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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Is it just me, or does constructing an elaborate fortress-bath-inn at "Valaya's Healing Vents™" (thank you, master Yorri) sound like a worthy future project?
 
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Alratan said:
Runes can apparently do anything, which has made me wonder about resurrection in the past.

Of course, Yorri did ask Snorri in the last update whether his dead wife would want him to keep moping forever...

I can see Snerra becoming a Living Ancestor though.



And then there's variant research like Mind of Things that might also have multiple steps.



If Snorri can improve the rune, it seems like good practice for apprentices.
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It will absolutely have multiple steps yeah. That seems to be the systemic Point of chain research.

DragonParadox said:
Ah right, the Rune of Prosthesis is a simple rune. For some reason I thought it was a Master Rune.
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Yep. I could see a Master Rune of Prosthesis emerging from the pool of runes most closely to Waking, Brotherhood, whatever comes out of the mind of things tree, and the rune of Stone.

Being able to make superlative runic limbs that match the capabilities of even the strongest Longbeards and such with a deftness of motion to make them cry seems reasonable for such a thing.

Hmm. I wonder if it might be useful for making runic armor that is essentially the non mechanical equivalent of power armor. Could probably do that with the Rune of Waking and it'd be more straightforward, or the Master Rune if it was adapted to Armor.


Horium said:
Is it just me, or does constructing an elaborate fortress-bath-inn at "Valaya's Healing Vents™" (thank you, master Yorri) sounds like a worthy future project?
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Nope not just you that definitely sounds like an awesome thing. :D
 
Rule 3: Be Civil
Alratan said:
Yes,. because that's an incredibly inefficient way to go about training apprentices, and doesn't accomplish the long term goal of setting a precedent that runesmiths should take lots of apprentices and having a chain of senior apprentices teaching junior ones. Once you sever the chain it's broken, and there goes a large part of the benefit. That's part of the broader goal of having a revolving stable of apprentices.

Taking a break, particularly century long breaks defeats the point. Apprentices are an end in themselves. They're not just there to do scut work. Even if they couldn't help with any of Snorri's other projects, they're still a productive output.



Absolutely not. A compromise where one side get 100% of what they want some of the time and 80% of what they want the rest of the time while the other side get 0% of what they want some of the time and 20% the rest of the time is not equitable.

Particularly as we're currently possible in a critical formative moment for dwarven runesmiths of the north. Putting teaching apprentices off until after the moment has passed is also not anything resembling a compromise.
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Dude, you are just hurting your arguments with how insanely unreasonable you are. You talk about compromise but you absolutely refuse to do so. Further not helped in that you pretty much refuse to listen and see things from other perspectives. You refuse to accept the simple fact that people are just not really wanting to heavily focus on politics since that is not what this quest is about and your obsession with it just feels like chores/work for people which kind of defeats the reason people go on quests which is to have fun.

You are acting like a massive hypocrite complaining about about compromise and yet complaining about people not doing everything the way you want. Everyone else may disagree on things but at least most everyone here is trying to come up with a compromise unlike you.
 
Alratan said:
Yes,. because that's an incredibly inefficient way to go about training apprentices, and doesn't accomplish the long term goal of setting a precedent that runesmiths should take lots of apprentices and having a chain of senior apprentices teaching junior ones. Once you sever the chain it's broken, and there goes a large part of the benefit. That's part of the broader goal of having a revolving stable of apprentices.

Taking a break, particularly century long breaks defeats the point. Apprentices are an end in themselves. They're not just there to do scut work. Even if they couldn't help with any of Snorri's other projects, they're still a productive output.
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And this argument right here is why I personally dislike the apprentices, maybe not dislike but don't really trust people arguing for apprentices, because a decent portion of people or at least just Alratan wants to have apprentices continuously because they seem to assume that if we never stop having apprentices we will effectively change the entirety of Runesmith culture, which is a point I seriously doubt, and there is no proof it would have any such effect.

All this by the way because literal millennia from now the time of Woe happens, and some elder Runesmiths in canon, like Kragg don't have an apprentice, which we are apparently assuming we can fix by never not having an apprentice thus changing the entirety of perhaps the most individualistic guild in the Dawi empire, simply because of apprentice spam, like seriously are we actually expected to believe this argument? For all we know there is a current Runelord that always has apprentices. Thungni has taken a bunch of apprentices, having an apprentice is already a part of runesmith culture, and is a central part of dwarf culture.

Even given what I argued above and the fact that the majority of this quest we have had an apprentice, either this turn or the next at the latest ( we might want to spam more research, if Yorri is still around or go all in on voidstones in prep for meeting the Brotherhood) I want to take an apprentice because ignoring all the other stuff I do enjoy reading about apprentices, and I think it is would be thematically appropriate for the last Runelord of the North to take an apprentice following a literal apocalypse.
 
BungieONI said:
Hmm. I wonder if it might be useful for making runic armor that is essentially the non mechanical equivalent of power armor. Could probably do that with the Rune of Waking and it'd be more straightforward, or the Master Rune if it was adapted to Armor.
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I imagine that proper power armour would require a variant of the Rune of Prosthesis. It would be nice if it did.

Now we have the Mind of Things research chanin, and can see paths to improve Movement of Things, I'm much happier to make a super-gronti with the Heart. I wonder if we could get a T5 brain at some point for whatever comes from the Mind of Things, as that seems like a potential ingredient.

I'm also wondering about whether we're eventually going to unlock a 'Soul of Things' variant research path here as well.

Red Bovine said:
Dude, you are just hurting your arguments with how insanely unreasonable you are. You talk about compromise but you absolutely refuse to do so. Further not helped in that you pretty much refuse to listen and see things from other perspectives. You refuse to accept the simple fact that people are just not really wanting to heavily focus on politics since that is not what this quest is about and your obsession with it just feels like chores/work for people which kind of defeats the reason people go on quests which is to have fun.

You are acting like a massive hypocrite complaining about about compromise and yet complaining about people not doing everything the way you want. Everyone else may disagree on things but at least most everyone here is trying to come up with a compromise unlike you.
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Do I have to quote soulcake about what a runelord's responsibilities are again? Snorri is a runelord. Broader strategic concerns than just hiding in a cave come with the territory.

I'm not suggesting we dedicate ourselves 100% to training apprentices. I'm proposing we spend a small fraction of our time, a consistent 20%, on the job. We'd still be spending more time on research and crafting than apprentices. What the problem is that you want complete victory, to spend long periods with no effort invested in apprentices whatsoever.

What's being proposed are compromises to the same degree as it would be a compromise to commit to not doing any research or crafting anything for five turns would be.

Nothing about how the apprentices have been presented have been a chore. By contrast, having a broad range of things happening every turn makes the quest more interesting in my, and I think quite a few other people's opinion. It's nice to have pocket gravel rather than just being a shut in as has happened when Snorri has previous focused a turn on research or production.

kobo said:
And this argument right here is why I personally dislike the apprentices, maybe not dislike but don't really trust people arguing for apprentices, because a decent portion of people or at least just Alratan wants to have apprentices continuously because they seem to assume that if we never stop having apprentices we will effectively change the entirety of Runesmith culture, which is a point I seriously doubt, and there is no proof it would have any such effect.
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Not the entirety of runesmith culture, but the local reunesmith culture where Snorri is currently the only Runelord on the ambitious end, and simply changing the culture of his own apprentices at the small end. We've already seen how Snorri has shifted the culture of the Kraka Drakk runesmiths to be slightly more cooperative so we know this kind of change is possible. It may turn out not to be possible, but thinking we can achieve things is a lot more fun and interesting than assuming we can't without trying.
 
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It might suck AP wise but I can genuinely see Runesmiths taking cues from Snorri here. If, after this great tragedy he starts churning out journeyman every 100-160 turns? A lot of Runesmiths would take that as what they should do and it would go a decent way to get the numbers of Runesmiths/Runelords back to where they were.

Sure, some knowledge is definitely lost until those holds are retaken and even still probably then, but pumping out apprentices/journeyman should at least get the numbers back up there in a thousand years. Especially if like we think, Snorri would be the impetus that other Runesmiths take their cues from.

Now, on another note, will we take the rock of Grimnir with us to the moot? Just to let other rune lords bask in it and get the rune in their memory so that they can make it themselves?
 
So, here's me pitching out another item idea that we could eventually do with what we have now, or could have with a little effort.

A banner to remember the sacrifice that Grimnir did and to allow others to fight with a bit of his skill and endurance. Essentially the Master Rune of Grimnir, Rune of Battle, and Rune of the Valiant made with the feathers of the KotS, a pole of adamant, and the hide of a frost wyrm. I think it would be some cool synergy between what the Master Rune of Grimnir does and the rune of battle and rune of the valiant. Add in the top tier ingredients and it should be a potent banner for a Throng to fight under.
 
BungieONI said:
Through all of this I will however maintain that the only means to get apprentices is to keep talking about getting them in a thread this large. Otherwise it falls out of the thread's active thoughts.
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I'm skeptical of this. It feels like it's the opposite to me. The running undercurrent of the thread at most/all times seems to be "oh gee I love apprentices", and the concept of not having them is something that has to be fought for to bring into view. Perhaps that's a function of us being on roughly opposite sides of the debate.

BelligerentGnu said:
I would like to make a formal proposal to possibly end The Great Apprentice War, although it would require @soulcake's help.

It seems like the general consensus is that Anti-Apprenticers want 3-5 turns of full actions for research and production. Apprenticers just want to ensure that getting new apprentices will not be put off indefinitely.

What I would propose is an officially sanctioned, yes/no mini-vote, on the following:

After forty years have passed in-game, Snorri Gift Giver will spend an action taking on at least one new apprentice.

[] Yes
[] No

This way, the both action and delay are locked-in via @soulcake, and we can all focus on more immediate things.

Thoughts? This almost certainly won't happen without broad support in thread.
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This is my preferred solution.

Alratan said:
I'm not suggesting we dedicate ourselves 100% to training apprentices. I'm proposing we spend a small fraction of our time, a consistent 20%, on the job. We'd still be spending more time on research and crafting than apprentices. What the problem is that you want complete victory, to spend long periods with no effort invested in apprentices whatsoever.

What's being proposed are compromises to the same degree as it would be a compromise to commit to not doing any research or crafting anything for five turns would be.
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Okay, I think I get how you're seeing this.

This argument only works if what you truly want is every action being spent on apprentices every turn. And uh, I doubt that. What you're wanting is apprentices every turn, yes? That's 100% of what you want, one action on apprentices every turn. Therefore, apprentices not being present for a few turns after having spent a bunch of time with them is a compromise, but not a "0% of what I want" compromise.

He's also not arguing in favour of doing more crafting and research. He's arguing against apprentices, because he doesn't want them every turn. Therefore, apprentices all the time would be 0% of what he wants.

Does this make sense? Because this is where other people are coming from on this. And it's making you look hypocritical yourself, demanding everything you want while accusing others of doing the same.
 
Fezzes said:
I'm skeptical of this. It feels like it's the opposite to me. The running undercurrent of the thread at most/all times seems to be "oh gee I love apprentices", and the concept of not having them is something that has to be fought for to bring into view. Perhaps that's a function of us being on roughly opposite sides of the debate.
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This is a conclusion of mine driven from experience in a lot of big threads like Paths of Civilization back in the day or Divided Loyalties more recently. The fire of the moment/crisis of the day is extremely in focus, basically by nature of how narratives must be presented and threads follow that focus with a great deal of energy.

Apprentices are by structure, not relevant to the fire of the day except in whether or not the fire of the day precludes getting them or if we already have them and the fire of the day can be moved towards being solved with Simple requests. In many ways, a side thing from a structural perspective, if not necessarily a desire perspective.

So, as a general thing in my mind to keep a side thing like this regardless of what it is you need to argue for it such that it surpasses the fire of the day so that getting them actually happens.
 
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BungieONI said:
This is a conclusion of mine driven from experience in a lot of big threads like Paths of Civilization back in the day or Divided Loyalties more recently. The fire of the moment/crisis of the day is extremely in focus, basically by nature of how narratives must be presented and threads follow that focus with a great deal of energy.

Apprentices are by structure, not relevant to the fire of the day except in whether or not the fire of the day precludes getting them or if we already have them and the fire of the day can be resolved with Simple requests. In many ways, a side thing from a structural perspective, if not necessarily a desire perspective.

So, as a general thing in my mind to keep a side thing like this regardless of what it is you need to argue for it such that it surpasses the fire of the day so that getting them actually happens.
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That's fair and makes sense. I'm still not sure how strongly I agree with the philosophy applying in this instance, but it certainly makes sense to me. I'm skeptical mostly because from my experiences SV has a history of usually going for "family values" type things, which apprentices fall under. So I assume it's on the minds of most voters anyway, that they want apprentices.
 
Horium said:
Is it just me, or does constructing an elaborate fortress-bath-inn at "Valaya's Healing Vents™" (thank you, master Yorri) sound like a worthy future project?
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I think that if a dwarf is injured enough to need the healing water, then they probably would need to have an extended stay at the Temple of Valaya rather than trekking to a far off location. Now a general hotsprings business, I think would be a good idea.
 
I'm very new so I have to say a lot of the trends and such being discussed here go over my head but I can see how they'd affect how people view things. At most my take on things is trying to have a balanced approach overall as extremes rarely goes well.
 
Fezzes said:
Ye. Almost everyone in the discussion is, including me. The bit I quoted was responding to Red Bovine, though.
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I don't get why people keep acting that the people that don't want apprentices at every single turn are lumped in with the anti apprentice group. In reality there are three groups: those that want apprentices as much as possible, those that don't want apprentices at all, and those that wouldn't mind getting apprentices but would prefer a short period without them to get a lot more research done to be able to get more of it done.

I don't understand why that's so hard to understand.
 
For me, there it´s three alternatives for the apprentices going on.

- NEVER! no apprentices here!

- Wait for it, give us 5 turns without them to enjoy the research

- Give me a beardling, NOW! ALWAYS!

I think if we want to compromise first we need to know the opinions of the people, and these three options lets us know. If the people want to vote, i will post in two days how many for every option, and if most of the people want one of the options, that´s it, but no more lobbying for or against it, it´s boresome to read every day the same arguments.

For me, i preffer - Give me a beardling, NOW! ALWAYS! i enjoy reading about it, and it lets still 4 free actions.
 
soulcake said:
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Titles: Ruby-head, Crank-arm, Sky-Armourer, The Undaunted, Griffonfriend
Age: 230 Years by Dwarf reckoning
Specialties: Weapon Runes, Engineering Runes.
Description: By the reckoning of the average dwarf Dolgi is shy of reaching the vaunted rank of Longeard, his floor-length ruby beard at leat meeting the physical criteria. To you, hes still a beardling, regardless of the silver streaks running down his beard. Your teaching and time have beaten the shyness out of him, leaving a naturally quiet and hardworking individual. While he looks lacklustre compared to your other apprentices, it pays to remember Dolgi is well above average in terms of skill and talent. Only looking worse when compared to an actual prodigy. Where his talent falters he, like you, makes up for it in determination and consistent effort. It seems he's taken more and more after you than you previously imagined as well. Lad's taken to wearing a cloak of Griffon Feathers, given as gifts from the Griffons he's armed.
Deeds:
Epic Deed: The Arming of the Skies[/SPOILER]
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Dolgi...what have you been up to mah boy?! This is certainly a welcome change to the character sheet
 
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