...Okay now I'm just upset that you would outright accuse me of lying and then gaslight/strawman me. I literally put up a number of posts and then you literally go and pretend that they I never did with the 'there's perfectly reasonable reasons not to do it like finding the current journeymen sufficient for the story role of bumbling apprentices'. That just feels like a cheap tactic to weaken my argument by ignoring every single point I made and trying to straw man me.
You know one of my main issues with getting apprentices? It's that people keep obsessing about them to the point that they do what you just did and strawman and accuse people that don't want to immediately get apprentices after we let them go.
For gods sake, we had one single turn without apprentices after the incursion. One turn, ONE single turn, ONE BLOODY Turn. And yet just because people would want to wait several turns instead of one they start throwing accusations that they don't want apprentices at all just because we want to wait a few turns. And I'm not really counting the daemon incursion point since we spent most of that time preparing and dealing with said incursion.
Here is the list of things that people keep missing:
1) Research
People said that they would want to wait until we cleared up some research which mostly consists of research we had since the start that we never got around to. I seriously hate that people are straw manning that those that want to put off apprentices to keep doing research forever is flat out wrong on so many levels that it's infuriating. People that want to put off apprentices just want to do some research focus now to do stuff we have been putting off forever like waking, rune and maybe Silver Wultroth research. I mean oh my god, we only cleared out one research from the start, literally one since we didn't finish the light research. And again, it's only been one turn.
2) Actions
It's not just research actions, it's other actions that have us helping the hold that also comes with the problem that it slows down our research. Seriously just look at all the stuff we need to do, for the griffins alone we need to dedicate 3 actions and that's not counting making the kings armor, we just discovered the healing vents that we need to have dug out, make prosthesis for the veteran dwarfs which may take longer if we want to research better one and we have the coming runelord meeting that is taking up an action on it's own. And that's not counting anything else that we may need to do that may further slow research.
3) Apprentices slow down research
It's just a flat out fact and I seriously hate that people keep pretending that it isn't true. Someone literally did the math and said math pointed to apprentices being time intensive. And it's a serious issue if we want to get research done quicker thanks to Snorri's apprentice of the odd and productivity trait. Those traits basically mean that even one single action added to a project multiplies it. Example being in one turn if we were doing two projects we can put 3 actions in one to get 5 actions and 2 in another to get 3 actions. It's extremely simple math that people seem to just flat out ignore and pretend isn't a thing when these arguments pop up.
Honestly though, with all the obsession over getting apprentices to the point that people can't seem to wait a few freaking turns I am seriously getting turned off by the very idea of apprentices. Seriously, is it so hard to wait 3-5 turns to get apprentices every time between sessions?
To be quite honest I haven't been keeping up with thread to the level of depth I used to because it takes too much time. I didn't see them.
I'm sorry that my interpretation of your post upset you, that's my bad.
I remember being involved in the math for the apprentices slowing down research. And yeah they slow down everything, production requests included with research. For the reasons you entail, and raw numbers in general because its harder to do trickle actions with a smaller pool.
Research wise I'm not arguing that what you were saying meant research forever, but simply not getting apprentices again. There's the whole of everything available to us. In terms of clearing research the ones we focused one are chains and my general conclusion on those is already mentioned as well. And your point doesn't negate the issue that research's opportunity cost is basically, expanding capability vs applying capability. I personally prefer the second as a primary focus with research being done on the side up until we clear out the production queue like we've done before and then focus on research. We haven't pulled off that second step that I can recall, but its still my intent. Even without a dedicated chunk of turns its worth noting that we've still progressed in research.
Actions slowing research is honestly not an issue for me as outlined above but even so I've been very onboard with promoting plans that are primarily research such as Movement and its Scaly Cat last vote cycle. The thread clearly wants to research as a whole, that is a primary thing. I don't think spending our research time on the chain researches is efficient if we want to actually clear out our backlog by reducing the number of possible projects, but that's frankly a quibble.
Through all of this I will however maintain that the only means to get apprentices is to keep talking about getting them in a thread this large. Otherwise it falls out of the thread's active thoughts.
Question: What are thoughts on, if Yorri can't be poked to help at all, going all in on Voidstones to get the most out of the coming meeting with the Brotherhood?
Personally its kind of eh. It would probably be worth doing but we might not be able to finish voidstones before the Conclave.
@soulcake is the conclave at the start of the decade or the end? If its at the start of the decade I wouldn't want to give it an attempt.
I do not think anyone ignored it in canon either, the problems of the Time of Woe are systemic to how dwarfs live:
Under Golden Age circumstances dwarfs dwarfs are protected from the dangers of the surface both environmental like Storms of Chaos and military like Beastmen and Greenskins by their choice of living underground. This allows them to great natural choke points at which their endurance and discipline can hold off most foes while the vast Underway allows for reinforcements to be deployed effectively in a way their enemies cannot counter.
The Time of Woe turned that on its head. Underground was no longer safe, Skaven could tunnel right into the soft underbelly of the Karaz Ankor, could cut off communications supply and reinforcements. Their warp-tech brought the environmental dangers of the surface underground also. Add the slow innovation speed and culture of grudges that practically consumes them and you get the cannon death spiral.
The dwarfs did not fall because they did not build enough traps but because the literal and metaphorical center of their race was broken and made unsafe.
Ah I see what you're getting at. Socio-culturally and economically, yeah the Dwarves are still fucked when it comes to the Time of Woes. My point was more getting at that we have defenses built up and the reason behind that is that the Dwarves learned that the Underway isn't safe via Grimnir's own experiences and grumblings, unlike how it was in Canon where they were surprised by undermining from the Skaven.
Rune of Yodeling + Rune of Sound + Rune of Impact.
Thunder Shout
Also known as the Avalanche Rune.
Lol. Another option is Yodeling + Amplification + Impact for a different kind of kick.
I would like to make a formal proposal to possibly end The Great Apprentice War, although it would require
@soulcake's help.
It seems like the general consensus is that Anti-Apprenticers want 3-5 turns of full actions for research and production. Apprenticers just want to ensure that getting new apprentices will not be put off indefinitely.
What I would propose is an officially sanctioned, yes/no mini-vote, on the following:
After forty years have passed in-game, Snorri Gift Giver will spend an action taking on at least one new apprentice.
[] Yes
[] No
This way, the both action and delay are locked-in via
@soulcake, and we can all focus on more immediate things.
Thoughts? This almost certainly won't happen without broad support in thread.
I'm behind that idea.
