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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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I think a lot of questers didn't realize that Thungni's hammer wouldn't be just a cool artie and/or research insight fodder, but a really important moment in this quest and are now panicking.

Snorri is who he is. Whether he takes up the mantle of Durin "officially" or he continues to follow in Durin's footsteps in spirit (as he already does), he will still challenge the status quo.

To be honest the way he was going and what reseaech he is pursuing, he would have become the next Durin some centuries down the line anyway.

I voted for refuse, because I want the mantle to become Snorri's on his own terms and sometimes later down the line.

I do however absolutely see the vote for accepting the position as valid.
Snorri is a valid choice for Durin's replacement, not only being a student of his student and being the member of *both* Durin's secret societies, but even his existing research achievements and goals show that his spirit burns with the same aim as Durin's did.
 
pucflek said:
The thing is that while the "Do not claim" title has very clear disadvantage, the "claim it" does not. This has left counterarguments to it grasping because they depend on inherently faulty interpretation of text as we see it. Which is assaultable because none of us see into QM´s head, ergo it cannot be substantiated by more than "this is my reading of the situation".
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What is the disadvantage of "Do not claim". How does the "claim it" not have disadvantages? In the vote itself the "do not claim" has no cost while the "claim" has a hidden cost. Even before considering interpretations.
 
[x] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.
 
Pancake33 said:
What is the disadvantage of "Do not claim". How does the "claim it" not have disadvantages? In the vote itself the "do not claim" has no cost while the "claim" has a hidden cost. Even before considering interpretations.
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Hidden cost yes.

Do not claim has the disadvantage of not having the political browbeating power that is the advantage of being the heir.

It has no cost, it does not do anything except let you do whatever. The disadvantages of "claim it" however are entirely up to personal interpretation, which should be pretty clear differs significantly, evidenced by the highest discussion turn out in pretty much ever.

I´ve struggled trying to think what i imagine those disadvantages could be and did not come up with much because thats how non-transparent it is to average person. I think we might have to get back to crafting more than we do now, I think it closes of the godhood epilogue and i think it might end up limiting our more extreme opinions on sharing runes, but i know none of these things and anyone else is free to dispute them because they are not written in by QM himself.

EDIT: The "claim it" has no inherent downside because it was not elucidated enough. And i mean i understand that. A reader with good reading comprehension and some reading under their belt and touch for literary analysis could probably make a good guess. But i am not that reader. To go further on, its impossible to list out all the disadvantages, because they don´t yet exist at the time of the update. This is a decision that will reverb through the rest of the quest and the QM cannot possibly be expected to list out all the disadvantages.

So i am sympathetic, but i still think that the odds on this one really are very heavily loaded.
 
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Pancake33 said:
Making our interpretation public invites others to have an opinion on what it means to be Thugnis heir.

If we keep it to ourselves only our own opinion, and those we care for, will matter.
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Oh no, keeping our opinion to ourselves means everyone else's opinion gets free reign about what our having Thungni's hammer means.

Politics will never leave this alone and we knew that going in when we expected to find the hammer. There is no world where finding what is functionally the hammer of Thor is not going to have people making their own conclusions about what it all means. Sure the guy wielding Mjolnir is a warrior and a proud follower of Thor but he says he isn't claiming the title of the new God of Thunder as he traipses around with the thing.

NPCs exist outside our control and with their own narrative opinions about what this means to them, what their opinion is about what owning the Hammer means and entails, and even if this means are the heir of Thungni regardless of what Snorri says.

We will inevitably be bombarded by people wanting to see the Hammer, that's an absolute given. I'm sure there will be an action next turn to handle just that alone.

But the Refuse option doesn't inherently involve us keeping the Hammer as a state secret level of hidden. That would need to be decided later and OpSec created around us having it to avoid people forming their own opinions.
 
Pancake33 said:
What is the disadvantage of "Do not claim". How does the "claim it" not have disadvantages? In the vote itself the "do not claim" has no cost while the "claim" has a hidden cost. Even before considering interpretations.
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tbh, I think it comes in the form of AP sink.

If you take the position, you have to spend time occupying that position. That may be the gist of it, additional duties.
 
Adhoc vote count started by Whenyouseeyou on Sep 4, 2024 at 4:35 PM, finished with 1227 posts and 330 votes.
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Dark as Silver said:
So keep in mind, Thungni rarely did anything.
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I agree. What I was trying to say was even if we too don't do much and try to be more objective it won't be the same as "Thungni rarely doing anything". He is an ancestor god, he has already done much before we saw him on screen. Runesmiths were able to look at past and came up with many different philosophies trying to understand him. In the long run I can't see it happening with Snorri. I just think it won't be the same case with Snorri, who already has "Snorrist" which consists of a small part of the "rune-smithing spectrum". What will happen to rest as Snorri will start to "fit more into the glove"
 
To Me this is a charecter vote for snorri that defines his heir view @NutMaster does he accept it or not with all that entails for both options for him to define what kind of heir he is

He first has to accept for himself that he is it and then go from there
 
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pucflek said:
Do not claim has the disadvantage of not having the political browbeating power that is the advantage of being the heir.

It has no cost, it does not do anything except let you do whatever. The disadvantages of "claim it" however are entirely up to personal interpretation, which should be pretty clear differs significantly, evidenced by the highest discussion turn out in pretty much ever.
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But the disadvantage only exists IF we get accepted as heir, only IF we cannot manage to gain enough influence on our own merit, only IF we don't get enough influence just by having the hammer.

There is a cost, otherwise there wouldn't be a cost in the vote. It not having a cost seems like just as heavy of an interpretation.
 
NutMaster said:
I agree. What I was trying to say was even if we too don't do much and try to be more objective it won't be the same as "Thungni rarely doing anything". He is an ancestor god, he has already done much before we saw him on screen. Runesmiths were able to look at past and came up with many different philosophies trying to understand him. In the long run I can't see it happening with Snorri. I just think it won't be the same case with Snorri, who already has "Snorrist" which consists of a small part of the "rune-smithing spectrum". What will happen to rest as Snorri will start to "fit more into the glove"
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Sure in that case I agree.
Before Khazagar happened Snorri could have been just enough of a weirdo that he fell outside of the typical political boundaries, however after it he'd cleaved an entirely new one.
 
Pancake33 said:
But the disadvantage only exists IF we get accepted as heir, only IF we cannot manage to gain enough influence on our own merit, only IF we don't get enough influence just by having the hammer.

There is a cost, otherwise there wouldn't be a cost in the vote. It not having a cost seems like just as heavy of an interpretation.
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yes? Its opportunity cost? You don´t accept and you don´t get all this power now but instead of that in thousand years if you are active is perfectly valid disadvantage. If i get a promisory note for 10 million dollars that i can cash out when i am 50 instead of now changes my life not at all if i die of some random disease at 37.

Thats the trade here. Heir lets us assume political power beyond our current level at the cost of something. The impact of that something however is entirely unknown.
 
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[x] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.
 
DragonParadox said:
The thing is he is not entirely the thread, that is the main concern right now. Personally I would love the power of the title, which would be then used to advance our plans in everything from encouraging more runesmith collaboration to getting closer to the elves politically so we notice when they have a civil war. But there is the concern that the word 'heir' comes with some limitations on Snori's agency that are based on his preexisting value set (the hand in glove stuff) which we at no point voted for. To be clear I am not saying this as an accusation, just trying to be blunt about why it can be hard to judge what the vote is going to do, it is contingent on some of Snori's values that we the voters do not share.
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Rukia said:
I'm trying to avoid coming across as combative here, but this is genuinely extremely unhelpful. "What does this vote mean for the quest" > "It means things, important things, you'll find out once you vote."

This is just setting up for an extremely bitter playerbase after the vote because the expectations people are getting from the options don't seem to match the reality of what is going to happen. Especially with the consequences that have been implied by the "gloving" of Thungi.
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Derpmind said:
I'm also feeling really frustrated by this too. There seems to be a huge disconnect between QM and voter understanding of this vote. I asked for clarification and only got more confused.
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Im sorry, Im not in a good enough head space right now to answer this I guess. The vote isn't closing so Ill get back to you to answer in a better state of mind.
 
[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.
 
[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.
 
Two things.

We can look at Durin and what he did with position. From what I can tell, not much, as in he didn't bring overwhelmingly impactful changes to dwarf kind. That didn't make him not Thungni's heir.

Knowing that Snorri could potentially end up his heir, Thungi said "judgment pending" for the Khazagar, imho, it's a perfectly valid interpretation that Thungni sees being head of Runic-School a good occupation for his potential heir, the judgment is about how Khazagar is organised and its purpose, not the school itself.

There's no doubt that accepting the position will bring large changes, but I don't think they will be incompatible with what Snorri has been doing.
 
[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.
 
Horium said:
I think a lot of questers didn't realize that Thungni's hammer wouldn't be just a cool artie and/or research insight fodder, but a really important moment in this quest and are now panicking.

Snorri is who he is. Whether he takes up the mantle of Durin "officially" or he continues to follow in Durin's footsteps in spirit (as he already does), he will still challenge the status quo.

To be honest the way he was going and what reseaech he is pursuing, he would have become the next Durin some centuries down the line anyway.

I voted for refuse, because I want the mantle to become Snorri's on his own terms and sometimes later down the line.

I do however absolutely see the vote for accepting the position as valid.
Snorri is a valid choice for Durin's replacement, not only being a student of his student and being the member of *both* Durin's secret societies, but even his existing research achievements and goals show that his spirit burns with the same aim as Durin's did.
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Some of it is that, well. The vote isn't to share the Poem. It's to share Snorri's interpretation of it. And sharing what you think something meant rather the actual text has a very long history of, well, confusing the issue.
 
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It's just not where I want to see the quest go

[x] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.
 
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