RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[_The_Bomb]

Im sorry, Im not in a good enough head space right now to answer this I guess. The vote isn't closing so Ill get back to you to answer in a better state of mind.

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Take care of yourself soul! Remember, enjoying yourself is what really matters.

 

[rocketroland999]

Voting not to become the heir is that option. I am genuinely curious why you think it's not.

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No, voting to not become the heir is stating definitively that we are not the heir. It is not the option of letting people come to their own conclusions as to whether we are or not

 

[Dark as Silver]

the judgment is about how Khazagar is organised and its purpose, not the school itself.

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He knows its purpose, the judgement will be if it achieves it without unacceptable side effects.

 

[Briefvoice]

So I did a thread search to see what soulcake has posted over the years about Thungni and if there was anything interesting. There was no big "this is what Snorri thinks Thungni believed" post but there are some interesting nuggets that we could take as soulcake's idea's about what Snorri might think Thungni was like and what it would mean to try and operate as he did.

Thungni gave the early Runesmiths a very solid foundation to work from and build their theories on. Technically he still is finding more runes.

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Nine centuries on this solid earth without the knowledge and you did fine enough, look at Barak Azamar if any doubted your ability! No, it simply means you have far higher peaks to climb, more to learn and understand in your pursuit of ever greater feats of Runecraft. You were not crippled by this lack of knowledge, your forebears, Thungni, suffered the same limitations and they crafted wonders beyond comparison.

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Thungni's Heir must keep pushing the boundaries of rune knowledge. Thungni figured stuff out and learned to craft wonders beyond comparison. Thungni never stopped researching new runes. Keep researching new runes. Keep trying new stuff.

Simply put, the only Dwarfs currently who have shared Rune's they've made on masse are Thungni or his immediate children and apprentices

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Share the runes as you see fit. Thhungni was qualified to make that decision. So were Durin and his other children and apprentices. His Heir has the right to share runes.

Thungni taught the runes. I will tell you now he pays very little attention(relative) to the codification his apprentices made from their interpretation of his strictures. He'll act if they get too stupid because it would bother him, but is otherwise going to do what he does best.

Making Runes.

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ou will never ever see Morgrim or Thungni for instance, give their opinion on the internal cult conflict. By their book, as long as open warfare isn't being waged, this is literally splitting hairs and not worth their time because these beardlings should be able to figure even this out.

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As others have explained, the Rules are the best interpretation of Thungni's children and first students.

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Well thats a take. Its easy to see Dwarf politics fall along our own sensibilities, but a Conservative Runesmith is just a Runesmith who fervently adheres to the Rules Thungni *laid out* so to speak ( by which I mean, the codified interpretation of his earliest apprentices).

The ultimate twist, Thungi was so smart he used the Dwarf's innate Conservatism to introduce and promote Progressivism.

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This is a little ambiguous. If the idea is Thungni's Heir should "be like Thungni" then Thungni never wrote court briefs. He didn't write out his decisions and explain the reasoning behind them. One the other hand, that's exactly what Thungni's children and immediate apprentices did.

So is his Heir meant to act more like Thungni himself and not try to interpret the law? Or is the Heir supposed to act like those children and apprentices and is supposed to explain to everyone what Thungni really meant?

The Burudin are not the arbitrators of Runesmith conduct. Only Thungni can say "this is cool," and get everyone to fall in line.

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Or Durin when he was around, one presumes. Saying "this is cool" does seem part of the job.

The younger Ancestors, Morgrim, Thungni and Smednir took on apprentices when they were younger, but that trickle has slowed. Before anyone asks, they literally founded the individual guilds they are patrons of, so they trained a LOT of apprentices.

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Take lots of apprentices and never stop entirely.

These aren't all the quotes by far, and I didn't bother anything more recent than 2023. These are just the ones I thought communicated something meaningful.

 

[DragonParadox]

This is a little ambiguous. If the idea is Thungni's Heir should "be like Thungni" then Thungni never wrote court briefs. He didn't write out his decisions and explain the reasoning behind them. One the other hand, that's exactly what Thungni's children and immediate apprentices did.

So is his Heir meant to act more like Thungni himself and not try to interpret the law? Or is the Heir supposed to act like those children and apprentices and is supposed to explain to everyone what Thungni really meant?

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Yeah, see that is what I mean about lack of preparation. Snori wants to act 'like Thungi' even though he does not understand his reasoning for acting the way he does. At least when it comes to the politics his conception of an heir as sublimating themselves in the ethos of their master is not compatible with our lack of understanding of that ethos. We could through study figure out what he did, but not 'why' and the 'why' is the very thing that Thungi should have explained if he wanted this thing from Snori. This is both a moral and a practical position whether we judge well or poorly we cannot judge 'as Thungi' since he did not reveal that part of his mind to Snori and now he's dead.

 

[Pancake33]

yes? Its opportunity cost? You don´t accept and you don´t get all this power now but instead of that in thousand years if you are active is perfectly valid disadvantage. If i get a promisory note for 10 million dollars that i can cash out when i am 50 instead of now changes my life not at all if i die of some random disease at 37.

Thats the trade here. Heir lets us assume political power beyond our current level at the cost of something. The impact of that something however is entirely unknown.

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I agree with the opportunity cost, I think it is up to reader interpretation if we would actually gain said power or if others would oppose us but in principle i agree.

I disagree with the trade part, to me other than up to reader interpretation downsides there is the very clearn downside of: "You would be Thungni, in all ways, to be forever in his shadow until you fit it like a hand does a glove. Because that is what you were taught and what you believe, and you could not accept anything less."

With additional comments from soulcake:

Snorri subscribes to an older and extreme-ish school of thought that an heir takes up their teacher's mantle fully. That if that master was to die, a sufficiently trained heir can literally pick up their stuff and do everything they can without issue.
-- Consequently he believes becoming an heir is inherently more restrictive than being an apprentice. an heir is an extension of their Master. Not the person, but the entity, the idea. If they have an heir, that chain continues. The ideals, responsibilities, and expectations of the Master change over time of course, but they are always an heir.
-- If I had to use a metaphor. Then imagine a family restaurant. The master is the owner and head chef. His students all work at the restaurant. His students have the choice of staying there or leaving and making their own restaurant that can be as related to their teachers as they want. An heir literally takes up the Master's job when he retires, he continues to use his recipes. Stuff inevitably changes at the restaurant, but its akin to a Ship of Theseus situation.

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So yeah, I agree that it's a trade-off I just feel like the people advocating for "yes heir" are trying to make the above seem like it's a non issue or like there is no downside or that we don't know what the cost is. We know that at least the above is a clear cost in addition to hidden costs not yet revealed/up to reader interpretation.

I'm cool with people being cool with that trade-off, I just want people to make an informed decision I guess.

With respect that it's very possible (and likely) that I'm misunderstanding things or not understanding people's motivations as well as this not being why people vote one way or another.

In my opinion we don't need the additional power, for one because I'm personally not sure it's that ease and because I dislike the trade-off. I believe we will gain enough power on our own to achieve the desire effects of "save an entire race from their self-destruction".

No, voting to not become the heir is stating definitively that we are not the heir. It is not the option of letting people come to their own conclusions as to whether we are or not

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I don't think that's entirely clear. We are not making our interpretation of what a destroyed poem means public/make it public. It's not clear to me that people won't think "he is the heir". It seems pretty clear that we will deny it if asked but I don't think this vote controls what others think, only our own view on things.

 

[AeonIlluminate]

[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.

 

[Rukia]

So yeah, I agree that it's a trade-off I just feel like the people advocating for "yes heir" are trying to make the above seem like it's a non issue or like there is no downside or that we don't know what the cost is. We know that at least the above is a clear cost in addition to hidden costs not yet revealed/up to reader interpretation.

I'm cool with people being cool with that trade-off, I just want people to make an informed decision I guess.

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This is my main concern as well yeah, I'm pretty ambivalent about adding more difficulty to Snorri's life by making the claim, but I do have significant concerns that people just do not understand what they are voting for in regards to Snorri proclaiming himself Thungi's Heir.

It's genuinely completely impossible for him to try and mantle the position as he's training Karstah to do for him, because as mentioned, he cannot answer the why Thungi did any particular thing he did. So from the very start it's going to be an effort doomed to fail, and I really don't want to see Snorri change as a person. I like Snorri, seeing him bend himself into pretzels trying to know the mind of Thungi without ever really interacting with him sounds like an awful fate to witness.

 

[lancelot]

Claiming to be the heir of your god, meaning becoming like your god to the extent that the two of you are indistinguishable, therefore claiming to know how to best become your god seems exactly like the thing that would cause a war/schism.


Voting not to become the heir is that option. I am genuinely curious why you think it's not.

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That isn't remotely close to what I was saying I'm saying there should be an option where we don't say that we're not we just let people make up their own damn minds That isn't remotely close to what I was saying I'm saying there should be an option where we don't say that we're not we just let people make up their own damn minds. After all if the ancestor wanted somebody'd just like him to be the heir he wouldn't have left in the first damn place.

[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.

 

[Thanatos757]

[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.

 

[Rovos]

Personally i just don't like the nerrative of being Thungi's heir. It would make everything feel for a lack of a better term restrictive.

everything would be viewed through that lens from then on and i just really don't like that.

 

[Rukia]

That isn't remotely close to what I was saying I'm saying there should be an option where we don't say that we're not we just let people make up their own damn minds That isn't remotely close to what I was saying I'm saying there should be an option where we don't say that we're not we just let people make up their own damn minds. After all if the ancestor wanted somebody'd just like him to be the air he went to left in the first damn place.

[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.

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You are misunderstanding. Snorri is the person that believes a Heir should be indistinguishable from their Master. If you vote for claiming the title of Heir, you are voting for what you are arguing against.

 

[Byzantine]

That isn't remotely close to what I was saying I'm saying there should be an option where we don't say that we're not we just let people make up their own damn minds That isn't remotely close to what I was saying I'm saying there should be an option where we don't say that we're not we just let people make up their own damn minds. After all if the ancestor wanted somebody'd just like him to be the air he went to left in the first damn place.

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That is perfectly valid reasoning. Unfortunately, Snorri does not subscribe to that line of thought.

 

[Pancake33]

That isn't remotely close to what I was saying I'm saying there should be an option where we don't say that we're not we just let people make up their own damn minds

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My interpretation is that the "no" option is that vote. We would deny it if asked but people will think what they will. It would indeed bar us from ever actually taking the physical seat but I don't think we need it.

I think it's totally cool to disagree with that interpretation and I think that some of the arguments about needing to fill the chair are compelling I just personally think the downsides are too big.

 

[Briefvoice]

Yeah, see that is what I mean about lack of preparation. Snori wants to act 'like Thungi' even though he does not understand his reasoning for acting the way he does. At least when it comes to the politics his conception of an heir as sublimating themselves in the ethos of their master is not compatible with our lack of understanding of that ethos. We could through study figure out what he did, but not 'why' and the 'why' is the very thing that Thungi should have explained if he wanted this thing from Snori. This is both a moral and a practical position whether we judge well or poorly we cannot judge 'as Thungi' since he did not reveal that part of his mind to Snori and now he's dead.

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Normally when someone is dead that is very convenient since you can decide they meant whatever you want them to have meant and no one can prove you wrong.

I presume that if there are two ways Snorri could reasonably interpret something, that's when the thread gets to vote on what we want Snorri to think it means.

 

[Pempelune]

We know what being an Heir entails, we've had Karstah doing that for the last century. It meant Karstah lost the independance and autonomy she had as a Journeywoman, and is treated more an extension of Snorri than as her own Runesmith. Hell, she even does commissions in our name.

Now, that was her choice and is fine. I don't want that for Snorri though. Akazit, Windsight, Durin's Consternation, these are Snorri's discoveries and I want them to be acknowledged as Snorri's - not as Thungni's by way of his Heir.
The prestige and political power is not worth that.

 

[Hastar]

I don't really participate and just lurk. But I think I'll throw my hat into the ring for this one:

[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.

 

[Olgol2]

[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.

 

[lancelot]

My interpretation is that the "no" option is that vote. We would deny it if asked but people will think what they will. It would indeed bar us from ever actually taking the physical seat but I don't think we need it.

I think it's totally cool to disagree with that interpretation and I think that some of the arguments about needing to fill the chair are compelling I just personally think the downsides are too big.

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Doesn't come across for me if he says otherwise I'll change my vote.

 

[Kufufu]

You're deciding a lot of things, stuff I can't largely say without spoiling.

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I get the desire to not spoil things, but this is a incredibly important, game changing vote and it would massively suck for everyone involved if we came out regretting the vote's result because of the narratively appealing Mystery Boxes. Obviously you dont have to unspoil them, but I really think that in this case disclosure is the better part of valor and it would save everyone needless frustration.

 

[Neablis]

[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.

 

[oOAribo]

My one question for this for @soulcake if it can be answered is this.
Will becoming the heir and taking up the mantle based on Snorri's given mentality:

I disagree with the trade part, to me other than up to reader interpretation downsides there is the very clearn downside of: "You would be Thungni, in all ways, to be forever in his shadow until you fit it like a hand does a glove. Because that is what you were taught and what you believe, and you could not accept anything less."

With additional comments from soulcake:

So yeah, I agree that it's a trade-off I just feel like the people advocating for "yes heir" are trying to make the above seem like it's a non issue or like there is no downside or that we don't know what the cost is. We know that at least the above is a clear cost in addition to hidden costs not yet revealed/up to reader interpretation.

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actively hamper the threads ability to do stuff that's been theory crafted and debated and 'planned' ( as far as anything can be planned when something new and shiny shows up) in any significant way? Where IC Snorri would say but I have to be as the master so no can do anymore?

Cos there's 3+ years of waiting for payoffs for some of this stuff that if it got locked away behind the vote would truly suck.

PS: Politics… fun right. 😋

PPS: Rest assured that I have no doubt that whatever the result, the quest and the writing will still continue to be as awesome as it always has been.

 

[Pempelune]

Another consideration is that by claiming the title of Thungni's Heir, we need to start behaving like Him. In particular, that means not throwing our now considerable political weight around - Thungni very carefully did not rock the boat, and so neither should we.
In particular, founding Khazagar is the kind of stunt we could not afford to do as Heir. It's the kind of thing Thungni scrupulously avoided doing, and so His Heir cannot touch either.

 

[Briefvoice]

One thing I think I can pretty confidently say from my thread search is that becoming Thungni's Heir would not impact rune research. Researching new runes and discovering new magic and trying to figure stuff out is what Thungni did. It was his big thing.

Being Heir will surely affect political stuff and trying to convince other Runelords to do things. It will affect commissions in that Snorri will have to achieve a Legendary level of quality on commissions, because soulcake said that directly.

But it definitely shouldn't impact rune research.

 

[ArchAIngel]

Honestly, given we both have a fucking bullshit tier craftybuff item, and our usual habits WRT reagents, adamant, ETC? "Minimum T4 Comms" is perfectly valid.

God help us if it turns out Brynbar can buff KKR's Master Runes.

(This is also why I want Brynbar because imagine picking up THUNGNI'S FUCKING HAMMER then making an item that goes "And it's better now!" Imagine the reactions. IMAGINE.)