RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[Heavygenium]

I've seen a lot of people argue that if we didn't want to become heir, we shouldn't have picked up the hammer.

However, as others have pointed out, if we wanted to be worthy of becoming heir, we shouldn't have let the riddle sit in a dark corner collecting dust for a long time, then make Karstah and Yorri solve most of it.

Especially considering Thungni was contacting other runesmiths as recently as a couple years ago, and one of those runesmiths was going through the trials only shortly after we did.

Having someone else going through the trials just after we did is frankly an embarrassment, considering how long we sat on the riddle and that we didn't even solve most of it ourselves.

Karstah has almost as much legitimate claim to the title of heir as Snorri does, to be honest.

 

[Mister Phantom]

[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.

 

[Snypehunter007]

[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.

 

[shadowwar18]

[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.

 

[DragonParadox]

I've seen a lot of people argue that if we didn't want to become heir, we shouldn't have picked up the hammer.

However, as others have pointed out, if we wanted to be worthy of becoming heir, we shouldn't have let the riddle sit in a dark corner collecting dust for a long time, then make Karstah and Yorri solve most of it.

Especially considering Thungni was contacting other runesmiths as recently as a couple years ago, and one of those runesmiths was going through the trials only shortly after we did.

Having someone else going through the trials just after we did is frankly an embarrassment, considering how long we sat on the riddle and that we didn't even solve most of it ourselves.

Karstah has almost as much legitimate claim to the title of heir as Snorri does, to be honest.

Click to shrink...

Once again, if Thungi wanted to withdraw that riddle he could have done it at any time. He's the one who set this up as riddle+dungeon so he is directly responsible for us letting it collect dust for a few decades and then winning anyway. These are the parameters he set. On that note he could also have said that the riddle had to be solved without help and he did not. Any and all weirdness is directly at his feet since he had total control of this whole process

 

[xXxBlueViperxXx]

[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.

 

[Wing101r]

Once again, if Thungi wanted to withdraw that riddle he could have done it at any time. He's the one who set this up as riddle+dungeon so he is directly responsible for us letting it collect dust for a few decades and then winning anyway. These are the parameters he set. On that note he could also have said that the riddle had to be solved without help and he did not. Any and all weirdness is directly at his feet since he had total control of this whole process

Click to shrink...

Also having a Heir and Master able to help in solving the riddle are perfectly legitimate way to solve it.

There was nothing stopping us bring Hearthguard along for a reason.

 

[Rukia]

I've seen a lot of people argue that if we didn't want to become heir, we shouldn't have picked up the hammer.

However, as others have pointed out, if we wanted to be worthy of becoming heir, we shouldn't have let the riddle sit in a dark corner collecting dust for a long time, then make Karstah and Yorri solve most of it.

Especially considering Thungni was contacting other runesmiths as recently as a couple years ago, and one of those runesmiths was going through the trials only shortly after we did.

Having someone else going through the trials just after we did is frankly an embarrassment, considering how long we sat on the riddle and that we didn't even solve most of it ourselves.

Karstah has almost as much legitimate claim to the title of heir as Snorri does, to be honest.

Click to shrink...

We didn't even know that this quest would be about being Thungi's Heir, we certainly weren't informed before we started. So retroactively judging the choices we took based on knowledge we didn't have is very pretensions. This vote is literally our first choice on the matter.

Personally, I'm actually surprisingly upset that Claim seems to be winning. I just have zero interest in everything that lay down that path, and a lot of the arguments put forth by the Claim voters seem to be completely missing the consequences of Snorri "fitting himself like a glove" to Thungi. I'm not surprised by voter reading comprehension failure, just annoyed.

 

[Dark as Silver]

I'm happy for this vote to go either way which is why I've mostly spent my time arguing about things that I felt were unjustified on either side.
However ultimately I'm voting refuse because I just don't know how to carry on Thungni's legacy through Snorri's lens of what it means to be an heir. We didn't know the guy at all, and now Snorri is going to have to spend (more) time worrying about how exactly Thungni would have preferred things to be handled until the ship of theseus moves far enough that he's doing things his own way.
Sorry Thungni you bumbled this one, Snorri was the wrong person to be offered the heir position and if you wanted an heir you should have done more when still walking the earth to prepare one rather than setting up a bunch of riddles that only paid fruit after the heir lineage has been severed for decades after you left and it falls into the lap of a guy who was not expecting this when he walked into the first trial.

[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.

Not quite.

The Guild needs anyuone as a vague leader to function. Currently all qualified candidates can't or absolutely refuse to take charge. No Dawi institution can survive under such a scenario

Alric is going on a couple of centuries of abject refusal. Yorri just removed himself from history, etc.

Click to shrink...

If the guild needs a leader to function can someone finally explain what Thungni does that is irreplacable.
The best anyone has given is mediating political disputes and I've already said why someone as politically divisive as Snorri is a bad candidate for that role.

And the thing that I haven't seen mentioned (might be cuz I'm blond lol) is that whether we mark ourselves as Heir or not, the rest of the Karaz-Ankor will have their own views on it and I think more than a few will see this as Snorri being chosen as Heir.

Click to shrink...

People have mentioned it but nobody has actually explained so what?
So what if some people view us as a heir ish candidate. This is significantly less of an issue than actually claiming to be the heir. Beardlings will be beardlings and their foolishness is very different to a Runelord already looked at as making himself a guildmaster declaring himself the heir. (And I'm not even too concerned about that level of issue given how little Thungni ever did).
People are more generally concerned about how Snorri will act in response to being the heir. The weight of Snorris own expectations.

 

[DragonParadox]

I'm happy for this vote to go either way which is why I've mostly spent my time arguing about things that I felt were unjustified on either side.
However ultimately I'm voting refuse because I just don't know how to carry on Thungni's legacy through Snorri's lens of what it means to be an heir. We didn't know the guy at all, and now Snorri is going to have to spend (more) time worrying about how exactly Thungni would have preferred things to be handled until the ship of theseus moves far enough that he's doing things his own way.
Sorry Thungni you bumbled this one, Snorri was the wrong person to be offered the heir position and if you wanted an heir you should have done more when still walking the earth to prepare one rather than setting up a bunch of riddles that only paid fruit after the heir lineage has been severed for decades after you left and it falls into the lap of a guy who was not expecting this when he walked into the first trial.

[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.


If the guild needs a leader to function can someone finally explain what Thungni does that is irreplacable.
The best anyone has given is mediating political disputes and I've already said why someone as politically divisive as Snorri is a bad candidate for that role.

People have mentioned it but nobody has actually explained so what?
So what if some people view us as a heir ish candidate. This is significantly less of an issue than actually claiming to be the heir. Beardlings will be beardlings and their foolishness is very different to a Runelord already looked at as making himself a guildmaster declaring himself the heir. (And I'm not even too concerned about that level of issue given how little Thungni ever did).
People are more generally concerned about how Snorri will act in response to being the heir. The weight of Snorris own expectations.

Click to shrink...

Er... you know what this actually convinced me. Thungi is in fact a fuck up who tried to take the whole mysterious mentor too far and does not deserve an heir. Snori isn't prepared for this since no one prepared him.

[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.

 

[lin4t]

[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.

Voting so far seems to favour the claiming title.

Not really unexpected since the results of accepting aren't really blatantly negative.

 

[Reading king]

[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.

You all think we know better than Thungni!?

 

[Dark as Silver]

Er... you know what this actually convinced me. Thungi is in fact a fuck up who tried to take the whole mysterious mentor too far and does not deserve an heir. Snori isn't prepared for this since no one prepared him.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, a couple of people have pointed out Snorri's responsibility in this mess, however very few fingers have been pointed at the guy who set this whole thing up.

Now to some degree, I can understand it, its the sort of not really blasphemy but Snorri wouldn't even consider thinking this of his god to put the blame there, but as soulcake said:

If you wanna be bold insane, by Snorri's own metrics if anyone else had done what Thungni did as a way of determining their heir, they would not be adequately preparing them.

but He's Him.

Click to shrink...

E:

[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.

You all think we know better than Thungni!?

Click to shrink...

Until Thungni comes and explains his thought process, yes I do.
And Thungni never told a dwarf what to do outside of his teaching, so I also think Thungni would respect my right to think so.

 

[DragonParadox]

You all think we know better than Thungni!?

Click to shrink...

I think Thungi's was an idiot when it came to this whole trial. Look at what it actually tested:

1. Solving a riddle
2. Some basic philosophical questions
3. Resistance to a few mental effects
4. A bit of physical combat

He could have knocked this out in a few days of testing in person at the most. There was no practical need for this whole runic puzzle dungeon and the fact that it self destructed at the end just adds to the self-indulgence of it all.

Look at how great an artisan I am! Whoo!

Yeah I'm sure when the Time of Woes came around those dwarfs were glad you didn't build anymore ancestral grade weapons or train more runesmiths in place of this boondoggle.

 

[Evillevi]

If the guild needs a leader to function can someone finally explain what Thungni does that is irreplacable.

Click to shrink...

He didn't do anything socially and that's the problem.

The Rune guild is operating in a weird situation of highly independent Runesmiths who are desperately using their independence to follow Thungni non-existant footsteps. And because they're highly independent there is no practical way to stop them from self destructing if they , very likely, do something stupid.

Normally the Ancestor God has a massive wealth of data and stories and stuff to guide their followers as Role models. Thungni has essentially no story on how to be a Good Runelord beyond Rune good.

What the guild needs is for any leader to step up and guide the guild so they don't socially self destruct if and when something needs to be changed.

Er... you know what this actually convinced me. Thungi is in fact a fuck up who tried to take the whole mysterious mentor too far and does not deserve an heir. Snori isn't prepared for this since no one prepared him.

Click to shrink...

That's a fair take.

My personal one is that THungni was so vague that we get literally tongue'd slap by Yorri that the position is a lot more open ended by design, but that's my take

Until Thungni comes and explains his thought process, yes I do.

Click to shrink...

That's fair.

Thungni AFAWK only chose a handful of people to undertake 1 of 3 trials/gifts. Anyone selected for any trial is , inherently, already qualified to do it. Important is that Yorri revealed that skill is not the main qualifier, mentality or ideals are.

IMO there's is going to be essentially no restriction because one interpretation is that the mere act of selecting someone post humously implies that they're ideals are suitable to be Durin's Heir and indirectly Thungni's heir

 

[Gabriel_TFA]

I feel like people not realise it is harder to fit to the glove than make the glove fit your hand. What I think is that being Heir itself is symbolic and lot less becoming like Thungi. Thungi as far as I understand, did not make any of the runesmiths he taught to be like him. All of the thinking "fitting like a glove" is Snorri's own mind thinking THAT.

 

[grimely]

Well, there will be restrictions. They just won't be external. Instead we'll be shackled by Snorri's interpretation of Thugni, constantly going "What Would Thugni Do?" before we take any actions ourselves. Because, well, that's who Snorri is.

 

[Fenrir44]

I've seen a lot of people argue that if we didn't want to become heir, we shouldn't have picked up the hammer.

However, as others have pointed out, if we wanted to be worthy of becoming heir, we shouldn't have let the riddle sit in a dark corner collecting dust for a long time, then make Karstah and Yorri solve most of it.

Especially considering Thungni was contacting other runesmiths as recently as a couple years ago, and one of those runesmiths was going through the trials only shortly after we did.

Having someone else going through the trials just after we did is frankly an embarrassment, considering how long we sat on the riddle and that we didn't even solve most of it ourselves.

Karstah has almost as much legitimate claim to the title of heir as Snorri does, to be honest.

Click to shrink...

The riddle does not equal the sheer trials had to be done she is good but not Runelord levels yet

 

[DragonParadox]

I feel like people not realise it is harder to fit to the glove than make the glove fit your hand. What I think is that being Heir itself is symbolic and lot less becoming like Thungi. Thungi as far as I understand, did not make any of the runesmiths he taught to be like him. All of the thinking "fitting like a glove" is Snorri's own mind thinking THAT.

Click to shrink...

Yeah well Snori thinks that and if Thungi didn't want him to he could have said so by moving his mouth-parts up and down like a normal person.

Also he did not in fact teach all runesmiths since that is not how teaching works, he invented the discipline they make use of. It is the same reason everyone to learns basic geometry is not a student of Pythagoras.

 

[Jaffa]

[X] Claim the Title of Heir: [Cost: ???] Gain title: Heir of Thungni, ??? You claim a position that has remained in doubt since Durin died. By Thungni's word, the hammer you would now wield confirms that you are His Heir. Elevating your authority to that of the Ancestor's eldest children, living or dead. You would not, could not be a tyrant of course, but still.

 

[Dark as Silver]

He didn't do anything socially and that's the problem.

The Rune guild is operating in a weird situation of highly independent Runesmiths who are desperately using their independence to follow Thungni non-existant footsteps. And because they're highly independent there is no practical way to stop them from self destructing if they , very likely, do something stupid.

Normally the Ancestor God has a massive wealth of data and stories and stuff to guide their followers as Role models. Thungni has essentially no story on how to be a Good Runelord beyond Rune good.

What the guild needs is for any leader to step up and guide the guild so they don't socially self destruct if and when something needs to be changed.

Click to shrink...

So this is worrying me because it sounds a lot like guildmaster and I do not want to take that step for a couple of reasons but the sticking points I feel would be that Snorri doesn't want that either and it would probably cause a schism.

 

[Fenrir44]

Snorrie wont be guild master he will be doing the same kind of role thungni had to be a neutral arbiter of when things get heated and to give a weak nutch when there needs to be change

 

[Dark as Silver]

I feel like people not realise it is harder to fit to the glove than make the glove fit your hand. What I think is that being Heir itself is symbolic and lot less becoming like Thungi. Thungi as far as I understand, did not make any of the runesmiths he taught to be like him. All of the thinking "fitting like a glove" is Snorri's own mind thinking THAT.

Click to shrink...

?

However ultimately I'm voting refuse because I just don't know how to carry on Thungni's legacy through Snorri's lens of what it means to be an heir.

Click to shrink...

I think people do realise that, however people aren't going to vote claim and then hope that theres a follow up in which Snorri can revise his own thinking of what a Heir should be.

E:

Snorrie wont be guild master he will be doing the same kind of role thungni had to be a neutral arbiter of when things get heated and to give a weak nutch when there needs to be change

Click to shrink...

I can't simaltaneously argue two opposing view points from the same post.
What you are saying is the opposite of what Evillevi said:

He didn't do anything socially and that's the problem.

Click to shrink...

In response to Snorri being a neutral arbiter its important to realise he fucking isn't.
Khazagar is by far the largest political landmine we've ever known the runesmiths to have to deal with and by virtue of making it Snorri has taken a non neutral position.
The pro or anti positions of should there be big guild hall like building cannot be mediated by the guy who built the first one.

 

[DragonParadox]

Snorrie wont be guild master he will be doing the same kind of role thungni had to be a neutral arbiter of when things get heated and to give a weak nutch when there needs to be change

Click to shrink...

And who decides on the definition of 'neutrality' and 'change'? Just saying the words don't help much because we have never seen Thungi do anything really beside nominate Snera and hand out a riddle book. not a lot of room to figure out what he would want in an heir.

 

[Dark as Silver]

And who decides on the definition of 'neutrality' and 'change'? Just saying the words don't help much because we have never seen Thungi do anything really beside nominate Snera and hand out a riddle book. not a lot of room to figure out what he would want in an heir.

Click to shrink...

Did you somehow forget Khazagar?