a matter of self-exploration or his own soul or some such. The Ancestor Gods themselves are already breaking rules in their existence.
Of course, that would contradict them basically "ascending" instead into godhood as Sigmar did.
I always figured Thrungi just accidentalied his way into the Dawi Realm in the Warp ahead of time. Like he ascended a bit like all the Ancestors and actually comprehended their budding Realm in the Warp...and then proceeded to Dawi over engineer their holy symbols into an entire magic system aka Runes!
I wonder if it might not be some sort of naturally occurring Ordered realm of the Warp. A sort of confluence of forces that all ended up in harmony and stuck that way, a kind of natural Dwarven Webway thing. And its that ordered nature that Dwarves call upon when they perform Runecraft, an inverse of Sorcerers calling upon the chaotic forces of the Warp.
Of course, how this applies to Gromril I'm not sure. Perhaps meteors come from the Warp, and ones with Gromril passed through the Glittering Realm? 🤷♂️
The Glittering Realm could be Thungni/inside of Thungni. We know that Dwarfs don't tend to the same rules of Warp metaphysics as the rest. But we also know that narrative and stories is how Warp gods are given form. The story of him finding the Glittering Realm could be more a matter of self-exploration or his own soul or some such. The Ancestor Gods themselves are already breaking rules in their existence.
Of course, that would contradict them basically "ascending" instead into godhood as Sigmar did.
My current headcanon is that the Glittering Realm is a facet of the metaphysical nature of Order, as manifested in the immaterial and metaphysical nature of The Runes, Gromril, and the Void Gromril meteors come from in the Warp. Not only in the sense that these metaphysics are supported by mortal belief but also because of the atemporal nature of the dark gods and their chaotic nature opposing the Order present in the concepts creating a self-referential loop that makes them persist.
Like an iron splinter shoved into the Warp's gums.
Could be that gromril is compression transitioned warpstone. Slam it into the ground hard enough, a lot of the warpstone will assume a lot of different disordered forms as concentrated magic is wont to do and probably explode, any warpstone which achieved lesser orderly forms will be destroyed by the explosion and the warpstone which transmuted into gromril survives.
In canon WHF a runelord was able to make swords that can permanently kill demons with it being owned and passed down by one of the Elector counts in the Old World. How hard would it be for us to make something like that?
We already permanently broke a Khornate Octet before.
Permanently killing daemons is predicated upon the following:
-Their physical material body is just warpstuff held there by their will.
-Their spiritual essence is just a recursive pattern of ordered chaos, the material doesn't matter, only the 'shape' does. The pattern can heal itself if damaged short of a certain degree.
To really eliminate a Daemon rather than just break their body up, your approach is to do one of the following:
-Transform their spiritual essence into something that's not a daemon.
-Try to damage a pattern which can survive the warp's chaotic forces by disordering it. Just need a lot more bang.
Ah, yet more fuel for my pet theory that gromril is the result of the ordinary rock in meteors somehow shedding its impurities and disorderly bits, which then manifest around the gromril as warpstone.
Yeah I really want to see the end point of this research.
At the moment two possibilities come to mind: First that this Rune will make it possible to create and aura of Order. Not out-and-out direct dispelling magic but it makes it a lot harder for chaotic magics and creatures powered/created by said magics to be present/manifest.
Second like other people have suggested, is to impart Order into a material meaning that the Runes can then work with materals other then gromril.
Yeah I really want to see the end point of this research.
At the moment two possibilities come to mind: First that this Rune will make it possible to create and aura of Order. Not out-and-out direct dispelling magic but it makes it a lot harder for chaotic magics and creatures powered/created by said magics to be present/manifest.
Second like other people have suggested, is to impart Order into a material meaning that the Runes can then work with materals other then gromril.
Actually, perhaps both are possible and one of the Ancestor Gods (likely Thungni or Valaya) has the first? Perhaps that's how he discovered the secrets of Gromril, by working from the opposite direction via delineating from the Orderliness of the Glittering Realm, while were working from the first, smallest bits he pried forth.
Yeah I really want to see the end point of this research.
At the moment two possibilities come to mind: First that this Rune will make it possible to create and aura of Order. Not out-and-out direct dispelling magic but it makes it a lot harder for chaotic magics and creatures powered/created by said magics to be present/manifest.
Second like other people have suggested, is to impart Order into a material meaning that the Runes can then work with materals other then gromril.
In the first case that'd be a modification of the extant Master Rune of Gromril, which would be fun to give a go. My thinking is that it gives Insight into the nature of Gromril such that we can refine it into Adamant, as well as further understanding of how to apply Gromril's anti-Chaos qualities.
You watch bemusedly from the warmth of your coat as your apprentices shiver, their attempts at making a Rune of Warmth clearly not able to handle the cold.
Then again you've got them in just a pair of trousers and a shirt with their runes engraved on it.
What better way to get them motivated than knowing their work is the only thing keeping them warm, and with the Lorekeepers all in agreement about this cold snap not letting up any time soon you had plenty of time to get a barely acceptable rune out of them. While that meant a good many caravans had to transition to their secondary timetable for you it meant your apprentices could be brought out here every three days to see if they've gotten a better rune going!
"Alright beardlings, what have we learned, where do you think you did a shoddy job? I counted at least 15 for each of you, but let's see if you can even get one!" you finally say once half an hour has passed.
Of course you kept an expression stonier than a mountainside the whole time, as was proper, but to your quiet joy, Dolgi managed to label ten of his mistakes and Fjolla got all fifteen.
That you counted against them.
There were a good 40 more undocumented errors you decided to leave for another day, after all. No good if you didn't pace them properly, they wouldn't digest the failure as well and improve near as much as if you made them think they were getting close.
…
You pass by the growing superstructure of the Gromril smelter, the building was at a stage where you could finally get some proper work done. Getting the Runes necessary for Pure Gromril on this scale would be a novel task at the very least.
You were simply itching at the chance to get your hammer and chisel at that smelter.
The dwarfs around you were equally excited, if for admittedly different reasons than you. These past years have turned a project of disparate clans doing their best to up the other into one that only further tightened the bonds made during the Battle at the Dragon's Maw.
Indeed the sight of inter-clan cooperation is evident everywhere. Brewing and Baking clans working together to hand off hearty food to the work crews of not only their family but any they could find. Jeweler Clans cooperating with each other, dividing the work of giving this place a proper dwarfen level of style easily and happily. Smithing clans are already beginning to divy up the times for forging, doing their best to ensure every clan gets the time on the smelter that it deserves.
While a cynical part of you will not that this was simply the consequence of the Dwarfen tendency to coordinate and get things squared away properly and fairly rearing its head, you cannot deny that there is an air of joviality and comradeship beyond the norm. The work is honest, the rivalry friendly, the atmosphere light and busy.
This is perhaps one of the times you've seen your people at their best.
While you doubted the lines of clan would ever truly disappear, nor can you imagine such a world to be frank, at least in this one project dwarfs see themselves as more than just Clan Ironarm, Clan Dromminling, Grimseal or Grimlisson, but as Dwarfs of Kraka Drakk, the Dragon Hold.
Which in its own way, was more of a milestone than any grand building or work of art. It does your heart good to see, dwarfs ought not to fight each other, not when so much of the world wanted you all dead already.
But enough sentimentality, you're in the hold here for another reason, and though you wish to stay a bit longer, you head off into the mail halls proper to meet with the eldest members of the community.
…
The Council Chamber is a spacious room built above the hall that would eventually become the place a King would hold court and rule the hold. As it is, both rooms are rather bereft of the usual decorations the royal clan would put, the only exception being the Skull of the Elder Wyrm, and the(a set) Horns of the Greedy Ones.
Must've broken those off during the battle at some point. While the bastard definitely had horns when you pushed him off the cliff, but then again he was growing limbs in seconds so another set of horns wasn't too outrageous.
But that was neither here nor there, you were here with the elders to discuss a point of importance. That, of course, is the task of finding a Royal Clan to rule the hold once it was properly set up. While you were still a good few decades off from an actual vote, it always paid to start your work early and get ahead.
With you in the council chamber are the oldest dwarfs in the hold. The familiar face of Elder Moira sits to your left, followed by the guildmaster of the Baker's guild of all things, Elder Lofey Oriksson. From the corner, you spotted an Elder Ranger, Brokk True-eyes, nod at you before going back to staring blankly at the assembled group of curmudgeonly dwarfs.
Orri Oakarms, guildmaster of the Carpenter's guild. Their work can be found in many places, the finely made furniture they produce from imported Wutroth being a hot commodity.
Siggrun Frothbraids, a master brewer of Clan Bryggeroot, the ones who supplied every tavern in the hold and ran their own smack dab in the Market District.
Gormak Ironjaw, a truly ancient master smith who moved here from Azul citing his preference for colder climes, and definitely not because his only living descendant and his family moved here. He was rather neutral to the discovery of Gromril, which for a dwarf his age was positively ecstatic.
These and many more, your eyes noting that no dwarf here was less than 600 years old, with the oldest, Master Gormak, being well into his first millennia.
"Rhunrikki, right on time. Cutting it a bit close aren't you beardling?" Elder Moira tuts at you.
You can only apologize and sit down.
"Well then, no need for formalities, I'm sure all of us would like to go back to our jobs as soon as possible, but for the sake of the hold, I'm sure we can all manage this. Leave the ruling to a King so we don't get bothered by so many beardlings is a good trade for our time I'd say," Elder Moira says placatingly
The 'Bah' that many of the ancient dwarfs bark are tinted by grudging agreement.
Time to get to it then.
…
When you leave the chamber the time is a bit past noon, which considering you started at dawn, said much.
The elders had hemmed, hawed and argued with the stubbornness that only the most ancient dwarfs could possess. But eventually, mostly through Elder Moira's calm and peaceful(relative) diplomacy, you'd all gotten a shortlist of possibilities down that you could tolerate.
This was a rough draft, of course, only 200 pages worth of notes really. A number which as any dwarf will tell you, isn't a lot for something this important, but you had decades yet. In short, the discussion boiled down to deciding whether you'd raise a clan in the hold with the prerequisite condition of having Noble Blood to the royal clan or you'd invite a dwarf of good standing and compatible personality from the major holds in the south to become the Royal clan of the hold.
Now using two hundred pages to basically say, "raise someone here or bring in someone" would seem wasteful to a fool.
But to a dwarf, it was simply the necessary level of thoroughness such an important decision required. After all, once a Royal Clan was chosen, they would never leave barring a true tragedy that wiped out the line or act that dishonoured them so thoroughly as to be forced into exile. Thankfully, these all being dwarfs well past a millennium of age, the likelihood of the former far overshadowed the latter.
An actual, formal, vote would happen once the hold was deemed complete, but all of you agreed that wouldn't be for decades at the fastest that was acceptable.
Thankfully these meetings were only per decade, Elder Moira only being able to get these cantankerous living ancestors to stop what they were doing with a large amount of drink and by prodding their sense of duty in such a way that they believed they came to that decision themselves.
That woman was terrifyingly effective.
…
It was on your way back from the meeting that you decided to take a look at the Gromril Mine once again, hoping for some sort of inspiration to take you.
Your hopes weren't high of course, it felt like a once in a lifetime moment that you'd never replicate again. Still, no harm in trying in this case.
It is only when you pass a gaggle of Elderly miners on their lunch break that it happens.
"Never seen stuff this pure before. I'd bet my nice pair of pants that we'll get a maybe a cupful of slag per ingot." one says to his compatriots.
"Hmmph, fine. I'll pay for your drinks for the next two weeks if the ingots only produce a half-a-cupful of slag. You gotta be blind to think it's that impure," the other rounds back.
"Garag, you want in on this? Two weeks' worth of drink and Krimmi's pants on the table," a third miner says.
"No, because you're all daft. I'm telling you this stuff's so pure it'll get maybe a flake of slag per ingot," Garag says with a nod full of conviction.
At his declaration, the rest of the miners break out into good-natured grumbling and declarations of madness.
You, however, have latched on to something.
Purity.
The Master Rune of Gromril demands Pure Gromril, why? Because impure Gromril obviously wasn't as strong as Pure Gromril, but to a runesmith? Pure Gromril, if your theory was correct, would conduct the concept of Order to such a degree that it could enhance the already incredible protective qualities of Gromril beyond what was natural. Which led to another thought.
Warpstone.
Warpstone, that cursed thing, was almost always found near and around Gromril finds. The certainty of which grew with the relative youth of a strike. The oldest and deepest seams had little to none, the youngest were hotbeds of corrosion that needed special gear to clear away before the ore could be got to.
But why?
Why were these two almost paradoxically opposed things found together?
The issue of purity you realize may hold the key.
You run to your workshop, ignoring the surprised yelps of beardlings and grunts of curious Longbeards. You had a lead!
Gain:
- +3 Progress to The Rune Metal Pt2. due to an RER roll.
...
You have (5 - 1) = 4 actions and 1 apprentice action this turn:
General:
[ ] Expanding the Workshop, Protection: You've a workshop and a home fit for a Runelord, but in your mind's eye you see yet more things to do. Any research regarding the Master Runes will require a level of protection that your current facility simply doesn't have. The cost is irrelevant, it is the materials you need that are the true bottleneck. You've got the Gromril and Dragon Blood necessary for the Rune you need now. [Cost: (2-1) =1 actions, -1 vial of Dragon's Blood-]
[ ] Odd Places 1/10: Look on Master Yorri's map and try and discover one of his marked locations. The locations will certainly be odd, but whether they'll be useful will remain to be seen. [Cost: 1 action] Roll for usefulness.
[X] Teach your apprentices. [Cost: 1 Action] Locked in for 8 turns.
Requests: Denote which simple request will receive the Apprentice Action in your plan.
[ ] [Simple] Pure Gromril: Somehow you finagled the clans of the hold to agree to the idea of a communal smelter capable of making Pure Gromril. You've got a decent portion of the work down already, and the clans are pitching in and the structure is beginning to take shape. It is a work of art and craftsmanship as the workers have especially good reason to see a job well done; the smelter will be an engine of great wealth for the hold and clans that use it, and of course to show rivals how their clan is better at this task or other. [Cost: (6-3) =3 actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc.
[ ] [Simple] Runic Warmachines: The Engineer's guild has come to you with a request to improve the hold's war machines with the power of Runes. Their losses at the Battle at the Dragon's Maw is a stinging blow that shames them. Not that any dwarf blames the engineers or claims they didn't do their part, not much can be done when a bunch of daemons spawn on top of your position and destroy your artillery after all, but the event has lit a fire under their collective arses. The previous decade was spent cranking out bolt and grudge throwers by the dozen and what better way to make even deadlier machines than with runes? Well, it's sound logic, runes always make things better. [Cost: 2 actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc.
[ ] [Simple] Defence. In. Depth Pt1: It has finally begun, a concession for getting you involved in this whole business with choosing the hold's new Royal Clan, the hold will implement a strategy of Defence. In. Depth. When planning its permanent defences, which if you were honest wasn't that big a loss for the Hold. With that in mind, such a wonderful piece of work will require a suitably magnificent set of Runes. While someone could never truly have enough defences, building what would eventually be a good seven layers of overlapping kill zones, guard towers and artillery is as good a start as any! [Cost: 2 actions] Productivity Like No Other Will proc.
[ ] [Difficult] Trollslayer Pt. 1: Thane Ironarm has come to you with a simple request. An axe worthy of commemorating the momentous victory at the Dragon's Maw. He trusts you to make an axe worthy of the prospective title Trollslayer, and is willing to wait for the product for however long it takes. After all, how can he not have faith in you after everything that's happened? First, you have to figure out what runes you want on this damn thing. [Cost: 1 action] If a rune you want requires special ingredients that you don't have access to I will alert you. If I am given the choice you won't have to worry about that. A good rule of thumb on if it will likely need ingredients is if it's a Master Rune or it's a rune you've developed and know it will need ingredients you don't have.
- [ ] Choose: choose three runes you want on the weapon.
- [ ] Theme: write in a theme for the weapon. (I will roll to see if you find a new combo)
- [ ] GM: Leave it to the GM. (I will roll to see if you find a new combo)
Research: Your career and your honour demand you hone your craft, and it's usually done through poking at runes and seeing what works.
[ ] The Greedy One's Heart: This thing has been transferred to a warded container because you don't really trust anything that came from that thing. You're all but certain you could make a truly potent Rune of Healing or Fortitude with this thing, but perhaps there are other uses for it you could come up with that a battery of tests could reveal.[Cost: 4 actions.] Student of the Odd will proc
[ ] The Secrets of Light?: That moment with the shield and sunray, the light of your torch glinting off the crystal, both sparked something in your mind. An ember that refused to be burned out. You've done permutations to the standard Rune of Light and a few on Master Yorri's Rune of Reflection, but maybe there could be more?[Cost: (8-2) =6 Actions] Student of the Odd will proc
[ ] The Movement of things: The Rune of Waking or Animation as some would call it is a rare rune. How Master Yorri knows both the regular and Master Rune could be explained by either a harrowing adventure full of terror, beasties and treasure or by something as mundane as asking a friend, you could never be sure with the man. Still, this was a rune that, to your frustration, you haven't had much chance to tinker with. Maybe just a peak? [Cost: 8 actions] Student of the Odd will proc.
[ ] The Rune Metal Pt. 2: You've found a connection between Runes and Gromril, but it feels like just the beginning of something greater. You've found that in a moment of clarity, that Pure Gromril is especially important for the Master Rune of Gromril because of that inherent purity. [Cost: (6-3) =3 Actions] Student of the Odd will proc.
[-] Understand a Master Rune: The same idea as studying any rune in theory, in practice it takes a lot longer and there's often a large chance of explosions. [Cost: 16 actions] Locked due to lack of a proper workshop.
Order: As well as the normal system, I'm willing to experiment with this. You can order 1 Rune's worth of an item a turn but can have as many orders going as you want. I'll ask that you only order if you think you'll use that material for a Rune in the near future and not horde a bunch of materials.
[ ]Write-in:
Remember to vote by plan. There will be a two-hour moratorium for discussion.
For certain, it cannot be mere coincidence that only Gromril can take armor runes, is so receptive to runes in general, and is so closely associated with Thungni's discovery of the Glittering Realm.
[ ] Expanding the Workshop, Protection: You've a workshop and a home fit for a Runelord, but in your mind's eye you see yet more things to do. Any research regarding the Master Runes will require a level of protection that your current facility simply doesn't have. The cost is irrelevant, it is the materials you need that are the true bottleneck. You've got the Gromril and Dragon Blood necessary for the Rune you need now. [Cost: (2-1) =1 actions, -1 vial of Dragon's Blood-]
-[] 1 action
[X] Teach your apprentices. [Cost: 1 Action] Locked in for 8 turns.
Requests: Denote which simple request will receive the Apprentice Action in your plan.
[ ] [Simple] Pure Gromril: Somehow you finagled the clans of the hold to agree to the idea of a communal smelter capable of making Pure Gromril. You've got a decent portion of the work down already, and the clans are pitching in and the structure is beginning to take shape. It is a work of art and craftsmanship as the workers have especially good reason to see a job well done; the smelter will be an engine of great wealth for the hold and clans that use it, and of course to show rivals how their clan is better at this task or other. [Cost: (6-3) =3 actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc.
-[] 2 actions
[ ] [Simple] Defence. In. Depth Pt1: It has finally begun, a concession for getting you involved in this whole business with choosing the hold's new Royal Clan, the hold will implement a strategy of Defence. In. Depth. When planning its permanent defences, which if you were honest wasn't that big a loss for the Hold. With that in mind, such a wonderful piece of work will require a suitably magnificent set of Runes. While someone could never truly have enough defences, building what would eventually be a good seven layers of overlapping kill zones, guard towers and artillery is as good a start as any! [Cost: 2 actions] Productivity Like No Other Will proc.
-[] 1 action + apprentice
how about this?
finish workshop, get gromil flowing, keep prepping defenses
I kind of want to keep on down the research we are doing, which we can do with 3 actions, procing and giving an overflow of 1. That would leave 1 action to finish the workshop protections.
I'd rather get the uses of the Heart NOW before we expand our stuff to do with research too much.
3 will get it done immediately. It's a one of a kind item akin to the Blood of Aenarion or the finger bone of Nagash in rarity. It would make a fine Magnum opus.
Don't get so distracted by what research happens before that you forget about it simply because something else caught your attention for a second. The Heart will pay off much sooner than the Metal.
