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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Also something that I noted that people seem to be forgetting that the Sky King literally has a Talisman created by the Ancestors themselves with the QM strongly implying that it does a lot more than just translate things. That alone would probably seriously boost his odds against Kholek and is definitely way better than anything we can make.
 
Also something that I noted that people seem to be forgetting that the Sky King literally has a Talisman created by the Ancestors themselves with the QM strongly implying that it does a lot more than just translate things. That alone would probably seriously boost his odds against Kholek and is definitely way better than anything we can make.
Yeah but he has 1 Talisman slot and 1 Banner/Talisman slot, and I can't picture a Griffon with a cape.

He can wear 1 more talisman.
 
There is room for another. Talisman. But if people are adamantly against it...

Counterpoint than. Use it in a Rune or Fortitude for the armor of the King of the Skies.
 
Hmm, a long term work..

Rework the Miner into looking like Grungni the Ancestor God of Mining.
The Warrior can be shaped into Grimnir's likeness as the Ancestor God of Warriors (at this point and Slayers in the near future).
Ranger... I am drawing a blank. If this was time of woe I'd easily suggest Grombrindal. He's about as close as we'd get.
The Smith could easily be shaped into Smednir's image.
The Priest could maybe be Valaya?
Its worth noting that "The Miner" as a cultural concept and ideological symbol is one of Grungni's main points of iconography. A sort of ambiguous dwarfly visage clad in the miners garb and with a miner's tool is already pretty Grungni like.

I'm not against the idea, but I'm not sure it would really occur to Snorri to alter one of his previous creations like that, since that implies he either didn't finish it or it wasn't quite what he had in mind.
 
In truth guys...I feel that after the King of the Skies has been frankly incredibly generous for the terms of the initial agreement and bro-like, as well as being a valuable ally in combat, and a source of potentially a T5 reagent in the future via the deal, especially if we deck him out to kill said reagent source...that I care more about his survival than forging a super golem (whose composition and size we will be forever arguing about) sometime in the future.

I propose we make a Talisman for him, the reagents: a bar of Adamant and the Greedy Troll's Heart.

Hell, between the equipment he gets and the deal he could probably FIND US another T5 troll.
Honestly I'd perfer to just give him the Heart to eat rather than use it as a reagent. A fast artifact would be an inefficient use of the heart, and a difficult one might not be ready until after Kholek. We know Storm Gryphons gain power by eating Greedy Hearts so it stands to reason that eating THE Greedy Heart would give one hell of a buff.
 
So again, it's not only not out jobs in this situation but better to just leave it to others more competent since our actions are better geared towards other things.
Its not like I'm asking for an entire turn worth of AP I'm just asking for a point into asking or advising the King to send messengers to other holds in the North to evacuate those willing into our hold. Is that to much to ask?, unlike other options It can be done pretty quickly and does not take a whole decades worth of time.
 
Its not like I'm asking for an entire turn worth of AP I'm just asking for a point into asking or advising the King to send messengers to other holds in the North to evacuate those willing into our hold. Is that to much to ask?, unlike other options It can be done pretty quickly and does not take a whole decades worth of time.
We have no mechanical means to do that, and don't need to? If Otrek thinks its a good idea, or one of his advisors thinks its a good idea they'll raise it and this includes Snorri. Or put another way, it doesn't even rise to the level of effort mechanically represented by our requests and actions.

Otrek isn't an idiot, and nor is soulcake driving him and all the other NPCs around, so I'm going to surmise they will consider the situation and soul will present us with them doing what needs to be done. This is the kind of thing that soul has been doing on automatic.
 
Its not like I'm asking for an entire turn worth of AP I'm just asking for a point into asking or advising the King to send messengers to other holds in the North to evacuate those willing into our hold. Is that to much to ask?, unlike other options It can be done pretty quickly and does not take a whole decades worth of time.
Bluntly speaking, yes, one of our limited 5 action points is asking a lot. A lot of our woes right now can be linked to the limited number of actions vs the things we want to do/create with them.

But this also isn't the sort of action that would require a point. It's sending a letter, or having a conversation. Points are for stuff like projects that take over a year. What you're asking is the kind of stuff that would be happening automatically. We didn't have to use up AP to have Snorri plan out the big Defense in Depth project, for example.
 
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I wonder what the actual casualty percentages are for holds in the north that have fallen to chaos.

Presumably the ones with no underway access are pretty high, but I'm more interested in what proportion escape using the underway, and how much more do so than in the original timeline.
 
We could also "just" apply the Hailmantle+ (Frostwyrm Blood) combo to an Adamant Talisman for the King of the Skies (The slowing of an enemy could be all our super fast royal feathered friend needs, it provides protection from ranged attacks, and possible stealth options with the storms and clouds.)

while applying the Heart to a Rune of Fortitude in the Armor we make for the King.

[ ] The Greedy One's Heart: This thing has been transferred to a warded container because you don't really trust anything that came from that thing. You're all but certain you could make a truly potent Rune of Healing or Fortitude with this thing, but perhaps there are other uses for it you could come up with that a battery of tests could reveal.[Cost: (4 -1) =3 actions] Student of the Odd will proc
This was BEFORE we fully studied it, and our research only support such. And Fortitude is a very interesting armor and potent Rune with fascinating potential for an eternally enduring and providing reagent like the Heart.
 
So just for clarity, he has an armor slot, a 'weapon' slot for gauntlets, a banner/talisman slot, and another talisman slot currently in use?
How many items can someone have equipped and act as a set at one time?
A. So in terms of Rune Equipment, a set (when considering a set bonus) would consist of the following:
- Armour
- 2 Enchanted Items: Banner and Talisman, or Talisman and Talisman (Technically what counts as a Talisman can range from a helmet to a necklace or even a horn, but Banner usually equates to Cape.)
- 2 Weapon "Slots": Great weapon, Weapon and Weapon, Weapon and a Shield. (You can be carrying more weapons, but the ones being wielded are what count towards a set bonus. No Zorroing for you.)
- Gronti body*
* If a dwarf with enchanted equipment manned a siege weapon with a Rune Combo, the combo would not count towards a set bonus. Gronti are the only exception to this rule, as the Runes that animate them would count towards the set Bonus as well.
From the FAQ with the spoiler to compress it pulled out.
 
Its worth noting that "The Miner" as a cultural concept and ideological symbol is one of Grungni's main points of iconography. A sort of ambiguous dwarfly visage clad in the miners garb and with a miner's tool is already pretty Grungni like.

I'm not against the idea, but I'm not sure it would really occur to Snorri to alter one of his previous creations like that, since that implies he either didn't finish it or it wasn't quite what he had in mind.
I'm honestly pretty for it as a long term goal. A golem made in the image of all the ancestor gods. Taking after their aspects and helping the northern holds as the originals did the southern holds. Just kinda drawing a blank on what the Valaya golem would do. Load it up with a lot of banner runes of regeneration? Give her a massive regeneration aura.
 
I'm honestly pretty for it as a long term goal. A golem made in the image of all the ancestor gods. Taking after their aspects and helping the northern holds as the originals did the southern holds. Just kinda drawing a blank on what the Valaya golem would do. Load it up with a lot of banner runes of regeneration? Give her a massive regeneration aura.
The Valaya golem would form the hearth/power core for when all the Ancestor God grontis Voltron up to fight kaiju battles.
 
Honestly I'd perfer to just give him the Heart to eat rather than use it as a reagent. A fast artifact would be an inefficient use of the heart, and a difficult one might not be ready until after Kholek. We know Storm Gryphons gain power by eating Greedy Hearts so it stands to reason that eating THE Greedy Heart would give one hell of a buff.
Besides not being so sure, it offends the Dwarven pride and my love of creation to not use it IN a creation.

And what is a "fast artifact"?
 
Going to say hell no to giving the heart to the Sky King. In fact feels like people are being insanely unreasonable when it comes to making stuff for the Sky King. Honestly the constant guilt tripping has likely seriously hurt the case in regards to the Sky Kings armor. Thing is that people were already willing to use a freaking T5 material if he managed to get his own and I imagine that most people wouldn't mind with using the best parts of Kholek's body to make him legendary tier armor.

As is feels like people are flat out fear mongering with all the groom and doom about the upcoming Kholek fight. Thing is that people are vastly underestimating us in this regard. As mentioned the Sky Kings people grow stronger from eating the hearts of powerful beings and it likely eat the heart of the Elder Frost Wyrm becoming even more powerful. Throw in the runes from the Ancestors and us potentially making legendary armor with the materials we already have minus the heart and think we are already good. Especially when you take into account that Ortrek a super combatant has legendary armor and his cloak likely combos with Trollslayer making him more powerful and him likely helping the Sky King.

So please chill out people.
 
Kholek doesn't have magic armor guys. The lightning-attracting thing is a special rule of his, not a magic item. His only magic equipment is the Starcrusher.

Lord of the Storm: During each of Kholek Suneater's Shooting phases, you may choose a single unengaged enemy unit that is within 24" of Kholek Suneater, and is in his front arc and line of sight, and roll a D6. On a roll o f a 2-6 a bolt of lightning hits the unit, inflicting D 6 Strength 6 hits. On the roll of a 1, the lightning hits Kholek Suneater instead (see the Storm Rage special rule). Kholek Suneater may use this ability even if he is engaged in close combat.

He shoots lightning at others; it's a ranged attack. (And on a roll of 1, he instead gets hit by that lightning himself.) Does that sound familiar? Like somebody else we know? Well...
I wonder if the dragon ogres already made their pact with the chaos gods that granted them immortality by consuming lightning, or if this is something the species gained specifically by having their greatest hero devour the heart of a storm god on the orders of the chaos gods...
... It's possible that he got Lord of the Storm from the Sky King.

Dragon Ogre Shaggoths -- not mere Dragon Ogres, who are "Monstrous Infantry" (think Ogre or Troll) but Shaggoths who are Monsters (think Dragon or Giant) -- eat lightning to begin with. But they don't shoot it.

So perhaps Chronic's guess was right. Maybe Kholek got his ability to call down lightning onto the battlefield from eating the Sky King.

Also, for future reference, here also is the lightning-eating ability that Dragon Ogre Shaggoth (but not mere Dragon Ogres) have:

Storm Rage: Models with this special rule have a 2+ ward save against all lightning-based attacks. This includes hits caused by spells (such as Chain Lightnings Urannon's Thunderbolt, Warp Lightnings Storm of Shemtek etc.), weapons (such as Skaven Warp Lightning Cannons) and other special abilities and attacks (such as a Skaven Doomwheel's Zzzap!, or Kholek Suneater's Lord of the Storm attack). If a model with this special rule is ever hit by a lightning-based attack or effect, they immediately gain the Frenzy special rule.

So they're immune to lightning, and go into a Frenzy if they get hit by it.
In truth guys...I feel that after the King of the Skies has been frankly incredibly generous for the terms of the initial agreement and bro-like, as well as being a valuable ally in combat, and a source of potentially a T5 reagent in the future via the deal, especially if we deck him out to kill said reagent source...that I care more about his survival than forging a super golem (whose composition and size we will be forever arguing about) sometime in the future.

I propose we make a Talisman for him, the reagents: a bar of Adamant and the Greedy Troll's Heart.

Hell, between the equipment he gets and the deal he could probably FIND US another T5 troll.
Actually, I've been having a thought about making him a Talisman instead, too.

Specifically -- one that absorbs lightning, so that Dragon Ogre Shaggoths can't.

I feel like the problem is that we can't just make and give him Legendary armor; because it falls afoul of the "don't value my work as less than it actually is" thing (damn I wish I can track down the specific post that had this phrase, because I think I butchered it a bit). Namely, the problem is that... you have to get paid for your work, you have to be valued for it. It would be weird if Snorri just made the armor first. Especially since, furthermore, the King of the Sky himself said "Ask me to do something, and I will do it." So it's also his pride on the line too.

It feels like a Catch-22! We want to make the armor. But we kind of can't. And we fear the Dragon Ogre Shaggoths as being a natural predator of the Griffons...

So, here's my proposal:

We take the "Boon from the Sky" action this turn. We ask the King of the Skies to go kill Kholek Suneater.

[ ] Boon from the Sky: Write-in what you want from the King of the Skies. He can do a lot but be reasonable. In exchange, he expects a suit of armour. [Cost: Start Request, [Difficult] Plated Skies Pt. 1:] No Time Limit

And we make sure to arm him with a talisman that feeds on lightning, so that he can kill a Dragon Ogre Shaggoth safely.

My proposal? A Talisman, with the runes of "Iron + Lightning + Warding."

We know that elemental runes can either inflict their element -- usually on a weapon, or a warmachine -- or protect from their element. (Yes, I know that I was chattering about getting this on the armor, but... needs must. And a talisman is faster to craft. And this way, we get to actually use the "Boom from the Sky" and get the breathing room available to make the super armor we want to make.) @soulcake can you confirm whether Runesmiths can choose whether armor/talisman/whatever runes will be a "protects from X element" or a "inflicts X element strike if you hit the wearer" when they craft the runes? Or at least, confirm whether the Lightning rune on talismans (and armor) will be defensive?

So I say we make a Talisman that absorbs lightning and uses it to power a powerful shield. So that the King wouldn't be disadvantaged against Kholek Suneater.

Call it... The Stormguard Talisman.

... And if we can, we send either the Miner or if we have time maybe we make the Warrior Gronti, and send them to tank Kholek while the Griffon King does the DPS.
 
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Going to say hell no to giving the heart to the Sky King. In fact feels like people are being insanely unreasonable when it comes to making stuff for the Sky King. Honestly the constant guilt tripping has likely seriously hurt the case in regards to the Sky Kings armor. Thing is that people were already willing to use a freaking T5 material if he managed to get his own and I imagine that most people wouldn't mind with using the best parts of Kholek's body to make him legendary tier armor.

As is feels like people are flat out fear mongering with all the groom and doom about the upcoming Kholek fight. Thing is that people are vastly underestimating us in this regard. As mentioned the Sky Kings people grow stronger from eating the hearts of powerful beings and it likely eat the heart of the Elder Frost Wyrm becoming even more powerful. Throw in the runes from the Ancestors and us potentially making legendary armor with the materials we already have minus the heart and think we are already good. Especially when you take into account that Ortrek a super combatant has legendary armor and his cloak likely combos with Trollslayer making him more powerful and him likely helping the Sky King.

So please chill out people.
Red, I'm honestly getting pretty exasperated.

Make the armor now, don't make weapons, don't use the heart for him, keep him alive, he's gonna die if he doesn't get equipment right freaking now, don't give him the best, we need him able to defeat Kholek; you're not being consistent, and you've been missing points, and honestly you're coming off pretty strong.

Please just, tone it down a little?

Besides, this is as much about using the heart for our benefit in this war of survival as it is being nice to the KotS. I want to make something awesome to benefit us now, not later.

Kholek doesn't have magic armor guys. The lightning-attracting thing is a special rule of his, not a magic item. His only magic equipment is the Starcrusher.

Lord of the Storm: During each of Kholek Suneater's Shooting phases, you may choose a single unengaged enemy unit that is within 24" of Kholek Suneater, and is in his front arc and line of sight, and roll a D6. On a roll o f a 2-6 a bolt of lightning hits the unit, inflicting D 6 Strength 6 hits. On the roll of a 1, the lightning hits Kholek Suneater instead (see the Storm Rage special rule). Kholek Suneater may use this ability even if he is engaged in close combat.

He shoots lightning at others; it's a ranged attack. (And on a roll of 1, he instead gets hit by that lightning himself.) Does that sound familiar? Like somebody else we know? Well...

... It's possible that he got Lord of the Storm from the Sky King.

Dragon Ogre Shaggoths -- not mere Dragon Ogres, who are "Monstrous Infantry" (think Ogre or Troll) but Shaggoths who are Monsters (think Dragon or Giant) -- eat lightning to begin with. But they don't shoot it.

So perhaps Chronic's guess was right. Maybe Kholek got his ability to call down lightning onto the battlefield from eating the Sky King.

Also, for future reference, here also is the lightning-eating ability that Dragon Ogre Shaggoth (but not mere Dragon Ogres) have:

Storm Rage: Models with this special rule have a 2+ ward save against all lightning-based attacks. This includes hits caused by spells (such as Chain Lightnings Urannon's Thunderbolt, Warp Lightnings Storm of Shemtek etc.), weapons (such as Skaven Warp Lightning Cannons) and other special abilities and attacks (such as a Skaven Doomwheel's Zzzap!, or Kholek Suneater's Lord of the Storm attack). If a model with this special rule is ever hit by a lightning-based attack or effect, they immediately gain the Frenzy special rule.

So they're immune to lightning, and go into a Frenzy if they get hit by it.

Actually, I've been having a thought about making him a Talisman instead, too.

Specifically -- one that absorbs lightning, so that Dragon Ogre Shaggoths can't.

I feel like the problem is that we can't just make and give him Legendary armor; because it falls afoul of the "don't value my work as less than it actually is" thing (damn I wish I can track down the specific post that had this phrase, because I think I butchered it a bit). Namely, the problem is that... you have to get paid for your work, you have to be valued for it. It would be weird if Snorri just made the armor first. Especially since, furthermore, the King of the Sky himself said "Ask me to do something, and I will do it." So it's also his pride on the line too.

It feels like a Catch-22! We want to make the armor. But we kind of can't. And we fear the Dragon Ogre Shaggoths as being a natural predator of the Griffons...

So, here's my proposal:

We take the "Boon from the Sky" action this turn. We ask the King of the Skies to go kill Kholek Suneater.

[ ] Boon from the Sky: Write-in what you want from the King of the Skies. He can do a lot but be reasonable. In exchange, he expects a suit of armour. [Cost: Start Request, [Difficult] Plated Skies Pt. 1:] No Time Limit

And we make sure to arm him with a talisman that feeds on lightning, so that he can kill a Dragon Ogre Shaggoth safely.

My proposal? A Talisman, with the runes of "Iron + Lightning + Warding."

We know that elemental runes can either inflict their element -- usually on a weapon, or a warmachine -- or protect from their element. (Yes, I know that I was chattering about getting this on the armor, but... needs must. And a talisman is faster to craft. And this way, we get to actually use the "Boom from the Sky" and get the breathing room available to make the super armor we want to make.)

So I say we make a Talisman that absorbs lightning and uses it to power a powerful shield. So that the King wouldn't be disadvantaged against Kholek Suneater.

Call it... The Stormguard Talisman.

... And if we can, we send either the Miner or if we have time maybe we make the Warrior Gronti, and send them to tank Kholek while the Griffon King does the DPS.
That's only if @soulcake decides to use TWW or 8th edition. 7th edition has the Armor of the Storm, which does as I said, in addition to the Lord of the Storm special rule.




Something that doesn't require dedicating multiple turns of AP to complete.
It doesn't decrease the quality, you realize?
 
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Kinda expecting this next turn to have a battle option. Where we participate in the siege. Though, we made equipment for the entire hold before right? But that was mining stuff. If the option presents itself, I'd really like to go ham on a "make weapons for the throng" kind of action. Where we can get the other Runesmiths here to all help out and equip out entire hold with runic stuffs.
 
We already made weapons for the throng iirc. It was noted during the Grimnir campaign that the Kraka Drakk throng was a very well runed force
 
It should take 1+3 = 4 actions to do the Griffon armor in total (assuming it's just the one piece) right?

So if we put in 2 AP on the design phase, we can start the next turn with 2/3 progress and then dump 5 more, bringing the total overflow to 7.

Effort determines quality, so this would make it the best armor we can make, and clocks in at 2.33 times the AP in overflow.

Otherwise, we could just use 3 AP to make it in 1 turn with only 1 overflow.

If we immediately spend 5 AP, then we end up with 4 overflow, which is only 1.33 times the normal AP cost.

On a related note, if we're making both Armor and Weapons for the Griffon, I think we should make the Weapons first, because it's likely much easier to get a combo on weapons straight off the bat, so we could spend any spare AP while crafting them on testing for the more elusive Armor combos.

Essentially, my suggested turn looks like this:
Turn 1:
2 AP on finishing the Banner.
2 AP on starting the Griffon Weapon.
1 AP on testing an Armor combo.

Next turn would finish the Weapon, and potentially test another armor combo.

If either test reveals an Armor combo, then all of turn 3 can be devoted to making it.

On every turn of this plan, a useful item is finished and sent to contribute to the fight.
 
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