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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Typical Thungni. "I showed you it could be done. Now if you want one of your own, build it yourself."

Which is why he never taught a single dwarf how to carve the Rune of Stone, he just showed it to them.... oh wait. The 'teaching style' seems a mite arbitrary in what he will and will not teach. My bet is still that he's an former Old One student and bound by oaths not to actively teach the high end stuff, it is the only thing I can think of that could explain the lines being drawn here.
 
I think it was previously said that Dawi suffer from a syndrom that they often when they see something Ancestor created/did, they start to have doubts about themselves. Their exvude towards when other try something daring is: "You think you are better than Ancestors?!" And similar phrases.
 
[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.

I'm voting against taking the Title of Heir because:
1. It could be a misinterpretation by Snorri that taking the Hammer is to claim the title of Heir.
2. I think Alric being the de facto Heir works out well and I don't think that Snorri should take over being Heir from him.
 
[X] Refuse the Title of Heir: [Cost: Nothing] Gain ???. You will take up this hammer, you will use it, but you are your own Dwarf with your own goals. The burden of carrying Thungni's Will, of being His Heir, is one you choose not to carry. Someone or no one can claim it for all you care, but it will not be you.

I'm voting against taking the Title of Heir because:
1. It could be a misinterpretation by Snorri that taking the Hammer is to claim the title of Heir.
2. I think Alric being the de facto Heir works out well and I don't think that Snorri should take over being Heir from him.
Congratulations lucky voter no.300
 
I haven't the foggiest in what i think we should do tbh

I like the Heir option for the political power and crafting Potential- we could potentially create a whole new way for rune smithing culture

However

It means we kinda are stuck in the Uber political box forever
 
1. It could be a misinterpretation by Snorri that taking the Hammer is to claim the title of Heir.
2. I think Alric being the de facto Heir works out well and I don't think that Snorri should take over being Heir from him.
1. The words from Thungi straight up say that to become an heir is to take a hammer.
2. Alric rejects being The Heir. And he would not agree to it either.
 
1. The words from Thungi straight up say that to become an heir is to take a hammer.
2. Alric rejects being The Heir. And he would not agree to it either.
We don't know what going on with Alric, he may have never been offered it, he may have rejected it.
Theres a reason that Durin the lost is only assumed to have been the heir. Thungni has never formally confirmed an heir before.
 
Also he did not in fact teach all runesmiths since that is not how teaching works, he invented the discipline they make use of. It is the same reason everyone to learns basic geometry is not a student of Pythagoras.
A fun reminder that it wasn't even Thungni alone that figured out how to teach Runes, but a coordinated effort of Thungni and Grungni. Thungni saw the Glittering Realm and discovered Runes, but only by working with Grungni was it made possible for normal dwarfs to learn them and the ability to use Runes is passed down by Grungni's lineage not Thungni's.

Thungni is someone who at the end of the day I think cannot really… communicate what he truly understands and so tries to teach via examples, parables, and metaphor.

The Guild of Runesmiths was founded by a man who couldn't teach but could inspire, and who with help translating what he seemingly intuitively could understand into Runelore.

Thungni, I will give some props did work with others to teach them but I imagine he was one of the professors at a college that is a genius and really shouldn't be teaching because their brain is just wired to understand calculus and set theory and so cannot explain well foundational theorems or steps. He can work the greatest wonders at the top of the field, but asking him to show his work is like asking someone to reinvent the proof that 1+1=2.

Durin I think may have been crushed by that. By the consternation of seeing perfection and being a genius but still always falling short of the example set before him by what surely felt like miles.

So, what happens? Thungni goes the other way. Hands off and set the challenge for those with a mindset to try, be willing, and capable of taking his place without being buried by the weight of legacy.

Was it great? No, it is a complete nightmare of a method but it's yielding results so it wasnt the worst idea.

But the Guild needs someone who can actually be a teacher of teachers and a student of students. Snorri still learns so much from the people he taught and the Runelords he works with, synthesizing together vast arrays of tunes into ever greater heights and inventing ways to allow those less gifted to follow in his footsteps. Snorri has worked relentlessly on Windsight and creating ways for Karstah, and inevitably others in time, to see what he sees and learn what he's learned without needing centuries of trial and error.

The Guild needs someone who ensures that a stairway to success is built, for the Runesmiths of tomorrow to follow. That the body of Runelore and technique can withstand the rest of time rather than be as ephemeral as the life of a single Dwarf.

Taking the position of Heir will involve doing what Thungni wants? Sure, let's advance society by leaps and bounds by both teaching and examples. Let's invent whole new methods of using magic that no one ever had imagined impossible with others' help. Let's ensure that Runelore is only passed on to the worthy, even if the wait to find someone worthy takes longer than the lifetime of the Runelord who discovered it.

Snorri, I think, has the chance as Thungni's Heir to via Durin's line to elevate the Runesmith's from a collection of fully independent thinkers into a collection of a thousand independent gears that collectively turn the wheel of progress forward. Picking up slack where one fails until it is replaced by another in the future.

That's why I want to claim the title of Heir. Because not even Thungni created Runes alone for all he invented the field. And Snorri is the one best able to understand that as the source of the mantle he'd be taking onto his shoulders.
 
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Which is why he never taught a single dwarf how to carve the Rune of Stone, he just showed it to them.... oh wait. The 'teaching style' seems a mite arbitrary in what he will and will not teach. My bet is still that he's an former Old One student and bound by oaths not to actively teach the high end stuff, it is the only thing I can think of that could explain the lines being drawn here.
I'm fairly sure the reality is Thungni just takes after Grungni, who expressed a very similar attitude.
"They're my grandchildren! I should expect more frankly, now that they know I could do it. The problem with the youth these days," he says with a shake of the head.

With this all being said, the practical role of Thungni and any Heir of theirs seems to be the person who has the formal power to impose their view of Runesmithing, and then set a firm example of not doing that so as to dissuade everybody else in the guild from trying to do it through open political bullshit. He keeps the Burudin and other such highly opinionated groups in their holes where they belong instead of wheeling and dealing where impressionable dwarves can see.

Which anyone can do to be quite honest, the only requirements are to believe in the independence of Runesmiths and to command sufficient respect. And the latter is what the most assuredly very impressive, all the more so for only now existing in the awed memories of witnesses, Trial is for. Everyone who knew there was a Trial will just superimpose the greatest challenge they can imagine and figure Snorri beat that.
 
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Congratulations lucky voter no.300
Thank you! Gotta say: a bit disappointed that I wasn't showered by balloons or confetti.

1. The words from Thungi straight up say that to become an heir is to take a hammer.
2. Alric rejects being The Heir. And he would not agree to it either.
1. If I'm not mistaken, Snorri got the idea that to claim the hammer is to claim the title of Heir because of a part of the poem that stated that to claim the hammer is to claim the seat of the Lost. First, to it is unknown if the Lost refers to Durrin and it is unknown if he was the heir.

Second, as the QM stated, it is Snorri's interpretation of the poem:

Emphasis mine.

Snorri came to that conclusion after the thought about the poem more.

2. He may refuse the title of heir, but Alric is by operation of society, the de facto Heir. And everyone treats him as such- even Snorri.

Edit: it probably also means something that Alric himself refuses to take the title. I don't want to vote for Snorri to claim the title in such circumstances.
 
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I think we need to claim ourselves as heir, if only so we have the soft power to maintain order during future runelord conclaves and to prevent people from dismissing future dwarves who come forward with innovations like how thungni did for snorri with the chainforger
 
Obviously Snorri should be the Heir because he's so much smarter and a better decision maker than other Runelords.

Since he's capable of bringing 300 human minds to bear on major decisions, that makes him maybe... I dunno, five times as smart as other Runelords.

Yes, this is a joke. ;)
 
A fun reminder that it wasn't even Thungni alone that figured out how to teach Runes, but a coordinated effort of Thungni and Grungni. Thungni saw the Glittering Realm and discovered Runes, but only by working with Grungni was it made possible for normal dwarfs to learn them and the ability to use Runes is passed down by Grungni's lineage not Thungni's.

Thungni is someone who at the end of the day I think cannot really… communicate what he truly understands and so tries to teach via examples, parables, and metaphor.

The Guild of Runesmiths was founded by a man who couldn't teach but could inspire, and who with help translating what he seemingly intuitively could understand into Runelore.

Thungni, I will give some props did work with others to teach them but I imagine he was one of the professors at a college that is a genius and really shouldn't be teaching because their brain is just wired to understand calculus and set theory and so cannot explain well foundational theorems or steps. He can work the greatest wonders at the top of the field, but asking him to show his work is like asking someone to reinvent the proof that 1+1=2.

Durin I think may have been crushed by that. By the consternation of seeing perfection and being a genius but still always falling short of the example set before him by what surely felt like miles.

So, what happens? Thungni goes the other way. Hands off and set the challenge for those with a mindset to try, be willing, and capable of taking his place without being buried by the weight of legacy.

Was it great? No, it is a complete nightmare of a method but it's yielding results so it wasnt the worst idea.

But the Guild needs someone who can actually be a teacher of teachers and a student of students. Snorri still learns so much from the people he taught and the Runelords he works with, synthesizing together vast arrays of tunes into ever greater heights and inventing ways to allow those less gifted to follow in his footsteps. Snorri has worked relentlessly on Windsight and creating ways for Karstah, and inevitably others in time, to see what he sees and learn what he's learned without needing centuries of trial and error.

The Guild needs someone who ensures that a stairway to success is built, for the Runesmiths of tomorrow to follow. That the body of Runelore and technique can withstand the rest of time rather than be as ephemeral as the life of a single Dwarf.

Taking the position of Heir will involve doing what Thungni wants? Sure, let's advance society by leaps and bounds by both teaching and examples. Let's invent whole new methods of using magic that no one ever had imagined impossible with others' help. Let's ensure that Runelore is only passed on to the worthy, even if the wait to find someone worthy takes longer than the lifetime of the Runelord who discovered it.

Snorri, I think, has the chance as Thungni's Heir to via Durin's line to elevate the Runesmith's from a collection of fully independent thinkers into a collection of a thousand independent gears that collectively turn the wheel of progress forward. Picking up slack where one fails until it is replaced by another in the future.

That's why I want to claim the title of Heir. Because not even Thungni created Runes alone for all he invented the field. And Snorri is the one best able to understand that as the source of the mantle he'd be taking onto his shoulders.

As someone else pointed out above after the short list picking the name out of a hat would have had a roughly similar effect as that maze and the hat would not have taken as long to make. Alternatively write the riddle and the rune choices on a piece of paper and grade those along with some light sparring. My specific problem isn't with him being unable to teach the good stuff, that could have good reasons behind it it's with the Build a Better Mousetrap approach to what were some pretty basic tests.
 
1. If I'm not mistaken, Snorri got the idea that to claim the hammer is to claim the title of Heir because of a part of the poem that stated that to claim the hammer is to claim the seat of the Lost. First, to it is unknown if the Lost refers to Durrin and it is unknown if he was the heir.
Look, just because we're only 99% sure, doesn't mean that we should give serious consideration to that 1%.
What other ways do you think that the line could be interpreted. Who else could the lost be, what other seat could the lost hold?
As far as anyone has been able to suggest the only other lost it could be refering to would be Ancestor gods who've left themselves. And its not a significant distinction if we're seeking to be the replacement of Durin or the successor to Thungni, either way we're his heir.
E:
I think we need to claim ourselves as heir, if only so we have the soft power to maintain order during future runelord conclaves and to prevent people from dismissing future dwarves who come forward with innovations like how thungni did for snorri with the chainforger
We have soft power. We're the oldest runelord in the north. A member of the Burudin. And the Chain Forger. And we made Khazagar.
People are seriously blowing one guy out of proportion, it was just that. ONE GUY.
 
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As someone else pointed out above after the short list picking the name out of a hat would have had a roughly similar effect as that maze and the hat would not have taken as long to make. Alternatively write the riddle and the rune choices on a piece of paper and grade those along with some light sparring. My specific problem isn't with him being unable to teach the good stuff, that could have good reasons behind it it's with the Build a Better Mousetrap approach to what were some pretty basic tests.
What you are missing is that the maze creates a story. Not a story about its actual contents, but the story that there was a maze made by Thungni with the Hammer and position as a prize. It's mythmaking, validating the position in the eyes of dwarves by elevating the person who succeeded. Presumably, Alric will come out to announce that he can confirm there was in fact a maze with such a prize in it made by his father. The fact he didn't make it here first firmly indicates to me that he didn't want the position and will be happy to put it on someone else.

And of course, because it is a secret only a few ever laid eyes on, it is every bit as impressive as the person hearing the story can imagine. Only we know how hard or easy it truly was and Snorri himself was pretty impressed so what he does say of it will surely sell it.
 
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What you are missing is that the maze creates a story. Not a story about its actual contents, but the story that there was a maze made by Thungni with the Hammer and position as a prize. It's mythmaking, validating the position in the eyes of dwarves by elevating the person who succeeded.

Given the literal worship of Thungi and Co I do not think he needed that. 'I passed a test given by Thungi' is enough no matter the contents or the mundane details of said test.
 
Look, just because we're only 99% sure, doesn't mean that we should give serious consideration to that 1%.

Thungni's not real. At a certain point you just got to to trust that soulcake is not going to pull the rug under us by having the character show back up in 500 years and say, "Oh wait, I didn't mean become my heir literally."

And if that's not going to happen in game, I don't really care that the fictional dwarf being modeled in soulcake's head made some kind of mistake and implied that the person who took the Hammer would be Heir without actually meaning that. Seems like a ficitonal dwarf being modeled in soulcake's head problem!
 
that one guy necessitated Thungni himself to actually speak up
necessitated... necessitated.
What do you think would have happened if he didn't speak up?
That the Runesmiths guild would schism into the Chain Forgers and the not Chain Forgers?
Thungni chose to speak up, but like stopping two runelords wasting an hour screaming names at each other isn't really the sort of thing that will cause the guild to fall apart in his abscense. After all, they've spent hundreds of years arguing over how to cook lamb and that hasn't caused the failure of society.
And it also doesn't mean that if Thungni hadn't spoken then that nobody else would have been able to do so.
I find it funny that our set is made of defensive pieces aka. armour and cape. Now we need a talisman to create a full set.
I dunno what you've heard about the Ash Storm but its only defensive in the way a good offense is a good defense.
 
As someone else pointed out above after the short list picking the name out of a hat would have had a roughly similar effect as that maze and the hat would not have taken as long to make. Alternatively write the riddle and the rune choices on a piece of paper and grade those along with some light sparring. My specific problem isn't with him being unable to teach the good stuff, that could have good reasons behind it it's with the Build a Better Mousetrap approach to what were some pretty basic tests.
The tests I think were basic because the real dilemma of his situation was if he picked someone too clever by half he'd be back at square one.

Your comment holds well, because I think this honestly was more of a Final Round Interview than a full on trial. The trial was Thungni deciding if you got the riddle or not.

After that, it became a matter of Thungni showing you everything he could do as the example of, "This is what is possible."

And then the hammer for claiming the position.

And Thungni, after everything that's happened to him and the decision by all tbe Ancestor God's to leave… you get a final interview to take the Job he left behind or decide that it should end.

I just think both the story to be told would be interesting and that Snorri is the kind of person who wants to improve things, as a self-acknowledged inveterate fixer and fiddler.

Thungni made bad decisions, but that's also the reason not to let his example remain the only one that Runesmiths have to aspire to.
 
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