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Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:

I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Sitting in the dwarven afterlife, watching that weird old coot with the mole rate obsession become the ancestor god of the mole rat people.
 
[Semi Canon] Mastery of One is Mastery of All, +15 to a Roll, Increased Elf and Brana contact and discussion [USED]
Mastery of One is Mastery of All

It was a...well, not a hot day, really, those didn't happen this far north (though in fairness it hardly got as cold as often as some would like to imply) but a warmer day as Archmage Charoth sat on a stone overlooking a small depression in the topside forest, his legs dangling off the wind-hewn rock; though the rest of the view was covered, choked even, with a great, long lasting pile of snow, the rock was cleared--and as his staff lightly glowed it was not hard to tell what had melted the water. Straight across from him, crouched quite leonine, Lightningclaw simply ignored the cold and the snow, helped by the gift he had presented to her as a gift for her hospitality: ignoring any of the obvious gifts as either potentially insulting or redundant by virtue of living among the Dwarfs, it had been an earring with a jewel of Caledor's Repose that lightly burned with Aqshy, in case of the deepest storms. For his part he had switched into simpler, even thicker robes, as well as a hood. In his right hand he held a small cup, filled with still hot Qulfi, its scent filling the air with dark, bitter, and invigorating scents.

And between the two of them their apprentices stood, motionless, waiting for the order. Daraval finally cracked and dressed in warmer clothing as his master suggested, a long, dangling-sleeved robe of night blue over an amber brown under robe, with gloves of brown and boots of blue, all made of thick silk and leather. His wand is nowhere to be seen; instead he is unarmed, simply waiting, utterly motionless. Charoth's Windsight sees as Daraval gathers the Aethyr and is slightly relieved that he seems at least, finally, to have cracked how to deal with the indirect presence of so many Runesmiths strangling the Aethyr, if not directly in their presence then when they are far enough away. He looked at Lightningtouched and she looked back and a moment later nodded.

"Begin."

And with that Thunderkissed immediately moved, the snow launched out of the way of her wings with a great clap of thunder that rustled the trees for a hundred feet in every direction and yet managed not to knock them over, her claws, plain and not touched by magic, sought his apprentice's flesh. They were sharp, they were hungry, they were keen and they would have certainly bit into his flesh, perhaps not have maimed or killed but he certainly would have been done with the sparring.

And found nothing but mist as Daraval moved himself, tossed himself, through time and space a dozen feet behind her and launched a small ball of fire, really not even enough to hurt an elf but for their pride. Of course they would have singed Thunderkissed's feathers past the point of uselessness until they were molted, and so taken away some of her mobility. If she had blocked like his student expected, instead of sending a blast of ice straight at the ball. It melted, of course, but it also by rights dispelled the fire, kept it from her.

He sipped at his drink and watched the two stare each other down again, and then he felt it, his apprentice reaching into the Winds and drawing out the Azyr, which was pleasing since not so long ago the Ghurbrain would never have reached for anything so "transcendental, detached, and shiftless." He was further pleasantly surprised that his apprentice managed the shaping, not impressively in a white room sense but compared to where he had been at the beginning of his training it certainly was. Call it another five years, ten tops, and he would be ready for his final belt, and to begin learning the secrets of Qhaysh.

Of course, that did not keep Thunderkissed, born of Azyr, molded by it, touched by it, immersed in it by birth and by training, from unweaving the bolt of electricity--not even really lightning--long before it could touch her. But then he grasped his student's mind as Daraval slammed as much Ghur into his flesh as he could, followed by Chamon; not enough to gain a Mark, to damn himself from the higher mysteries and be left lessened (and as much as the Branakroki had proved the ability of those touching a single Wind, to him at least, to lose the ability to touch all of them would be nothing but a lessening, like one of the Dwarfs born without a beard or one of the Brana without wings) but enough that, as he raced at the griffon, whose eyes widened, his flesh nails had become hard and iron-shod and his hair long and shiny as metal.

Not the lesson Charoth had intended to teach; but it was a good lesson for the Archmage. His student could still surprise him.

The Griffon was likely still stronger than his student; but not so much stronger, now, that as his clenched fist slammed into her beak (though he pulled the punch, fortunately for everyone involved) she could ignore it. She swiped at him with her own hard claws, but he danced past all those swipes to strike her again. She screamed, and he was tossed aside, landing hard--and she was plainly mad at that point. Charoth tensed, but looked to the elder Griffon for guidance and she was still only watching, though her claws were sticking into the ground.

Then the skies began to crackle, and lightning struck the trees, and at that point he decided somebody had to do something. So he snatched the spell still burning on his apprentice, an impressive melding together of both the Bestial and Heavenly Winds, and snuffed it as he had so many daemons, hoping that the other Griffon would follow suit on her apprentice. And indeed soon enough the sky stopped its localized storm, as Lightningclaw took the storm into herself.

Charoth leaped down with a sense of ease he did not feel to the still magic saturated field, trying to avoid the still burning bits of grass and rapidly melting snow that was becoming steam all around him. He approached his apprentice with purpose, drained the cup before it could get cold. What would the boy think? Would he rage that his master had kept him from a proper victory? Accept the umbrage that was coming his way as well as the lecture, but let it fester? Seethe to cope that he had been put on the backstep, magically, by someone who could wield only one of the Winds, compared to his seven (eight, if you were willing to accept that acceptable-at-best bit of lightning work as wielding Azyr)?

Instead, Daraval was smiling, sweating as he looked at the griffon, his robe lightly singed by its brief but eventful encounter with a living thunderstorm. "That was the best fight I've had in some time, Thunderkissed. The living storm was quite something."

"It was...an experience," the Griffon said in a voice that seemed calmed from where her eyes had said she'd been not even a minute ago as her master also approached, looking even less happy than he was. "I did not expect you to come racing at me swinging your bare hands."

"Most of us would be too smart for that, good lady." Charoth cut in, interrupting the two before they could indulge this any further. "But you tell an apprentice he is gifted one time, and he decides that means bad ideas are suddenly well within his grasp. This was meant to teach you patience, Daraval; that you are a mage of Ulthuan, not a brawler born of Khaine's blood." Well, that, and try and force him to pick apart her Azyr casting rather than running to Ghur--again--and risk an Arcane Mark, branding his soul as surely as the Daemons were, but that was...slightly too much, at this point; call it coddling the boy, but that thought weighed heavy on his apprentice, and warding the boy off from spell-casting--period--for risk of it was not a superior situation to the Mark itself. "I expected more thought from you."

"And you," Lightningclaw said, her voice not quite as dismal as her face suggested--though perhaps that was simply him not quite reading her right yet, "you were meant to show foresight. To know where he was going, before he knew, and then dispatch him; instead you almost blasted aside this forest with your storm."

"It is clear," they said in unison, "that you require more instruction. To that end,"

"You," Lightningclaw said to her apprentice, "will be enchanting a dozen axes under the watchful gaze of myself and a Master Runesmith to ensure quality." The griffon blanched but said nothing, though her claws dug channels into the soil. That...would be quite some time to work under the shortfolk and their perfectionism.

"As for you," Charoth said, "you will be taking one of the glass spheres I have brought, and notating the position of the stars and their movements over the next six months." Boring work, the closest thing to a new development the influence of the False Moon, the Hell Moon, the Husband of Slaanesh, upon the stars and even that was not so terrible unless it actually fully shone--and if it did, well, they both had bigger problems, like the beastmen sure to follow. Daraval sighed, hunching his shoulders in defeat.

"Yes, master. It will be done."

More elf and bird adventures.
 
Mastery of One is Mastery of All

It was a...well, not a hot day, really, those didn't happen this far north (though in fairness it hardly got as cold as often as some would like to imply) but a warmer day as Archmage Charoth sat on a stone overlooking a small depression in the topside forest, his legs dangling off the wind-hewn rock; though the rest of the view was covered, choked even, with a great, long lasting pile of snow, the rock was cleared--and as his staff lightly glowed it was not hard to tell what had melted the water. Straight across from him, crouched quite leonine, Lightningclaw simply ignored the cold and the snow, helped by the gift he had presented to her as a gift for her hospitality: ignoring any of the obvious gifts as either potentially insulting or redundant by virtue of living among the Dwarfs, it had been an earring with a jewel of Caledor's Repose that lightly burned with Aqshy, in case of the deepest storms. For his part he had switched into simpler, even thicker robes, as well as a hood. In his right hand he held a small cup, filled with still hot Qulfi, its scent filling the air with dark, bitter, and invigorating scents.

And between the two of them their apprentices stood, motionless, waiting for the order. Daraval finally cracked and dressed in warmer clothing as his master suggested, a long, dangling-sleeved robe of night blue over an amber brown under robe, with gloves of brown and boots of blue, all made of thick silk and leather. His wand is nowhere to be seen; instead he is unarmed, simply waiting, utterly motionless. Charoth's Windsight sees as Daraval gathers the Aethyr and is slightly relieved that he seems at least, finally, to have cracked how to deal with the indirect presence of so many Runesmiths strangling the Aethyr, if not directly in their presence then when they are far enough away. He looked at Lightningtouched and she looked back and a moment later nodded.

"Begin."

And with that Thunderkissed immediately moved, the snow launched out of the way of her wings with a great clap of thunder that rustled the trees for a hundred feet in every direction and yet managed not to knock them over, her claws, plain and not touched by magic, sought his apprentice's flesh. They were sharp, they were hungry, they were keen and they would have certainly bit into his flesh, perhaps not have maimed or killed but he certainly would have been done with the sparring.

And found nothing but mist as Daraval moved himself, tossed himself, through time and space a dozen feet behind her and launched a small ball of fire, really not even enough to hurt an elf but for their pride. Of course they would have singed Thunderkissed's feathers past the point of uselessness until they were molted, and so taken away some of her mobility. If she had blocked like his student expected, instead of sending a blast of ice straight at the ball. It melted, of course, but it also by rights dispelled the fire, kept it from her.

He sipped at his drink and watched the two stare each other down again, and then he felt it, his apprentice reaching into the Winds and drawing out the Azyr, which was pleasing since not so long ago the Ghurbrain would never have reached for anything so "transcendental, detached, and shiftless." He was further pleasantly surprised that his apprentice managed the shaping, not impressively in a white room sense but compared to where he had been at the beginning of his training it certainly was. Call it another five years, ten tops, and he would be ready for his final belt, and to begin learning the secrets of Qhaysh.

Of course, that did not keep Thunderkissed, born of Azyr, molded by it, touched by it, immersed in it by birth and by training, from unweaving the bolt of electricity--not even really lightning--long before it could touch her. But then he grasped his student's mind as Daraval slammed as much Ghur into his flesh as he could, followed by Chamon; not enough to gain a Mark, to damn himself from the higher mysteries and be left lessened (and as much as the Branakroki had proved the ability of those touching a single Wind, to him at least, to lose the ability to touch all of them would be nothing but a lessening, like one of the Dwarfs born without a beard or one of the Brana without wings) but enough that, as he raced at the griffon, whose eyes widened, his flesh nails had become hard and iron-shod and his hair long and shiny as metal.

Not the lesson Charoth had intended to teach; but it was a good lesson for the Archmage. His student could still surprise him.

The Griffon was likely still stronger than his student; but not so much stronger, now, that as his clenched fist slammed into her beak (though he pulled the punch, fortunately for everyone involved) she could ignore it. She swiped at him with her own hard claws, but he danced past all those swipes to strike her again. She screamed, and he was tossed aside, landing hard--and she was plainly mad at that point. Charoth tensed, but looked to the elder Griffon for guidance and she was still only watching, though her claws were sticking into the ground.

Then the skies began to crackle, and lightning struck the trees, and at that point he decided somebody had to do something. So he snatched the spell still burning on his apprentice, an impressive melding together of both the Bestial and Heavenly Winds, and snuffed it as he had so many daemons, hoping that the other Griffon would follow suit on her apprentice. And indeed soon enough the sky stopped its localized storm, as Lightningclaw took the storm into herself.

Charoth leaped down with a sense of ease he did not feel to the still magic saturated field, trying to avoid the still burning bits of grass and rapidly melting snow that was becoming steam all around him. He approached his apprentice with purpose, drained the cup before it could get cold. What would the boy think? Would he rage that his master had kept him from a proper victory? Accept the umbrage that was coming his way as well as the lecture, but let it fester? Seethe to cope that he had been put on the backstep, magically, by someone who could wield only one of the Winds, compared to his seven (eight, if you were willing to accept that acceptable-at-best bit of lightning work as wielding Azyr)?

Instead, Daraval was smiling, sweating as he looked at the griffon, his robe lightly singed by its brief but eventful encounter with a living thunderstorm. "That was the best fight I've had in some time, Thunderkissed. The living storm was quite something."

"It was...an experience," the Griffon said in a voice that seemed calmed from where her eyes had said she'd been not even a minute ago as her master also approached, looking even less happy than he was. "I did not expect you to come racing at me swinging your bare hands."

"Most of us would be too smart for that, good lady." Charoth cut in, interrupting the two before they could indulge this any further. "But you tell an apprentice he is gifted one time, and he decides that means bad ideas are suddenly well within his grasp. This was meant to teach you patience, Daraval; that you are a mage of Ulthuan, not a brawler born of Khaine's blood." Well, that, and try and force him to pick apart her Azyr casting rather than running to Ghur--again--and risk an Arcane Mark, branding his soul as surely as the Daemons were, but that was...slightly too much, at this point; call it coddling the boy, but that thought weighed heavy on his apprentice, and warding the boy off from spell-casting--period--for risk of it was not a superior situation to the Mark itself. "I expected more thought from you."

"And you," Lightningclaw said, her voice not quite as dismal as her face suggested--though perhaps that was simply him not quite reading her right yet, "you were meant to show foresight. To know where he was going, before he knew, and then dispatch him; instead you almost blasted aside this forest with your storm."

"It is clear," they said in unison, "that you require more instruction. To that end,"

"You," Lightningclaw said to her apprentice, "will be enchanting a dozen axes under the watchful gaze of myself and a Master Runesmith to ensure quality." The griffon blanched but said nothing, though her claws dug channels into the soil. That...would be quite some time to work under the shortfolk and their perfectionism.

"As for you," Charoth said, "you will be taking one of the glass spheres I have brought, and notating the position of the stars and their movements over the next six months." Boring work, the closest thing to a new development the influence of the False Moon, the Hell Moon, the Husband of Slaanesh, upon the stars and even that was not so terrible unless it actually fully shone--and if it did, well, they both had bigger problems, like the beastmen sure to follow. Daraval sighed, hunching his shoulders in defeat.

"Yes, master. It will be done."

More elf and bird adventures.
I love these two nuggets. The idea of having a Master Runesmith overseeing enchanting in a Brana mode is interesting and makes sense, though it is obviously novel! I like it!
 
Had an idea for a Talisman to replace ours:

Drekazi a Gazan
(The Great Undertaking on the Barren Plains)
Life arises between the mountains and the foothills, battered by fire and wind and the earth itself. Knowing they shall not survive exposed in the open air it crafts a home.

-Master Rune of Valaya

It makes a hearth. Life protects itself, and is protected too, by those who know best, the elders. All that would threaten life, so vulnerable at that stage, is endured.

-Rune of Spelleating

Even the Winds of Magic are endured and survived, dangerous as they are, some by harnessing them, and the truly wise by breaking them. Such does life want to endure, to live. Even as the sky twists and rains fire and a new moon is born, they eke out a living.

-
Rune of Daemonslaying

Indeed, so much does life want to endure that when ultimate evil--a threat beyond mortal comprehension--rears its head and threatens the world, mortal life stands against it. The selfish ambition of the Schemer falters as Grimnir makes a sacrifice to light the fires of hope; the venomous, mindless hatreds of the Murderer fail as Aenarion chooses life over death; the deception of the Pursuer is shattered as the King of the Skies finds perfection in honor; and the despair of the Rotting is denied as Caledor's faith is rewarded by a friend.

So the general thrust is the trajectory of sapient life on the world from its earliest beginnings in primordial ages, to crafting civilizations, to fighting to protect them during the Great Incursion. While the Elves are mentioned in the theming, in my mind's eye they wouldn't show up more than, at the absolute most, very obliquely, as in "maybe a single, possible mention." I believe Daemon-Slaying is one of those Runes that can be used on anything since it's simple, yes?
 
Had an idea for a Talisman to replace ours:

Drekazi a Gazan
(The Great Undertaking on the Barren Plains)
Life arises between the mountains and the foothills, battered by fire and wind and the earth itself. Knowing they shall not survive exposed in the open air it crafts a home.

-Master Rune of Valaya

It makes a hearth. Life protects itself, and is protected too, by those who know best, the elders. All that would threaten life, so vulnerable at that stage, is endured.

-Rune of Spelleating

Even the Winds of Magic are endured and survived, dangerous as they are, some by harnessing them, and the truly wise by breaking them. Such does life want to endure, to live. Even as the sky twists and rains fire and a new moon is born, they eke out a living.

-
Rune of Daemonslaying

Indeed, so much does life want to endure that when ultimate evil--a threat beyond mortal comprehension--rears its head and threatens the world, mortal life stands against it. The selfish ambition of the Schemer falters as Grimnir makes a sacrifice to light the fires of hope; the venomous, mindless hatreds of the Murderer fail as Aenarion chooses life over death; the deception of the Pursuer is shattered as the King of the Skies finds perfection in honor; and the despair of the Rotting is denied as Caledor's faith is rewarded by a friend.

So the general thrust is the trajectory of sapient life on the world from its earliest beginnings in primordial ages, to crafting civilizations, to fighting to protect them during the Great Incursion. While the Elves are mentioned in the theming, in my mind's eye they wouldn't show up more than, at the absolute most, very obliquely, as in "maybe a single, possible mention." I believe Daemon-Slaying is one of those Runes that can be used on anything since it's simple, yes?
Hmm, reading it over I think these runes would not combo together. Specifically because Daemonslaying is a damage enhancer against daemons, while Valaya's rune creates a buffer against magical harm and spelleating absorbs magic cast at the user. Daemonslaying should work with either of these individually, but I don't see (Enhance damage against daemons) working with (Absorbs magic from failed enemy casts into a defensive buffer + Eat spells cast at the user) when those two effects are together.
 
Hmm, reading it over I think these runes would not combo together. Specifically because Daemonslaying is a damage enhancer against daemons, while Valaya's rune creates a buffer against magical harm and spelleating absorbs magic cast at the user. Daemonslaying should work with either of these individually, but I don't see (Enhance damage against daemons) working with (Absorbs magic from failed enemy casts into a defensive buffer + Eat spells cast at the user) when those two effects are together.
I could see it for a specific Daemonslaying(Tzeentch) given that's Fuck the Magic Guys, but that is probably just Grudge(Tzeentch).
 
Hmm, reading it over I think these runes would not combo together. Specifically because Daemonslaying is a damage enhancer against daemons, while Valaya's rune creates a buffer against magical harm and spelleating absorbs magic cast at the user. Daemonslaying should work with either of these individually, but I don't see (Enhance damage against daemons) working with (Absorbs magic from failed enemy casts into a defensive buffer + Eat spells cast at the user) when those two effects are together.
Valaya also appears to have some anti daemon properties as it shows up in the Daemonward combo.
Its hard to predict what the rule of form changes would do to Daemonslaying here and I Fire and Cold turn to offer defense against the element in an armour setup, so its reasonable to guess that Daemonslaying would change to defend more effectively against daemons. Rune of chain lightning is the only Talismanic rune that changes an attack as far as I know. And even that might need to be invoked.
 
Had an idea for a Talisman to replace ours:

Drekazi a Gazan
(The Great Undertaking on the Barren Plains)
Life arises between the mountains and the foothills, battered by fire and wind and the earth itself. Knowing they shall not survive exposed in the open air it crafts a home.

-Master Rune of Valaya

It makes a hearth. Life protects itself, and is protected too, by those who know best, the elders. All that would threaten life, so vulnerable at that stage, is endured.

-Rune of Spelleating

Even the Winds of Magic are endured and survived, dangerous as they are, some by harnessing them, and the truly wise by breaking them. Such does life want to endure, to live. Even as the sky twists and rains fire and a new moon is born, they eke out a living.

-
Rune of Daemonslaying

Indeed, so much does life want to endure that when ultimate evil--a threat beyond mortal comprehension--rears its head and threatens the world, mortal life stands against it. The selfish ambition of the Schemer falters as Grimnir makes a sacrifice to light the fires of hope; the venomous, mindless hatreds of the Murderer fail as Aenarion chooses life over death; the deception of the Pursuer is shattered as the King of the Skies finds perfection in honor; and the despair of the Rotting is denied as Caledor's faith is rewarded by a friend.

So the general thrust is the trajectory of sapient life on the world from its earliest beginnings in primordial ages, to crafting civilizations, to fighting to protect them during the Great Incursion. While the Elves are mentioned in the theming, in my mind's eye they wouldn't show up more than, at the absolute most, very obliquely, as in "maybe a single, possible mention." I believe Daemon-Slaying is one of those Runes that can be used on anything since it's simple, yes?

Would work as a good antimagic talisman, our current one improved in many ways. May well combo as part of its general antiwarp thematic, that it is the nature of Stone as the world, something that shatters magic and unmakes the aether.

I don't think you're getting your connection to the world that was out of it through life because:

The life that grew to be in the World that Was is not the life that stood against the Great Incursion.

The former being things like the Fimir and Dragon Ogres who fell hard to Chaos.
The latter being the Scions of the Old Ones, who were created wholesale in many ways as species and thus have very little connection to the world that was.

All our visions of the World that Was have been about the many many eons of a world moving over millions of years, a world that changes as the eons go by as though it were a living thing. The history of the Scions of the Old Ones goes back five or ten thousand years at best, their tale is not part of it because even our oldest remnants is only the last second on the world clock itself.
 
Valaya also appears to have some anti daemon properties as it shows up in the Daemonward combo.
Its hard to predict what the rule of form changes would do to Daemonslaying here and I Fire and Cold turn to offer defense against the element in an armour setup, so its reasonable to guess that Daemonslaying would change to defend more effectively against daemons. Rune of chain lightning is the only Talismanic rune that changes an attack as far as I know. And even that might need to be invoked.
I figure the most straightforward possible change is that because Talismanic runes buff the user, protects the user, or generate utility effects, it simply generally buff's the users damage against daemons with any attack (instead of just attacks using the weapon that holds Daemonslaying, as in its weapon form). It could flip this around and make the produced barrier a bad touch effect for Daemons, but fundamentally the proposed combo is trying to get a Attack UP rune to synergize with two Defense UP runes.

Individually the Attack UP rune could work with either of the other two runes, but we know stone cold that a rune which can combo with the other two members of its combo individually may not combo with the other two members when they are together. That's what made the Iron Arm not generate a combo; Stone works with Awakening or Forged Limbs but not Awakening and Forged Limbs.
 
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I figure the most straightforward possible change is that because Talismanic runes buff the user, protects the user, or generate utility effects, it simply generally buff's the users damage against daemons with any attack (instead of just attacks using the weapon that holds Daemonslaying, as in its weapon form). It could flip this around and make the produced barrier a bad touch effect for Daemons, but fundamentally the proposed combo is trying to get a Attack UP rune to synergize with two Defense UP runes.

Individually the Attack UP rune could work with either of the other two runes, but we know stone cold that a rune which can combo with the other two members of its combo individually may not combo with the other two members when they are together. That's what made the Iron Arm not generate a combo; Stone works with Awakening or Forged Limbs but not Awakening and Forged Limbs.

Having a mix of attack and defence coding into items shouldn't interfere as long as the items has the rest of its messaging fine.

I mean look at some of our items that stand as two - one splits between attack and def up
Skarrenbakraz - MGrungni is clearly defence orientated, Lightning and fury are both offence. But all three of them turn towards lightning so it works.
Drakes Mantle - Rune of Frost is offensive, Parrying and Sanctuary are defensive. Hailmantle is still a good combo only made obsolete after we got a Master Rune that did it better.
Reckoner - Master Rune of Disguise is defensive, it hides you, Penetrating and Accuracy are offensive, but the theme overrides and lets them work together.
StormWrath - Rune of Grungni is defensive on armour, MBlizzards and Lightning are not. and a very offensive combo made of it.
Zharrgral - Conduction and Smednir are offensive runes here, but Thungni is not and the addition of it greatly expanded the weapons abilities when used.


Themes of attack or defence are not the uniting feature on the item given.
MValaya is brought from Spellbreaking, Warding and Stone. It is the nature of Stone that resists the winds that would change it.
Spelleating is also about enforcing order upon the power of the aether.
In that respect Daemonslaying continues the theme of breaking the power of the Warp, reasserting that which is Real in its place.

The three are united as reinforcing the nature of the World itself as something that rejects the changes wrought by the winds, if it does combo its going to be as something that asserts the primacy of the World itself over the Aether, there is plenty of strength in such meanings.
Very good for a battle talisman.
Defeats the purpose of an Anvil Forging Talisman.
 
Hmm, reading it over I think these runes would not combo together. Specifically because Daemonslaying is a damage enhancer against daemons, while Valaya's rune creates a buffer against magical harm and spelleating absorbs magic cast at the user. Daemonslaying should work with either of these individually, but I don't see (Enhance damage against daemons) working with (Absorbs magic from failed enemy casts into a defensive buffer + Eat spells cast at the user) when those two effects are together.
The biggest issue is that the Narrative it's supposed to take on has, as its climax, essentially slaying daemons.

Thinking it over, there are two Runes that I can think to replace Daemon-Slaying with:

-Rune of Warding (because really, what is slaying something except permanently warding it off?:V)
-Rune of Spellbreaking (Magic was broken under the effect of Valiant Grimnir and the sacrifice of mortals)

Would work as a good antimagic talisman, our current one improved in many ways. May well combo as part of its general antiwarp thematic, that it is the nature of Stone as the world, something that shatters magic and unmakes the aether.

I don't think you're getting your connection to the world that was out of it through life because:

The life that grew to be in the World that Was is not the life that stood against the Great Incursion.

The former being things like the Fimir and Dragon Ogres who fell hard to Chaos.
The latter being the Scions of the Old Ones, who were created wholesale in many ways as species and thus have very little connection to the world that was.

All our visions of the World that Was have been about the many many eons of a world moving over millions of years, a world that changes as the eons go by as though it were a living thing. The history of the Scions of the Old Ones goes back five or ten thousand years at best, their tale is not part of it because even our oldest remnants is only the last second on the world clock itself.
While the Dwarfs and Elves and Brana are the ones mentioned since they are the ones the Dwarfs know in my mind's eye it would be drawing on all life that dared stand against Chaos, both on the World that Was (limited as it was I do get the feeling the oaths the Dragon Ogres made with Chaos pre-dates the Old Ones and therefore implicitly includes anyone who fought them, including the Dragons proper and the Primevals) as well as their progenitors (IE the Old Ones, who may just be that old).
 
Having a mix of attack and defence coding into items shouldn't interfere as long as the items has the rest of its messaging fine.

I mean look at some of our items that stand as two - one splits between attack and def up
Skarrenbakraz - MGrungni is clearly defence orientated, Lightning and fury are both offence. But all three of them turn towards lightning so it works.
Drakes Mantle - Rune of Frost is offensive, Parrying and Sanctuary are defensive. Hailmantle is still a good combo only made obsolete after we got a Master Rune that did it better.
Reckoner - Master Rune of Disguise is defensive, it hides you, Penetrating and Accuracy are offensive, but the theme overrides and lets them work together.
StormWrath - Rune of Grungni is defensive on armour, MBlizzards and Lightning are not. and a very offensive combo made of it.
Zharrgral - Conduction and Smednir are offensive runes here, but Thungni is not and the addition of it greatly expanded the weapons abilities when used.


Themes of attack or defence are not the uniting feature on the item given.
MValaya is brought from Spellbreaking, Warding and Stone. It is the nature of Stone that resists the winds that would change it.
Spelleating is also about enforcing order upon the power of the aether.
In that respect Daemonslaying continues the theme of breaking the power of the Warp, reasserting that which is Real in its place.

The three are united as reinforcing the nature of the World itself as something that rejects the changes wrought by the winds, if it does combo its going to be as something that asserts the primacy of the World itself over the Aether, there is plenty of strength in such meanings.
Very good for a battle talisman.
Defeats the purpose of an Anvil Forging Talisman.
Before we go further into this, I must emphasize that Runes work by a rule of Function first and then theme. Soul has also stated that Combos are literal and that function is incredibly important at a root level for runes. We can use themes as short hand to discuss functions, and in fact have for a long time, but our creations that didn't Combo support my point of Function primacy; see the Iron Arm, Otrek's Armor, and Dragon's Spite. All three failed not because the theme was wrong or incoherent, they all had solid intended meanings, but they didn't Combo because the functions of the chosen runes underlying the themes didn't work out as intended.

The Master Rune of Grungni creates a protective barrier of wind that protects the user, meaning that it is has elemental facets as part of what it does which then shape the physical manifestation of the rune's effects which in turn strongly influences its thematics of storms. The reason I consider it a Storm Rune is because of how its effect manifests. Lightning flings an elemental projectile at the target, and Fury drives attacks by way of unanswered anger and Grudges.

Master Rune of Grungni, Necessary Ingredients: [T2] Oathgold: The winds of magic are taken, absorbed and made into an array that blocks physical projectiles.
Master Rune of Grungni, Necessary Ingredients: [T2] Oathgold: A more localized, and yet more potent version of its banner counterpart's effect. Projectiles are flung back at their source with twice the force.

It works out because Lightning obviously tuned the Master Rune to include lightning effects in the barrier (See the lightning filled storm), which would make the barrier itself harmful and because the rune of lightning lets one cast lightning bolts at targets, leaving a space for Fury to act by enhancing both the intensity of the harmful barrier itself and the blasts of lightning. The Reagents then did a bunch of stuff to alter and change the expressions and their sheer power.

Drake's Mantle works out not due to the balance of attack vs defense, but because on armor the Rune of Frost seemingly generates a aura or swirling field of cold which is then made to reflect attacks by the rune of Parrying and also have its magical defensive aspects enhanced Sanctuary.

What I was doing when I made the Attack UP and Defense UP comparison was me trying to frame my point in a simpler way to illustrate the problem I perceive. This is not me stating that themes of attack or defense are going to make or break an item. Like you point out and I agree, they're not going to do that.

To walk back to where I'm coming from, I'm not discussing themes because I want to evaluate what those runes on Voikirium's proposed talisman Do, in how their effects manifest.

Spelleating is about enforcing order on the aether, I agree with you about that thematic interpretation. It achieves that theme and actualizes it by eating magic cast at the user. Daemonslaying breaks the power of the Warp by enhancing the damage done to daemons, by doing bad things to the magic they are made of. Valaya's rune resists the winds that would change it or its user by breaking down and absorbing magic and then forming a barrier from that chewed up magic.

Together Valaya and Spelleating produce an effect of (Eating all magic that comes its way to produce a barrier around the user). The two ways I can see Daemonslaying potentially fitting into that produced function is by either making a daemon burning barrier, or the entire combo flipping in order to provide absorbed magical energy into Daemonslaying to enhance attacks even further than Daemonslaying can do alone. The problem I see is that I don't think the second is likely at all due to one rune having to rebalance the entire Combo, and the first because there's no retributive function in that first chunk, nor some external hostile manifestation like a blast of energy, for Daemonslaying to act through, so there's nothing for it to easily hook onto immediately.

The biggest issue is that the Narrative it's supposed to take on has, as its climax, essentially slaying daemons.

Thinking it over, there are two Runes that I can think to replace Daemon-Slaying with:

-Rune of Warding (because really, what is slaying something except permanently warding it off?:V)
-Rune of Spellbreaking (Magic was broken under the effect of Valiant Grimnir and the sacrifice of mortals)


While the Dwarfs and Elves and Brana are the ones mentioned since they are the ones the Dwarfs know in my mind's eye it would be drawing on all life that dared stand against Chaos, both on the World that Was (limited as it was I do get the feeling the oaths the Dragon Ogres made with Chaos pre-dates the Old Ones and therefore implicitly includes anyone who fought them, including the Dragons proper and the Primevals) as well as their progenitors (IE the Old Ones, who may just be that old).
I could see Warding very neatly tying the whole thing off into a solid "Make a very stronk Barrier" Combo. Valaya and Spelleating make a (Eating all magic that comes its way to produce a barrier around the user) and then Warding harnesses that energy to synergize with Valaya in barrier production. Basically coming at the two goals of Eat Magic and Produce Barrier of the Master Rune, and assigning a lesser rune to each of those goals.

Spellbreaking I could also see working as well as Warding, and possibly having a more interesting theme, by way of making it possible for the Combo to break down more powerful magics cast at the user. It very strongly resists magic, breaking it down for Spelleating and Valaya to make easier use of, where Valay then turns around and makes a barrier out of the whole thing.
 
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hey guys? Did we ever discuss the possibility of using a complete ancestor gift chain to create a runic ancestor locator to find the ancestors after they leave?
 
We haven't. Might be possible, but whatever runes would be used are currently out of our reach.
gazul run of ties? valaya's space compression rune? and rune of thugni for magic?

place item of target into runic artifact, open compressed space tunnel to target?

edit: add one more rune if we crack the 4 rune material?
 
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hey guys? Did we ever discuss the possibility of using a complete ancestor gift chain to create a runic ancestor locator to find the ancestors after they leave?
A better question is; would they let us? And even if we did, what then? Ask them to come back? Ask them for more secrets? Not sure they'd be happy with that.
 
Before we go further into this, I must emphasize that Runes work by a rule of Function first and then theme. Soul has also stated that Combos are literal and that function is incredibly important at a root level for runes. We can use themes as short hand to discuss functions, and in fact have for a long time, but our creations that didn't Combo support my point of Function primacy; see the Iron Arm, Otrek's Armor, and Dragon's Spite. All three failed not because the theme was wrong or incoherent, they all had solid intended meanings, but they didn't Combo because the functions of the chosen runes underlying the themes didn't work out as intended.

The Master Rune of Grungni creates a protective barrier of wind that protects the user, meaning that it is has elemental facets as part of what it does which then shape the physical manifestation of the rune's effects which in turn strongly influences its thematics of storms. The reason I consider it a Storm Rune is because of how its effect manifests. Lightning flings an elemental projectile at the target, and Fury drives attacks by way of unanswered anger and Grudges.

Master Rune of Grungni, Necessary Ingredients: [T2] Oathgold: The winds of magic are taken, absorbed and made into an array that blocks physical projectiles.
Master Rune of Grungni, Necessary Ingredients: [T2] Oathgold: A more localized, and yet more potent version of its banner counterpart's effect. Projectiles are flung back at their source with twice the force.

It works out because Lightning obviously tuned the Master Rune to include lightning effects in the barrier (See the lightning filled storm), which would make the barrier itself harmful and because the rune of lightning lets one cast lightning bolts at targets, leaving a space for Fury to act by enhancing both the intensity of the harmful barrier itself and the blasts of lightning. The Reagents then did a bunch of stuff to alter and change the expressions and their sheer power.

Drake's Mantle works out not due to the balance of attack vs defense, but because on armor the Rune of Frost seemingly generates a aura or swirling field of cold which is then made to reflect attacks by the rune of Parrying and also have its magical defensive aspects enhanced Sanctuary.

What I was doing when I made the Attack UP and Defense UP comparison was me trying to frame my point in a simpler way to illustrate the problem I perceive. This is not me stating that themes of attack or defense are going to make or break an item. Like you point out and I agree, they're not going to do that.

To walk back to where I'm coming from, I'm not discussing themes because I want to evaluate what those runes on Voikirium's proposed talisman Do, in how their effects manifest.

Spelleating is about enforcing order on the aether, I agree with you about that thematic interpretation. It achieves that theme and actualizes it by eating magic cast at the user. Daemonslaying breaks the power of the Warp by enhancing the damage done to daemons, by doing bad things to the magic they are made of. Valaya's rune resists the winds that would change it or its user by breaking down and absorbing magic and then forming a barrier from that chewed up magic.

Together Valaya and Spelleating produce an effect of (Eating all magic that comes its way to produce a barrier around the user). The two ways I can see Daemonslaying potentially fitting into that produced function is by either making a daemon burning barrier, or the entire combo flipping in order to provide absorbed magical energy into Daemonslaying to enhance attacks even further than Daemonslaying can do alone. The problem I see is that I don't think the second is likely at all due to one rune having to rebalance the entire Combo, and the first because there's no retributive function in that first chunk, nor some external hostile manifestation like a blast of energy, for Daemonslaying to act through, so there's nothing for it to easily hook onto immediately.


I could see Warding very neatly tying the whole thing off into a solid "Make a very stronk Barrier" Combo. Valaya and Spelleating make a (Eating all magic that comes its way to produce a barrier around the user) and then Warding harnesses that energy to synergize with Valaya in barrier production. Basically coming at the two goals of Eat Magic and Produce Barrier of the Master Rune, and assigning a lesser rune to each of those goals.

Spellbreaking I could also see working as well as Warding, and possibly having a more interesting theme, by way of making it possible for the Combo to break down more powerful magics cast at the user. It very strongly resists magic, breaking it down for Spelleating and Valaya to make easier use of, where Valay then turns around and makes a barrier out of the whole thing.

You see my first read on why DaemonSlaying does more damage would be that it breaks down structures in that magic that allow them to persist.

So tearing apart the existence of a Daemon. (DaemonSlaying)
Drawing in the power that was used to sustain it. (SpellEating)
And then using that power to create the buff that firms up the nature of reality. (MValaya)

Would be how I was pulling those three functions together in my head.
Using the fuel of the death of Daemons to empower and force more of them out of its presence.

As for the bit above that, I am in total agreement with what you wrote there.
Crap I was using theme as the bits that they have in common, rather than narrative theme. This is likely me using words wrong sorry about that.
 
A better question is; would they let us? And even if we did, what then? Ask them to come back? Ask them for more secrets? Not sure they'd be happy with that.
i mean after things like the skaven invasion and slann earthquakes and the orc migrations, after all of that, when sigmar comes around, would it be more dutiful to not try to ask the ancestor gods to come back even if they refuse or just flat out refuse to ask for their help despite always praying to them in the temples?
 
Crap I was using theme as the bits that they have in common, rather than narrative theme. This is likely me using words wrong sorry about that.
Ahh, oops. Sorry for jumping on you about it!

You see my first read on why DaemonSlaying does more damage would be that it breaks down structures in that magic that allow them to persist.

So tearing apart the existence of a Daemon. (DaemonSlaying)
Drawing in the power that was used to sustain it. (SpellEating)
And then using that power to create the buff that firms up the nature of reality. (MValaya)

Would be how I was pulling those three functions together in my head.
Using the fuel of the death of Daemons to empower and force more of them out of its presence.

As for the bit above that, I am in total agreement with what you wrote there.
Hrm. So the attacks against daemonic entities would empower the barrier?

Okay that's Funky, but it might work as a third possibility. Again I don't think its very likely but huh.

You know. I could see it working like that if the Master Rune of Valaya was a Weapon rune in this combo. That kind of 'leeching' effect is definitely in line with the Weapon category.
 
i mean after things like the skaven invasion and slann earthquakes and the orc migrations, after all of that, when sigmar comes around, would it be more dutiful to not try to ask the ancestor gods to come back even if they refuse or just flat out refuse to ask for their help despite always praying to them in the temples?
In canon they never came back, even for the End Times (although Valaya did get fridged offscreen). Maybe we could convince them, but that's a pretty big maybe.

If they wanted to guide the dwarfen race forever, I think they would have stayed.
 
Hmm. Not sure how the Daemonward combo works tho, via MR Valaya, Sanctuary, and Determination. Does the Rune of Sanctuary empower the MR Valaya by anchoring the antimagic effect to the army as well, instead of just as a mobile magic-dispelling turret? But where does the Rune of Determination go in this combo?
 
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