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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Garlak said:
I feel like the problem is that we can't just make and give him Legendary armor; because it falls afoul of the "don't value my work as less than it actually is" thing (damn I wish I can track down the specific post that had this phrase, because I think I butchered it a bit). Namely, the problem is that... you have to get paid for your work, you have to be valued for it. It would be weird if Snorri just made the armor first. Especially since, furthermore, the King of the Sky himself said "Ask me to do something, and I will do it." So it's also his pride on the line too.

It feels like a Catch-22! We want to make the armor. But we kind of can't. And we fear the Dragon Ogre Shaggoths as being a natural predator of the Griffons...

So, here's my proposal:

We take the "Boon from the Sky" action this turn. We ask the King of the Skies to go kill Kholek Suneater.

[ ] Boon from the Sky: Write-in what you want from the King of the Skies. He can do a lot but be reasonable. In exchange, he expects a suit of armour. [Cost: Start Request, [Difficult] Plated Skies Pt. 1:] No Time Limit

And we make sure to arm him with a talisman that feeds on lightning, so that he can kill a Dragon Ogre Shaggoth safely.
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We should be able to specify a desire for something that may take a while because the Sky King did not give a limit in terms of "It must be something I can do in a decade", and then build him armor that he can use with the expectation that he will pay up by completing that favor or task. That balances the scales and Dwarfs are patient. It's the same sort of dynamic as Otrek has taken upon himself of his own free will except for the Sky King it has an end

Making the armor first, what he asked of us, while telling him a favor that we want him to do is more like trusting him to not run out on his end of the deal, if you see what I mean? An extended hand of trust in essence going "Yeah I think you're reliable enough to do this thing and pay me back for it".
 
To be perfectly frank, I'm pretty sure we've never got "good value", for any work we've done so far in the quest; Like, theoretically if we cash in all the favours that a work generates, and enjoy the standing it produced we'd do so, but I'm personally not sure we've ever done that or even if we could roll the favour count down to 0, given how we operate.
 
kobo said:
We already made weapons for the throng iirc. It was noted during the Grimnir campaign that the Kraka Drakk throng was a very well runed force
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On the other hand, Kraka Drakk's been picking up a lot of refugees, and one of the reasons the Norse Dwarfs canonically survived was because survivors from fallen Holds were able to contribute to the defense of those deeper in. So we might end up having a Request to get the combat-capable refugees equipped up to Kraka Drakk standards.
 
tri2 said:
wonder if we can make something to absorb all the lighting from the area or even directly from the dragon ogres or whatever energy that boosts them?
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A Talisman or Armor with a Rune of Lightning on it, probably. That's my guess.

Sourced from the "Rune of Shocking" on the excel sheet, the Warmachine rune which gives the warmachine shocking attacks. And from how soulcake said that the Rune of the Furnace, the fire-proofing rune, becomes a "fiery attacks" rune when placed on a different form/shape. We have fire-affiliated runes that can defend against fire; and which on a weapon will deal fire damage. So it seems reasonable to assume that elemental runes, playing around with them, you can get "element-strike" or "element-proof." Kind of like a Final Fantasy game I guess, heh.

We know that elemental runes have "inflict this element" or "defend from this element" effects, and that which one it is depends on the particular type of rune and where it's placed. Weapon runes, and warmachine runes, being the ones most likely to be the offensive version because of course. That means armor and talisman would likely be defensive ones.
TehChron said:
Thats the various Workshopped armor combos featuring Spelleater.
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Again, I fear that Spelleater won't work like that. Firstly, because Spelleater/break/bind runes? Are Runesmith/Runelord-only runes. They are runes useable only by Runesmiths. But, okay, let's assume that we can just give it anybody and it'll work. This still has some issues, because... they are dispel-like runes.

"This rune makes Runesmiths and Runelords almost invulnerable to magical attacks." The mechanics goes on to say 'like Rune of Spellbreaking, but also the wizard loses the spell on a D6 roll.' It's also a 'Runesmiths/Runelords only' rune.

The Rune of Spellbreaking says this: "Once a Runesmith has mastered the Rune of Warding he will learn this more complex rune." The mechanics of it say 'Runesmiths/Runelords only.' 'one use only', 'will stop enemy magic instantly' and 'can automatically dispel one enemy spell.' ((The Rune of Warding just gives Magic Resistance, in 6th. In 8th, it gives a Ward Save.))

So, these are "hose enemy spellcasting" runes. But, okay, you can interpret it as the fluff makes it sound like it might work on supernatural magical energies in general right? Well maybe but... that's uncertain isn't it. (Also, Runesmith/Runelord-only.) So let's think.

Will this work on the "Lord of the Storm" ability, which shoots lightning at enemies? Possibly, yes! It's a pretty blatant magical ability, so... it might count as a spell maybe?

Will it absorb all lightning strikes in an area? Will it absorb or prevent the Griffon's own electric attacks from hitting the Dragon Ogre Shaggoth? Likely not! Which is my worry; it'll do nothing to prevent the King of the Skies from powering up the Dragon Ogre Shaggoth.

You would probably want a Lightning rune in there, if you want the array to eat lightning and not just enemy spells. That's why I've been monofocusing on the Lightning rune as you so called it yesterday (whereas it sometimes feels like you've been monofocusing on the line of 'Spell-' runes) and have been so antsy and nervous about this. Because I want to make a way to address all the lightning. Both the Griffon's and the Dragon Ogre Shaggoth's.
 
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EVA-Saiyajin said:
Red, I'm honestly getting pretty exasperated.

Make the armor now, don't make weapons, don't use the heart for him, keep him alive, he's gonna die if he doesn't get equipment right freaking now, don't give him the best, we need him able to defeat Kholek; you're not being consistent, and you've been missing points, and honestly you're coming off pretty strong.

Please just, tone it down a little?

Besides, this is as much about using the heart for our benefit in this war of survival as it is being nice to the KotS. I want to make something awesome to benefit us now, not later.
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I'm pretty sure I've been consistent with the whole 'let's not go ridiculously overboard with making stuff'. Such examples as me being against making a Golem that's ridiculously big to spending a ridiculous amount of time to get enough Adamant to make a giant Golem out of it to being against experimenting with rune combos. As in I pointed out that the problem relying too much on combos in that we may potentially end up wasting a ton of turns trying to find rune combos, especially armor combos. Even before the Sky Kings armor came up I was expressing reservations about the testing due to the reasons mentioned.

As for me being against using the heart it's due to it being a T5 Material and literally one of a kind. And long term I expect us to run into more situations like this hence why when it comes to the more irreplaceable and/or at stupidly rare materials that we save those for the best projects. Example being that I was against using the Adamant bars for boosting runes since it would be more practical to make arms and armor out of them.
 
Harried said:
To be perfectly frank, I'm pretty sure we've never got "good value", for any work we've done so far in the quest; Like, theoretically if we cash in all the favours that a work generates, and enjoy the standing it produced we'd do so, but I'm personally not sure we've ever done that or even if we could roll the favour count down to 0, given how we operate.
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Theoretically we can cash in favors to do more stuff but people seems to forget that, I don't know why. we can literally ask people to do stuff we don't have time to do or ask for stuff we don't have and we can use favors for the king to cash in favors from southern Hold to send help or make anti-demon Artifacts to help the northern holds.
 
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Keeper of Dreams said:
Theoretically we can cash in favors to do more stuff but people seems to forget that, I don't know why. we can literally ask people to do stuff we don't have time to do or ask for stuff we don't have and we can use favors for the king to cash in favors from southern Hold to send help or make anti-demon Artifacts to help the northern holds.
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I mean, people 'forget' about it because there aren't any examples of it in the pre-written turn actions, so if you're drawing a plan up and think "ooh, this might be a cool way to spend some favours to advance our goals" you run into the problem of it never being done before as a write-in; do you ask soulcake if we can get the King to increase wurtroth tarrifs, or is that no bueno? How much is thing worth again, 10, 20, or 50 favours? When does favour exchange turn into nastily leveraging our relationships selfishly?

At which point people in the thread start arguing that this isn't politician quest, make with the hammer smashy already; so one might drop the idea of writing in a favour spend to save effort, and the Favour Mountains grow higher and higher...
 
Actually, thinking about things...

Since we have a specific and notable culprit, a specific individual responsible for the fall of a Hold or multiple holds... And since we probably are going to learn about this Monster commander, when the refugees make it...

... Do we have a new Grudge again?

Not a personal one from Snorri perhaps. But one for Kraka Drakk, and the North, as a whole. Though the Trolls weren't a personal one either; they predated on traders coming to Kraka Drakk, and stealing Dwarf equipment. So. Snorri might take it personally too. After all, who knows if Kholek caused the ruination of several runic artifacts -- banners, weapons, armor -- in his sieges?

First, it was the Trolls of the Northern Pass... now, it is going to be Kholek's horde, fall of a hold, siege of an Underway, ruination of artifacts?
 
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Huh, to be honest I'm a bit surprised we haven't already got a grudge against chaos, or Kholek more specifically.

...I'm thinking that if the crit-fail hadn't been nullified by KotS then we'd have had a grudge against that Elder Ice Wyrm.
 
Garlak said:
Actually, thinking about things...

Since we have a specific and notable culprit, a specific individual responsible for the fall of a Hold or multiple holds... And since we probably are going to learn about this Monster commander, when the refugees make it...

... Do we have a new Grudge again?

Not a personal one from Snorri perhaps. But one for Kraka Drakk, and the North, as a whole. Though the Trolls weren't a personal one either; they predated on traders coming to Kraka Drakk, and stealing Dwarf equipment. So. Snorri might take it personally too. After all, who knows if Kholek caused the ruination of several runic artifacts -- banners, weapons, armor -- in his sieges?

First, it was the Trolls of the Northern Pass... now, it is going to be Kholek's horde, fall of a hold, siege of an Underway, ruination of artifacts?
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Hm. You think it would be possible to make gauntlets for the Sky King with some number of "Grudge rune: Target Kholek" on them?
 
Harried said:
I mean, people 'forget' about it because there aren't any examples of it in the pre-written turn actions, so if you're drawing a plan up and think "ooh, this might be a cool way to spend some favours to advance our goals" you run into the problem of it never being done before as a write-in; do you ask soulcake if we can get the King to increase wurtroth tarrifs, or is that no bueno? How much is thing worth again, 10, 20, or 50 favours? When does favour exchange turn into nastily leveraging our relationships selfishly?

At which point people in the thread start arguing that this isn't politician quest, make with the hammer smashy already; so one might drop the idea of writing in a favour spend to save effort, and the Favour Mountains grow higher and higher...
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Yeah I can see that as a big problem, when you don't have options to cash in favors or any Idea how to do it, then again Its kinda half our faults for not using it and the other for not having a lot of options to spend it on.
 
I just had a thought:
Right now the king has a greatweapon with Meteorfall, a cloak with Pyrestrike, and armor with no combo.

He's one runic combo short of a set of 3 combos, and all he has left is a Talisman slot.

We should make him a Legendary Talisman to complete the set.

Here's my suggestion:
Master Rune of Spite, Rune of Furnace, Rune of Spelleating

We already have the component for it.
It'd be 1 AP for design, and 1 AP for crafting, so this very turn we could dump 3 AP on it and get + 3 Overflow out of it. Spend 1 Adamant, T4 is likely.

If you want to affect the outcome of the siege and ensuing boss fight, that plus finishing the Banner with 2 AP is the best way I think.
 
Enthusiast#117 said:
@soulcake
The Griffon's equipment slots:
If we make something just for the Armor Slot, is our job done?

If we also make something for the weapon slots, given that on a griffon that would also take the form of armor, would we be overreaching, giving him something he doesn't want and didn't ask for?

If we do make something for the Weapon slots, are the 2 Weapon slots divided between Claws/Wings, Left/Right Claws, Front/Back Claws?

Could we squeeze a Talisman into the order as a Helmet without upsetting anyone?

Also, presuming we end up with 4 slots we decide to fill, could we deliver them one at a time as we finish them? Or must we finish all we set out to do before handing them over?

Lastly, so long as we've agreed on a price, must we receive payment before handing it over, or can we give him the armor and then have him use it to retrieve our payment?
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IF you give him something for his armour slot the job is done.

Presumably, itd take longer to Rune his armour if it required wepaons, and no he wouldn't find it overreaching.

Don't think too hard about it, If its obviously two very distinct weapons then they'll count separately. Gauntlets or wing plates would count as one piece together unless you specify that each "half" of those has a different effects.

The only one getting upset about getting more stuff is your action economy.

If you make it 4 items you won't give him those items until all 4 are done. If you do 4 separate requests then you could drip feed them like that yes.

Once you tell him, he'll try and do it. If you finish the armour before him nothing bad happens, it just means you don't get your reward till he's done.

Garlak said:
We know that elemental runes can either inflict their element -- usually on a weapon, or a warmachine -- or protect from their element. (Yes, I know that I was chattering about getting this on the armor, but... needs must. And a talisman is faster to craft. And this way, we get to actually use the "Boom from the Sky" and get the breathing room available to make the super armor we want to make.) @soulcake can you confirm whether Runesmiths can choose whether armor/talisman/whatever runes will be a "protects from X element" or a "inflicts X element strike if you hit the wearer" when they craft the runes? Or at least, confirm whether the Lightning rune on talismans (and armor) will be defensive?
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There are Runes to resist elements yes, insulating Runes are derived from that very concept.

As an aside, you aren't hearing much news from the south because Snorri isn't keeping an ear to the south. On account of you know, holing yourself up in the workshop for decades. >_>
 
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@soulcake
Can you add in Options to spend Favors on that would help a lot in making plans and not hoarding favors gives us more incentive to make minor or major runed equipment for someone in order for something in exchange.
 
soulcake said:
There are Runes to resist elements yes, insulating Runes are derived from that very concept.

As an aside, you aren't hearing much news from the south because Snorri isn't keeping an ear to the south. On account of you know, holing yourself up in the workshop for decades. >_>
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That's not how that's supposed to work, we're the super special player character. We should know everything immediately! :V

On a serious note, kinda worth it. The South is probably also suffering, probably less than the North because they've been established longer.

But the North has fancy new Legendary gear to show for our suffering. What have they done huh? Nothing, that's what. Ignore the fact we haven't got news. :V
 
@soulcake I gotta ask, OOC, on a scale of 1-10 how much of an ABSOLUTE DUNK did Snorri give the Brotherhood of Dron, first sending the Adamant Bar down south, and then making an entire Adamant Armor Set for his king just a decade or two later?
 
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Alright, so working this through step by step:

I agree with the folks who argue that we really don't have time to waste in getting the KotS his armor. This isn't necessarily out of hope that he'll kill the suneater in just the armor, but more to make certain that he survives the encounter. If he lives another turn, we can get him weapons and a talisman later.

So the next question is, what purpose do we want the armor's runes to serve? As I see it, there's two factors to consider there. The first is KotS's weaknesses. The main one as I see it is magic; KotS has already demonstrated he has ridiculous physical regenerative abilities given that he ripped his own heart out. There's also been a lot of debate about lightning, but I'd argue that if KotS can use lightning as a weapon, he's probably pretty strong against it defensively. The main problem with centering the armor against magic defense is, as Gorlak puts it:

Garlak said:
Spelleater/break/bind runes? Are Runesmith/Runelord-only runes.
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Which puts a bit of a damper on things. @soulcake, is this the case by your ruling?

If we can't go for magic defense, that leaves either making a generic defensive rune array (something like Master Gromril, Fortitude, Preservation), a generic offensive rune array (Impact, Speed, Cleaving?), or to bring in factor two, which is potential set bonuses.

Now I know getting a set bonus is unlikely, but I do like the idea of at least trying for one. And if we're going to do that, we need to decide on an overall theme. Two possibilities I'd suggest would be either "Unstoppable Dive Bomber" or "Daemon Slayer"

With the Unstoppable Dive Bomber, we could do something like,

Armor: Impact, Speed, Cleaving (A charge that cuts through the warrior's enemies)
Weapon 1: Master Rune of Smiting, Striking, Might (A warrior whose blows cannot be stopped)
Weapon 2: Master Rune of Currents, Speed, Parrying (An whirlwind of deadly blades)
Talisman: Master Rune of Dismay, Gazul, Grimnir (Death comes to his enemies on swift wings)

Whereas with Daemon Slayer, it'd look more like this:

Armor: Master Rune of Gromril, Rune of Grimnir, Rune of Valaya (The wearer of this armor stands with the dwarves against Chaos)
Weapon 1: Master Rune of Smiting, Daemon Slaying, Striking (No daemon may stand beneath his blows)
Weapon 2: Master Rune of Currents, Daemon Slaying, Might (His strength is beyond the reach of Daemons)
Talisman: Master Rune of Purification, Rune of Grungni/Gazul, Daemon Slaying/Grimnir (Chaos shall fail before him)

Thoughts?
 
Our massive Gromril deposit is probably why we could do it so fast.

Note that a T3 Material, Pure Gromril, needs enough to make a forge for Adamant in our method. It's disgustingly expensive, were we not owner of a Gromril Mine.
 
Keeper of Dreams said:
Theoretically we can cash in favors to do more stuff but people seems to forget that, I don't know why. we can literally ask people to do stuff we don't have time to do or ask for stuff we don't have and we can use favors for the king to cash in favors from southern Hold to send help or make anti-demon Artifacts to help the northern holds.
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Again, why do you think the King wouldn't have already done this if he thought it was necessary? People really need to quit it with the SV competency thing and realize that people besides the PC of the quest can be competent.
Harried said:
I mean, people 'forget' about it because there aren't any examples of it in the pre-written turn actions, so if you're drawing a plan up and think "ooh, this might be a cool way to spend some favours to advance our goals" you run into the problem of it never being done before as a write-in; do you ask soulcake if we can get the King to increase wurtroth tarrifs, or is that no bueno? How much is thing worth again, 10, 20, or 50 favours? When does favour exchange turn into nastily leveraging our relationships selfishly?

At which point people in the thread start arguing that this isn't politician quest, make with the hammer smashy already; so one might drop the idea of writing in a favour spend to save effort, and the Favour Mountains grow higher and higher...
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Definitely going to have to agree with that. In regards to the favors imagine that they can be used for things like getting materials that would normally be impossible including gaining new runes from other runesmiths.
 
Keeper of Dreams said:
@soulcake
Can you add in Options to spend Favors on that would help a lot in making plans and not hoarding favors gives us more incentive to make minor or major runed equipment for someone in order for something in exchange.
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You know, the problem with the Runemasters is that they are both secretive to the point of OCD, plus they are incredible proud of their work as artisans and thus incredibly unlikely to leave any part of a project in the hands of a stanger...

Taking this things into account it is completely OOC for us to use favors to make the research and the projects, because Snorri would want to do it all by himself, he could, at most, do comissions or joint research with one of his closest friends or his old apprentices...

But to be fair @soulcake I think that the favor system needs some tweaking, because as it is now we are only getting reagents out of it, and it seems a very limited and niche mechanic.
 
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