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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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So this is worrying me because it sounds a lot like guildmaster and I do not want to take that step for a couple of reasons but the sticking points I feel would be that Snorri doesn't want that either and it would probably cause a schism.
It won't as strictly speaking what we're doing isn't that far off a neutral arbiter. It's just that what we're an arbiter of are religious arguments as opposed to strictly technical stuff that we were doing with the Runeversity and Chainforger.

Runelords under the guild currently struggle because they're interpreting silence as either consent/limits place on them by Thungni, which is not true. Thungni's silence is an empty space where future Runesmith/Runelords may develop their own opinion on. But because by design the guild only has 2 positions capable of making a decision on that topic, and as of right now none of them is filled Runesmiths have no conflict resolution on what is acceptable by Thungni's commandments.
 
It won't as strictly speaking what we're doing isn't that far off a neutral arbiter. It's just that what we're an arbiter of are religious arguments as opposed to strictly technical stuff that we were doing with the Runeversity and Chainforger.

Runelords under the guild currently struggle because they're interpreting silence as either consent/limits place on them by Thungni, which is not true. Thungni's silence is an empty space where future Runesmith/Runelords may develop their own opinion on. But because by design the guild only has 2 positions capable of making a decision on that topic, and as of right now none of them is filled Runesmiths have no conflict resolution on what is acceptable by Thungni's commandments.

Nothing is strictly technical. Runesmithing, much as we might wish it otherwise, is always a hodgepodge of science politics and religion because it is a clan cult and guild in one. Dwarfs do not make the distinction between the three in this matter.
 
It won't as strictly speaking what we're doing isn't that far off a neutral arbiter.
Telling people how to respond to change. Or expecting them to follow our example. Goes a lot further than netural arbitration... And you already know my thoughts on how poorly equipped Snorri is for neutrality anyway.

Its strange to me that you can say Thungni's silence was a space for people to develop their own opinions, and then not conclude that the lack of people who can force decisions into that silence was not a deliberate design choice.
Snorri becoming a person who makes decisions on would only forcibly constrict that space unless he is also always silent.
I don't know what your two acceptable positions are, but if they're radical/conservative, you're not only missing the spectrum between them but you're also failing to recognise how that border does not cut across different issues evenly.
 
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[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you
 
Nothing is strictly technical. Runesmithing, much as we might wish it otherwise, is always a hodgepodge of science politics and religion because it is a clan cult and guild in one. Dwarfs do not make the distinction between the three in this matter.
That's fair, but for our purpose I still argue our main responsibility/power is in interpreting the will of Thungni because that's where most of the conflict arise from.

It's not like the Guild has that much responsibilities considering Thungni went missing for decades before anyone realize he isn't here.
Telling people how to respond to change. Or expecting them to follow our example. Goes a lot further than netural arbitration... And you already know my thoughts on how poorly equipped Snorri is for neutrality anyway.

Its strange to me that you can say Thungni's silence was a space for people to develop their own opinions, and then not conclude that the lack of people who can force decisions into that silence was not a deliberate design choice.
Snorri becoming a person who makes decisions on would only forcibly constrict that space unless he is also always silent.
That's kinda not true ish in a similar way to the paradox of free speech.

THe issue I'm trying to communicate is that the assumption that Thungni's silence achieved it's goals is false. It doesn't really do that because the default position of most Dawi is that Silence is either an Order that must be done or Limits that can't be crossed rather then the freedom it should represents. That is why an arbiter to force Dawi's to not take literally stupid interpretation on Thungni's will is needed. And only the Heir to Thungni can do that.

As a reminder at it's most extreme Dawi interpreted Thungni's silence that it was okay to censure Snorri for an inferior product. Quite literally using Thungni's former silence on the matter to constrict the space that Snorri ideal can exist right in front of Thungni himself.

What Snorri IMO will likely do is to act as an arbiter to remind people that Silence = Limits/Must-Dos is not actually true among other things in a similar vein.
 
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That's fair, but for our purpose I still argue our main responsibility/power is in interpreting the will of Thungni because that's where most of the conflict arise from.

It's not like the Guild has that much responsibilities considering Thungni went missing for decades before anyone realize he isn't here.

That's kinda not true ish in a similar way to the paradox of free speech.

THe issue I'm trying to communicate is that the assumption that Thungni's silence achieved it's goals is false. It doesn't really do that because the default position of most Dawi is that Silence is either an Order that must be done or Limits that can't be crossed rather then the freedom it should represents. That is why an arbiter to force Dawi's to not take literally stupid interpretation on Thungni's will is needed. And only the Heir to Thungni can do that.

As a reminder at it's most extreme Dawi interpreted Thungni's silence that it was okay to censure Snorri for an inferior product. Quite literally using Thungni's former silence on the matter to constrict the space that Snorri ideal can exist right in front of Thungni himself.

What Snorri IMO will likely do is to act as an arbiter to remind people that Silence = Limits/Must-Dos is not actually true among other things in a similar vein.

Could you give an example of said neutral arbitration? Because I feel like we are doing a lot of theoretical pontificating and not a lot of considering what this stuff is.
 
THe issue I'm trying to communicate is that the assumption that Thungni's silence achieved it's goals is false. It doesn't really do that because the default position of most Dawi is that Silence is either an Order that must be done or Limits that can't be crossed rather then the freedom it should represents. That is why an arbiter to force Dawi's to not take literally stupid interpretation on Thungni's will is needed. And only the Heir to Thungni can do that.

As a reminder at it's most extreme Dawi interpreted Thungni's silence that it was okay to censure Snorri for an inferior product. Quite literally using Thungni's former silence on the matter to constrict the space that Snorri ideal can exist right in front of Thungni himself.

What Snorri IMO will likely do is to act as an arbiter to remind people from taking the stance that Silence = Limits/Must-Dos is not actually true among other things.
Wait, it wasn't Thungni's silence that whatshis name used to start a fight, it was that he felt Snorri was over reaching the importance of his discovery when it was infact one weird trick mail hates. Secondly, two guys throwing fists in the conclave is not censure, 51% of the conclave against the rest would be.

To say the issue was that it was Thungni's silence places the issue in the wrong place, Thungni had not spoken yet, because it had been like 5 mins since Snorri revealed it, the issue wasn't that he was silent, unless the issue was that whatshisname had already assumed the silence and interpreted it. And thats a stretch, but also at that point its just whatshisname who was the problem.

If you want to present an example of when his silence has allowed unacceptable things to foster, could you perhaps show where upon seeing the Chaos Runes at Karak Dum, the gathered runelords said "Well, Thungni hasn't said they're bad so I guess we should go home." or something along those lines.
E:
Could you give an example of said neutral arbitration? Because I feel like we are doing a lot of theoretical pontificating and not a lot of considering what this stuff is.
The example Evillevi is thinking of is when we revealed the Chainmaker 1.0 and another dwarf got angry because of the low quality runes.
Thungni 'arbitrated' by saying "knowledge is offered freely, take it or leave it as you like." or something like that.

As I said above, I don't agree with the way that situation has been read.
E:E: Fetched it
"You would share this knowledge then? Is it truly so important?" Alric cuts in, voice betraying nothing of what he thinks about your decision.

"Aye, as soon as I return to my workshop I open my doors to any Master who would wish to learn," you reply.

Whispers and grumbling grow louder and louder until one of the sitting Runelords addresses you openly.

"You overstep boy! Arrogance! Arrogance so blatant that it is like coal dust upon a bleached woollen shirt! It is an insult to put those Runes such as those alongside works far better made, they are the words of a fool! An up jumped Rune of Flame and a butchered Master Rune of Conduction are all I see!" a particularly aged Runelord, Thorek Stonefoot your mind helpfully supplies, shouts. Simultaneously rising from his chair and pointing a finger at the Master Rune of Forgeflame especially.

The shouting and grumbling reach new heights at his declaration, the floodgates opening as others pitch in their support and criticism in equal measure. For a while you stand there and stare at him, features revealing nothing outwardly while you fume in the confines of your own mind.

How dare he? When have you ever shown yourself as the kind of glory-hungry fool he claims you to be? It is an insult of the highest order, one that strikes a nerve every dwarf possesses.

"I am no fool Thorek Stonefoot! Nor am I some glory hungry half beard like you claim! The Runes you so deride exist whether we wish them to or not, and I have found a use for them that has benefitted the Karaz Ankor while you twiddle about and settle for what you have been given like a beardling who knows no better! So close-minded are you that you see this Rune and can only compare it to that which you know instead of opening your eyes and mind to the possibilities and opportunities! The type of thinking you display is a disservice to this Guild, to this Craft, and I will not stand idly by as you insult my honour and dismiss my work because you refuse to use that piece of mouldy chuf between your ears that you call a brain like any Runesmith ought to!" You roar at him, voice carrying over the din.

A small part of you boggles at bringing up what is proper for the Guild and art of Runesmithing when Thungni is literally meters away from you but is shouted down by the indignance of a Dwarf who has been wronged.

"You dare claim such a thing against me?" Thorek thunders back, fists curling and foot taking an aggressive step forwards.

"I speak no falsehood Stonefoot! Come down here and prove yourself right or take back your insult, I will not be cowed by your blustering!" you counter back heatedly.

"Enough," a voice speaks, tone calm yet with an authority that is undeniable.

Thungni has not altered His position on His throne since this entire debacle began, but where before His presence was more akin to a clear summit it is now akin to a storm-ravaged peak. An aura of controlled power, held back by a will so titanic that it dwarfs the mountains themselves, that can nevertheless be felt and seen from kilometres around.

Many settle down, those standing returning to their seats while tempers are cooled by a sudden, ice-cold, deluge of shame and embarrassment.

"Enough," Thungni repeats, and those few stragglers rush to join their compatriots.

The Ancestor waits for a solid minute, eyes roving through the House and cowing any possible dissent. The loudest and most aggressive supporters and detractors, some who were Dwarfs over a millennium old, bow their heads like chastised beardlings when Thungni stares at them; their eyes unable to meet the Ancestor's for longer than a moment or two.

Then Thungni turns His imposing gaze down onto you.

Eyes, bluer than the richest sapphires and that occasionally twinkle with scintillating multihued light, bear down on you with only a fraction of the force a Will older than many of the oldest Holds can bring to bear. A part of you quails in fear and terror, the rest are frozen in a state of shock and awe. It's as if you are a geode cracked open upon an anvil, inner thoughts laid bare beneath that gaze.
You do not look away, and that is acknowledged.
After what feels like an eternity, they eventually look away and the rumbling voice begins again.

"Knowledge has been given freely and without insult intended. Take it or dismiss it at your own discretion, as has ever been your right. Snorri Klausson, Runelord of Kraka Drakk, have you any final remarks?" He says, looking at you expectantly.

"No Lord Ancestor."

"Have any within the House a question to ask Snorri, son of Klaus, Runelord of Kraka Drakk?"

A half-minute of silence meets the Ancestor. Meanwhile, you quietly pick up your papers, hand them to the aides and Reckoners who have scuttled in to bring the rest of your things away, then march back to your seat. Thungni turns away from you and addresses the entire room.
 
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Here is a thought if we do take up the title of heir Snorri might have to revisit his opinions on remarriage that was brought up centuries ago in quest. Since his status will shoot through the roof and some traditionalists moght try and pair him with a traditionalist to balance things out. They might propose a marriage simply to soothe tensions in the guild between the radicals and the traditionalists if Snorri takes charge.
 
OK so lets imagine something that is near identical to the chainforger some radical brings up a runic solution that that offends conservatives since it uses very specialized runes (an utterly mad way to look at the process of magical engineering for the record).

Lets say Snori parrots Thungi: Knowledge freely given

The conservative runesmith answers with a hearty 'Fuck you Klausson you're the same as him'.

What next?

Fundamentally the idea that we can act like Thungi is unworkable since we do not have his authority.
 
OK so lets imagine something that is near identical to the chainforger some radical brings up a runic solution that that offends conservatives since it uses very specialized runes (an utterly mad way to look at the process of magical engineering for the record).

Lets say Snori parrots Thungi: Knowledge freely given

The conservative runesmith answers with a hearty 'Fuck you Klausson you're the same as him'.

What next?

Fundamentally the idea that we can act like Thungi is unworkable since we do not have his authority.
Okay, so first of all the issue was not that the runes were too specialised, it was that they were too specialised and Snorri was saying these runes are so important everyone in the KA should know them.
And almost all of the runes that everyone in the KA knows trace their way back through the master apprentice chian straight to Thungni.
So what was upsetting was that to the conservative, Snorri was saying he's the second best thing to Thungni and he was doing it with a second rate too specialised rune.

Secondly the theory at least is that being the heir would give Snorri the authority to say so and the conservative would shut up, because Snorri is the second closest thing.
E:
Here is a thought if we do take up the title of heir Snorri might have to revisit his opinions on remarriage that was brought up centuries ago in quest. Since his status will shoot through the roof and some traditionalists moght try and pair him with a traditionalist to balance things out. They might propose a marriage simply to soothe tensions in the guild between the radicals and the traditionalists if Snorri takes charge.
Thats not really how things work in this guild
Runesmiths are definitely one of the more meritocratic guilds because all of them are related to each other in some way or another, so family ties are slightly less important.
 
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Preparing myself for the northern schism to come the moment Vragni hears the words "Heir of Thungni" and Snorri in the same sentence. Because while we all like to joke about the rivalry peoples seem to forget he is the most influential Conservative in the far north and has valid (in conservative eyes) views on Snorri setting himself as a guild master.
After all while we had no purposeful part in it there are beardlings openly calling themselves Snorriist. He will be filing a Grudge and the politics between kings(and queen) in the far north will probably fragment over this as he's got the ear of his hold and there close holds who already chafe over Drakk's influence.
 
Could you give an example of said neutral arbitration? Because I feel like we are doing a lot of theoretical pontificating and not a lot of considering what this stuff is.
Don't use Thungni's silence on X to assume Y position is the only position to take.

AKA what Thungni did in our case.

To a more day to day it'll make our actions retroactively acceptable to more traditional members, but that's the side effect of Dawi Society.

Wait, it wasn't Thungni's silence that whatshis name used to start a fight, it was that he felt Snorri was over reaching the importance of his discovery when it was infact one weird trick mail hates. Secondly, two guys throwing fists in the conclave is not censure, 51% of the conclave against the rest would be

The example Evillevi is thinking of is when we revealed the Chainmaker 1.0 and another dwarf got angry because of the low quality runes.
Thungni 'arbitrated' by saying "knowledge is offered freely, take it or leave it as you like." or something like that.

As I said above, I don't agree with the way that situation has been read.
I think we would never agree because of our position on what silence mean.

To me Thungni silence is like proving a negative, incredibly difficult and I default that anything that Thungni had to arbitrate is indicative that he was silent on the topic before hand. Namely because I can't believe that a Runelord would forget any of Thungni's words

But to be fair you are right that the reading doesn't indicate either way what the root cause is. I assume the root cause was that Thungni's cumulative silence on all the relevant topics (censuring someone for presenting a bad product, the right to offer knowledge) while whathisname sheer rage could have overrided all sense on the topic.
 
Okay, so first of all the issue was not that the runes were too specialised, it was that they were too specialised and Snorri was saying these runes are so important everyone in the KA should know them.
And almost all of the runes that everyone in the KA knows trace their way back through the master apprentice chian straight to Thungni.
So what was upsetting was that to the conservative, Snorri was saying he's the second best thing to Thungni and he was doing it with a second rate too specialised rune.

The problem I think is that while most dwarfs will take our word for what was on that plinth the Ven diagram of runesmiths willing to tell Snori to fuck off and the ones who think he lied is probably a circle.
 
Don't use Thungni's silence on X to assume Y position is the only position to take.

AKA what Thungni did in our case.

To a more day to day it'll make our actions retroactively acceptable to more traditional members, but that's the side effect of Dawi Society.
Worth pointing out, that Thorek Stonefoot did not base his argument on a previous time that Thungni said "That rune is bad and you should feel bad."
So not exactly using a position on X to determine Y.
 
I suspect that Thungni was frequently silent so people could come to their own conclusions on matters and not end up scouring records of his remarks to find an answer to any given dispute.
Especially considering Thungni was contacting other runesmiths as recently as a couple years ago, and one of those runesmiths was going through the trials only shortly after we did.

Having someone else going through the trials just after we did is frankly an embarrassment, considering how long we sat on the riddle and that we didn't even solve most of it ourselves.
The only reason Kazador was there is because he learned of our group and followed us down. He still had to complete the trials, but we led him right to them.
 
[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.
 
Once again, if Thungi wanted to withdraw that riddle he could have done it at any time. He's the one who set this up as riddle+dungeon so he is directly responsible for us letting it collect dust for a few decades and then winning anyway. These are the parameters he set. On that note he could also have said that the riddle had to be solved without help and he did not. Any and all weirdness is directly at his feet since he had total control of this whole process
And if Thungni absolutely wanted whoever finds the Hammer to become his Heir, he could have said so 🤷‍♂️
People speak of this as if it was a duty imposed by Thungni, but it is merely an offer. Thungni granted us a choice here, not an obligation. It is perfectly fair of us to refuse it.
 
[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.
 
And if Thungni absolutely wanted whoever finds the Hammer to become his Heir, he could have said so 🤷‍♂️
People speak of this as if it was a duty imposed by Thungni, but it is merely an offer. Thungni granted us a choice here, not an obligation. It is perfectly fair of us to refuse it.

He did, the plinth was pretty clear. He was also kind of an idiot about the whole thing so sucks to be him.
 
[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.
 
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