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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Do you want to make your interpretation public, or do you not?
Going solely by this definition, I feel like this makes the argument of not revealing anything a lot stronger.

If anyone needs to claim they are king, then they are no king at all. If other people come to the conclusion we are the Heir of Thungi, that is something they decided, not something we demanded of them.
 
[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.
 
I know I'm repeating myself but I like all this discussion, so I want to add my two cents. Do we really need to be Thungni's heir to be Thungi's heir?

Let me elaborate. After taking heir title even in the best case an insignificant part of runesmiths won't be fine with us. I want to focus on this "minority". What will happen to them or to be more specific what will happen to Vragni? I like "Dinkleberg!" memes and T-posing on the guy but he is despite everything a well-respected runelord in his hold and region. One may even say his quality work and productivity rate rival Snorri himself. He is a bit of wazzok sometimes but is still a net positive for those around him. Yes, he does grumble and even slander Snorri but he also has done much for dwarves around him.

Where I'm going with this is, what will happen to everyone who disagrees with Snorri if we are accepted as heir. (Whether the rest of the runesmiths will accept him or not has already been argued by many, so I won't talk about it and assume the best.) Snorri, tho he has already achieved much is not the only who has the only right ideas about everything. There are other runelords, conservative or otherwise, who can push and have already pushed runesmithing forward. Snorri's way is not the only way forward.

What if Snorri was an accepted heir when we built Khazagar? What would others do? They would grumble a bit, say "As expected of Thungni's heir" and at best case, they would simply copy the Khazagar. There wouldn't be any Citadel of Creation in Ornsmotek or other things that the southern holds are cooking.

Snorri will keep getting older, his accomplishments will grow, and he will probably crack Consternation, and with hammer and title who will really oppose him then? Those who simply don't agree with Snorri get crushed under everything. Sooner or later there wont be other schools of thought other than "Snorrism".

As an argument, I see some say we can be a silent neutral arbiter like Thungni but I don't think it will work. In Thungni's silence people could come up with their ideas and had room to argue, ancestor only had to intervene when things got really heated like that one in Conclave. Snorri's silence won't be the same one as Thungi's. Snorri is pretty much a hermit in far North but due to his actions and deeds people still try to "copy" him. Many runesmiths in Kraka Drak call themself not slightly less conservative, not even radical but straight up "Snorrist" and yet Snorri pretty much didn't say anything in his own hold too.

I understand why people want to take the title. It will help us stop rune-lore from being lost in up-coming tragedies and disasters, it will help use shape the guild into a better one than in the canon but do we really need to be Thungni's heir to do all these? With having hammer we will have quite a bit of prestige, why should longer path be impossible?

If we want to take a more central role in the future of guild, we can do it without constraining ourselves and the other runesmiths. We can start to talk and write more to other runelords. Open more dialogues, build ties, discuss and grumble at each other. We can try to be less of a hermit while still being usual weird rune-santa.

There is also this line, alongside soulcake saying all this is Snorri's interpretation which was in part the inspiration for most of this rant. I don't know if he is really in a good headspace to take this role:

You do not trust them.

At the end, I believe we can still do much and even worthy of being Durin's heir without taking any title. It will be hard but anything worth doing is.

English isn't my first language so I'm really sory for any mistakes and for the long rant. As a last note thanks to soulcake for the quest, can't wait to read more.
 
god that's a lot of vote,the vote tally took almost a minute to load

[] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.
Eddit:
[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.
 
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Everyone failed and died, and we are still trucking. What's your point? If failure and death makes things meaningless, then the entire Warhammer setting is meaningless.

Thungni as presented in this Quest is someone who understood the importance of tradition, but was also accepting and even encouraging of innovation. What's the problem there?

In any case, there's no unreasonable cultural expectations there, because there are cultural expectations that exists in RL amongst many peoples and we just live with them, and that's that. You seem to have started off from a point of view that Dawi Culture is stupid and then moved backwards.

It is very much unreasonable cultural expectation, even Snori thinks it is unreasonable and that the Better Mousetrap left him unprepared to be an heir, but he cannot take that thought to its logical conclusion since he's suffering from a thought-stopping cliche 'it's Him'.
 
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[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.
 
[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.
 
Where I'm going with this is, what will happen to everyone who disagrees with Snorri if we are accepted as heir. (Whether the rest of the runesmiths will accept him or not has already been argued by many, so I won't talk about it and assume the best.) Snorri, tho he has already achieved much is not the only who has the only right ideas about everything. There are other runelords, conservative or otherwise, who can push and have already pushed runesmithing forward. Snorri's way is not the only way forward.
So keep in mind, Thungni rarely did anything. Being the heir doesn't give us any power except the implied approval of Thungni.

If people don't like it, well its not something to fight a war over. Following Thungni's example won't let Snorri start bothering them and impressing his beliefs on them, and if he does, theres likely to be backlash among Snorri supporters, because they'll see it as Snorri putting himself on a pedestal above Thungni.

Thungni never gave himself any powers, and so the heir wouldn't inherit any.
How many heirs of ancestor gods are there alive in the quest currently?
Alive is the incorrect question.
As far as we know or have been told in the quest the only heir any ancestors have chosen was Snorri Whitebeard who is still alive.
If there are any other heirs we don't know about they're probably also alive because its just been a few decades since the ancestors left.
 
To claim the Hammer is to claim the seat of one Lost.

To claim the seat of one Lost is to embody Us

To embody Us is to be Dawi

To be Dawi is to—

—Resist.

Overcome.

Endure.
After rereading the whole passage about "heirs".

It plainly describes the "seat of one Lost"
Who other matches the description than Durin. Empty seat at the Rhunesmith conference, and has the aptly named title of "The Lost".

Additionally, it specifies that to claim the seat is to embody "Us". I assume the "Us" would naturally be Thungni. (Could it be the dawi race?)

Now does the latter parts refer to physically taking the seat of Durin? Does it describe that by claiming the hammer, you pick up Durins legacy?

Or is it that no matter what you would do, so long as it cleaved after Durin you automatically embody Thungni?
If so, isnt Snorri already embodying Thungni by just doing the stuff he does?

Not only that, but was Durin ever confirmed to be Thungni's heir? Did Thungni ever point is finger at Durin and explicitly say "This lad, he embodies my ideals in both action and spirit. Heed his words"

Or is it instead that nearly all runesmiths assumed that Durin=Thungnis heir despite no indication from the Ancestor?

Is this what Snorri also has done now? Assumed that by claiming Durins seat, you must act like Thungni did, lest you bring shame upon Him and His legacy?
 
[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.
 
I'm also feeling really frustrated by this too. There seems to be a huge disconnect between QM and voter understanding of this vote. I asked for clarification and only got more confused.
The thing is that while the "Do not claim" title has very clear disadvantage, the "claim it" does not. This has left counterarguments to it grasping because they depend on inherently faulty interpretation of text as we see it. Which is assaultable because none of us see into QM´s head, ergo it cannot be substantiated by more than "this is my reading of the situation".
 
[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.
 
Do you want to make your interpretation public, or do you not?
I feel like there should be a real option about keeping our God damn mouth shut and letting everybody else believe what they want about the hammer. That if he wanted us or anybody else to be his heir then that means he doesn't want us acting like a bad knock off of him he wants us to be ourselves and that's who we wanted to be as heir. But as that is an option I also think that just having the hammer and pretending that doesn't change anything is fucking stupid.

[x] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ???
 
If people don't like it, well its not something to fight a war over. Following Thungni's example won't let Snorri start bothering them and impressing his beliefs on them, and if he does, theres likely to be backlash among Snorri supporters, because they'll see it as Snorri putting himself on a pedestal above Thungni.
Claiming to be the heir of your god, meaning becoming like your god to the extent that the two of you are indistinguishable, therefore claiming to know how to best become your god seems exactly like the thing that would cause a war/schism.

I feel like there should be a real option about keeping our God damn mouth shut and letting everybody else believe what they want about the hammer.
Voting not to become the heir is that option. I am genuinely curious why you think it's not.
 
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[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.
 
Claiming to be the heir of your god, meaning becoming like your god to the extent that the two of you are indistinguishable, therefore claiming to know how to best become your god seems exactly like the thing that would cause a war/schism.
And if after someone has claimed to do all that, they then go back to their cave and don't bother you again then they're just a crazy coot.
Or are you going to be leading the crusade into Utah to deal with the Mormon heresy?
 
One Snori Grungison.

So keep in mind, Thungni rarely did anything. Being the heir doesn't give us any power except the implied approval of Thungni.

If people don't like it, well its not something to fight a war over. Following Thungni's example won't let Snorri start bothering them and impressing his beliefs on them, and if he does, theres likely to be backlash among Snorri supporters, because they'll see it as Snorri putting himself on a pedestal above Thungni.

Thungni never gave himself any powers, and so the heir wouldn't inherit any.

Alive is the incorrect question.
As far as we know or have been told in the quest the only heir any ancestors have chosen was Snorri Whitebeard who is still alive.
If there are any other heirs we don't know about they're probably also alive because its just been a few decades since the ancestors left.

As actually direct from Ancestor or The Heirs?

One. Also named Snorri.

Wondering if there was anyone other than Snorri Whitebeard who was know as a heir to one of the ancestor gods.

Though, if there was someone who was heir to an heir would be interesting since they would also be part of a continuity.
 
I feel like there should be a real option about keeping our God damn mouth shut and letting everybody else believe what they want about the hammer. That if he wanted us or anybody else to be his heir then that means he doesn't want us acting like a bad knock off of him he wants us to be ourselves and that's who we wanted to be as heir. But as that is an option I also think that just having the hammer and pretending that doesn't change anything is fucking stupid.

[x] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ???
I will note your vote needs to be reformatted to count properly due to the system being A Fuck. Please use:

[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.

This.

The tally counter's kind of a dumdum.
 
Wondering if there was anyone other than Snorri Whitebeard who was know as a heir to one of the ancestor gods.

Though, if there was someone who was heir to an heir would be interesting since they would also be part of a continuity.
Again, as far as we know there were no other heirs.
Snorri Whitebeards heir is and will always been (theoretically at least) the High King.

E:
We might genuinely get censured by the guild for heresy if it goes badly, religion is a big deal to the Dawi.
The guild doesn't have the power of censure.
Thats one of the critical differences between the Runesmiths guild and all other guilds.
They can bring a truely incredible amount of peer pressure to bear... But if Snorri genuinely accepts the call from Thungni he can also bring an unreasonable amount of willpower to resist.
 
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