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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Jreengus said:
I woulda sworn we'd used the prods for collaborative research before. Going back through the past times we used Yorri's help I found the above, which to me reads as Yorri and Snorri colaborating to develop the unfinished rune he had. Not as clear cut as I remembered but more than just Yorri purely trading knowledge he already had.
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As Yorri says he did do a bit more work with the Rune sense he taught it to Snorri so there's was something he could contribute but not much. This is shown by this;

"[ ] Diction Direction: Master Yorri's Rune of Translation is serviceable, but it's in a position that you can very clearly see areas for improvement. This would certainly be easier if you knew Master Yorri was right now, but you have the Rune and seven centuries under your belt, so it's not an insurmountable challenge for a Runelord. [Cost: (6 -4) =2 actions] Student of the Odd will proc.
- [ ] Prod Yorri: He discovered the damn thing, maybe he has more insights?[Cost: 1 prod] Gain 1 Progress"

Note that we could only use a single prod on it and for minimal additional progress at that, just a single point. So he had enough to help but not enough to complete the action for Snorri. If we had already researched to the next stage he wouldn't have had anything to add and thus no Prod.
MrHobbit said:
And you are ignoring the various statements about Deep Magic that soulcake has given us. Valma is a beardling and Yorri is millennia our elder. He is absolutely going to know about Deep Magic. Barak Azamar is not the only way to study deep magic. It simply can't be.
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Yeah, I'm just going to point out that I already said that they knew it existed, just like how they know Runes interact with the ambient magic of the world around them aka the Winds of Magic. But just like the Winds just because they know it's there and that their Runes interact with it that doesn't mean they can research the Winds/Deep Magic itself. That has always been the main hurdle of developing Runes, the fact that they're only able see a part of what's happening and blind to the other side of things.

And in the passage you quote Soulcake straight up says while they know Deep Magic is a thing that exists all of their knowledge on it is purely theoretical in nature and ranges wildly from Runesmith to Runesmith.
 
Turning wardstones around, I wonder if researching how to block scrying would give some insight into how to produce scrying or remote viewing runes.

Being able to check on Waystones remotely would make life much easier. Along with much else
 
Alratan said:
Turning wardstones around, I wonder if researching how to block scrying would give some insight into how to produce scrying or remote viewing runes.

Being able to check on Waystones remotely would make life much easier. Along with much else
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remote viewing that is compatible with runes is probably not in the same research tree as wardstones.

I'm more inclined to think the Secrets of Light as the one most likely to give us anything like remote viewing. What's a scrying pool if not a completely overpowered telescope that ignores intervening space (and time). It's also the research tree that is most likely to lead to something like Thungni's holograms too.
 
UlseDovThur said:
Yeah, I'm just going to point out that I already said that they knew it existed, just like how they know Runes interact with the ambient magic of the world around them aka the Winds of Magic. But just like the Winds just because they know it's there and that their Runes interact with it that doesn't mean they can research the Winds/Deep Magic itself. That has always been the main hurdle of developing Runes, the fact that they're only able see a part of what's happening and blind to the other side of things.

And in the passage you quote Soulcake straight up says while they know Deep Magic is a thing that exists all of their knowledge on it is purely theoretical in nature and ranges wildly from Runesmith to Runesmith.
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Yes it varies Runesmith to Runesmith.

Logically speaking a several millennia old Runesmith who is theorized to have been taught by Durin the Lost and is known to use quite a bit of Grontis would be on the more knowledgeable end of the scale.
 
MrHobbit said:
Yes it varies Runesmith to Runesmith.

Logically speaking a several millennia old Runesmith who is theorized to have been taught by Durin the Lost and is known to use quite a bit of Grontis would be on the more knowledgeable end of the scale.
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It doesn't matter how old or knowledgeable he is if he simply lacks the proper tools or insights to do anything or go any further. That simply leads to a case of Durin's Consternation.
 
UlseDovThur said:
It doesn't matter how old or knowledgeable he is if he simply lacks the proper tools or insights to do anything or go any further. That simply leads to a case of Durin's Consternation.
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You are making quite a large assumption. Barak Azamar is not the only way for Dwarfs to test how Deep Magic works.

They can easily just, you know, alter the Rune of Waking that specifically channels the deep magic. Alter the strikes to see which options make it better or worse.

Something which Yorri would easily have time to do.

None of what I said specifically requires a knowledge of what Deep Magic is, only an Understanding of the Master Rune of Waking, and which strikes Make Grontis Better.
 
MrHobbit said:
You are making quite a large assumption. Barak Azamar is not the only way for Dwarfs to test how Deep Magic works.

They can easily just, you know, alter the Rune of Waking that specifically channels the deep magic. Alter the strikes to see which options make it better or worse.

Something which Yorri would easily have time to do.

None of what I said specifically requires a knowledge of what Deep Magic is, only an Understanding of the Master Rune of Waking, and which strikes Make Grontis Better.
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The only way? No, but it will undoubtedly make it infinitely easier.

And you say they can simply and easily alter a Master Rune? What quest have you been reading? Master Runes are incredibly delicate, complex, and powerful things. One needs a specialized room inscribed with the original and vastly more powerful Runes of Spellbreaking and Spelleating to safely research them lest they die when one goes up like a bomb.

Nevermind the fact that you assume that just because they can use different strike that they would be able to accurately gauge what those changes did. The only real way to do that is to make a Gronti with those changes to the Master Rune and observe it's performance which is an extremely limiting bottleneck seeing as the Rule of Pride is a thing.

There's also the challenge of finding which strokes and lines even interact with Deep Magic to begin with as that would require differentiating between which draws from the Winds and those that draw from Deep Magic, something that would be an immensely difficult task! Like asking someone to identify the difference between a virus and a bacteria without a microscope.

Snorri however can observe the changes he makes thanks to Barak Azamar stimulating those specific portions of the Master Rune and not the others thus allowing him to trial and error it without having to make a Gronti for every variation and allowing him to identify the portions of the Rune that deal with Deep Magic without any guess work.
 
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What do people think about ordering more of the Elf creature corpse to do some destructive testing?

UlseDovThur said:
The only way? No, but it will undoubtedly make it infinitely easier.

And you say they can simply and easily alter a Master Rune? What quest have you been reading? Master Runes are incredibly delicate, complex, and powerful things. One needs a specialized room inscribed with the original and vastly more powerful Runes of Spellbreaking and Spelleating to safely research them lest they die when one goes up like a bomb.

Nevermind the fact that you assume that just because they can use different strike that they would be able to accurate gauge what those changes did. The only real way to do that is to make a Gronti with those changes to the Master Rune and observe it's performance which is an extremely limiting bottleneck seeing as the Rule of Pride is a thing.

There's also the challenge of finding which stroke and lines even interact with Deep Magic to begin with as that would require differentiating between which draws from the Winds and those that draw from Deep Magic, something that would be an immensely difficult task! Like asking someone to identify the difference between a virus and a bacteria without a microscope.

Snorri however can observe the changes he makes thanks to Barak Azamar stimulating those specific portions of the Master Rune and not the others thus allowing him to trial and error it without having to make a Gronti for every variation and allowing to identify the portions of the Rune that deal with Deep Magic without any guess work.
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The fact that Barak Azamar makes it easier is no reason to think that Yorri hasn't done it. All it requires is experience and complete Understanding of the Master Rune of Waking.

Something which, of all the Dwarfs we know, Yorri is the only candidate to have. Well, without going into Alric Thungnisson and Thungni himself.

The way Yorri would do it is the same way that we tested the prototype Master Rune of Purification without violating the Rule of Pride, or how Snerra Understood her banner variant of the Master Rune of Amplification into a Talismanic variant. The same way every single fucking Runesmith Understands a damn Master Rune. Or how Snorri will eventually Understand the Master Rune of Forgeflame into a non Master Rune variant.

Hell, Yorri would understand which strikes channel deep magic without violating the Rule of Pride in the same fashion that we will.

It is very important to note that Barak Azamar could very well make our job harder if Snorri was an unthinking Beardling. All of our Runes channel Deep Magic, so it will definitely be more difficult to figure out which parts channel it.

I will make note of the fact, one which you seem to have forgotten, Yorri had at least twelve Gronti. I highly doubt that was the sum total of all the Gronti he had made at the time of the Incursion, and I also doubt that he stopped making gronti there.
 
Dark as Silver said:
*shrug*if Durin says that it will give us more research points
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We did it with the dragon ogres.

soulcake said:
[ ] Dragon Ogre Autopsy: You've found yourself with a bevy of corpses to study. Dragon Ogres aren't an unknown foe, but you've never been privy to the results of the few limited autopsies done in the long history of your people. [Cost: 6 actions] Student of the Odd will proc.
- [ ] Destructive Research: You have very many corpses. Being a bit more invasive in your understanding will mean more work gets done, but will cost you. [Cost: 3 Shaggoth Corpses, 9 Dragon Ogre Corpses] Gain 2 Progress, can be taken multiple times.
- [ ] Prod Yorri: See if your master has something in his noggin, he spent a decade fighting these things. [Cost: 1 prod] Gain 1d3 of progress.
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Damn it it costs more than I thought it would.
 
MrHobbit said:
What do people think about ordering more of the Elf creature corpse to do some destructive testing?
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Not against it, but I would like to wait for the two Elves from last chapter to arrive and see, if we can't combine our Elf related goals/research/options in accordance with them.

Maybe we could get some bonuses out of it or extra stuff?
 
i mean i was hoping to do the language next turn so Yorri threw a wrench in that plan. oh well always the turn after to learn becouse i want to get started on Akazit soon
 
MrHobbit said:
What do people think about ordering more of the Elf creature corpse to do some destructive testing?


The fact that Barak Azamar makes it easier is no reason to think that Yorri hasn't done it. All it requires is experience and complete Understanding of the Master Rune of Waking.

Something which, of all the Dwarfs we know, Yorri is the only candidate to have. Well, without going into Alric Thungnisson and Thungni himself.

The way Yorri would do it is the same way that we tested the prototype Master Rune of Purification without violating the Rule of Pride, or how Snerra Understood her banner variant of the Master Rune of Amplification into a Talismanic variant. The same way every single fucking Runesmith Understands a damn Master Rune. Or how Snorri will eventually Understand the Master Rune of Forgeflame into a non Master Rune variant.

Hell, Yorri would understand which strikes channel deep magic without violating the Rule of Pride in the same fashion that we will.

It is very important to note that Barak Azamar could very well make our job harder if Snorri was an unthinking Beardling. All of our Runes channel Deep Magic, so it will definitely be more difficult to figure out which parts channel it.

I will make note of the fact, one which you seem to have forgotten, Yorri had at least twelve Gronti. I highly doubt that was the sum total of all the Gronti he had made at the time of the Incursion, and I also doubt that he stopped making gronti there.
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And just because Yorri is old as dirt doesn't mean he automatically has more knowledge than us. He didn't know shit about Adamant until we filled him in on it and he undoubtedly has far more experience with Gromril than we do.

But whatever, you're only argument so far has been variations of "but Yorri is super old and really likes Gronti so obviously he would know how to work the Deep Magic function of the Rune" and you're obviously not changing it. I've already explained why that doesn't mean shit for multiple reasons. Either come up with a new line of reasoning or this conversation is over and I can just wait until I'm proven right when the next update drops.
 
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UlseDovThur said:
And just because Yorri is old as dirt doesn't mean he automatically has more knowledge than us. He didn't know shit about Adamant until we filled him in on it and he undoubtedly has far more experience with Gromril than we do.

But whatever, you're only argument so far has been variations of "but Yorri is super old and really likes Gronti so obviously he would know how to work the Deep Magic function of the Rune" and you're obviously not changing it. I've already explained why that doesn't mean shit for multiple reasons. Either come up with a new line of reasoning or this conversation is over and I can just wait until I'm proven right when the next update drops.
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That is incorrect. Yorri has more experience working with gromril but he has never been called out as an expert on it. Yorri has specifically claimed to be an expert on gronti.

Not only that but soulcake has said that the Master Rune of Waking is a Rune that Yorri would be available to Understand, implying that he has done it.

If you are going to make strawman, try to make them not so pathetically obvious to see through.

Also, retract the argument about how it would violate the Rule of Pride. That was a clearly dishonest argument to throw in the arena.
 
@soulcake does Snorri think he could do destructive testing with the elf animal corpses and if yes roughly how much of each does he think that would take?
 
MrHobbit said:
That is incorrect. Yorri has more experience working with gromril but he has never been called out as an expert on it. Yorri has specifically claimed to be an expert on gronti.

Not only that but soulcake has said that the Master Rune of Waking is a Rune that Yorri would be available to Understand, implying that he has done it.

If you are going to make strawman, try to make them not so pathetically obvious to see through.

Also, retract the argument about how it would violate the Rule of Pride. That was a clearly dishonest argument to throw in the arena.
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And if you're going to try and come up with a new argument try something that is actually convincing. Valma is also a "Gronti Expert" and she didn't have a clue as to where to even begin figuring out how to mess with the Deep Magic portion of the Rune despite knowing just as/almost as much about it as Snorri does right now. And yet Snorri can pick out those portions of the Rune but she can't. I wonder why that is?

All Understand a Master Rune does is allow for different variations of it and the only one we don't already have is the Banner Rune version. It does not intale delving into its inner workings and specifically manipulating a very specific section of it for an improvement to an esoteric feature of the Rune that would be extremely difficult to differentiate from the rest of the Rune.

And the Rule of Pride Argument is perfectly valid. To observe the effect of a change to the Master Rune of Waking one would have to observe the performance of what it animates, aka, a Gronti. Good fucking luck selling to the Guild, "oh, all of these Gronti I made in just a decade? Yeah, they're all totally just experiments, they totally don't count, don't worry about it."
 
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Dark as Silver said:
Yeah, sorry, when I said if it gets us more research I meant if we can reasonably order enough, this isn't something worth spending favour on expediting 8 more corpses so that we can get them here in two or three turns.
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We do have a lot of Kraka Drakk favour if that's what we'd be spending. (I think it is) Less of a good idea if we'd be spending Ravnsvake favour.
 
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UlseDovThur said:
And if you're going to try and come up with a new argument try something that is actually convincing. Valma is also a "Gronti Expert" and she didn't have a clue as to where to even begin figuring out how to mess with the Deep Magic portion of the Rune despite knowing just as/almost as much about it as Snorri does right now. And there are undoubtedly many other "Gronti experts" out there that have tried and failed thus why this is still an unsolved mystery of the Master Rune of Waking.

All Understand a Master Rune does is allow for different variations of it and the only one we don't already have is the Banner Rune version. It does not intale delving into its inner workings and specifically manipulating a very specific section of it for an improvement to an esoteric feature of the Rune that would be extremely difficult to differentiate from the rest of the Rune.

And the Rule of Pride Argument is perfectly valid. To observe the effect of a change to the Master Rune of Waking one would have to observe the performance of what it animates, aka, a Gronti. Good fucking luck selling to the Guild, "oh, all of these Gronti I made in just a decade? Yeah, they're all totally just experiments, they totally don't count, don't worry about it."
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Remind me again, how old is Valma? As of Turn 31 she was 590, and Yorri was at least two thousand years old. We have only confirmed that she has made three gronti, while Yorri has made twelve.

Also, soulcake has actually commented that not having already poked deep magic (ie, making Barak Azamar) would not have locked out research into The Movement of Things.

soulcake said:
EVA-Saiyajin said:
@soulcake
Would we have been flat locked out of further Movement of Things research if we hadn't taken steps into the Deep Magic area already?
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No because Pt. 3 is linked with realizing you need to manipulate the connection with the Deep Magic to get further generic improvements to the Master Rune of Waking and then figuring out what part of the Rune allows for that. Valma's variations just made that part easy enough that Pt.3 is completed. (Narratively speaking.)
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Understanding Master Runes means to break a Master Rune down completely and to understand what each and every single part does and how it affects the Rune itself. Doing it does not violate the Rule of Pride.

The only real difference between Understanding a MWaking into a Banner and figuring out which part does Deep Magic is the goal. Both require that Snorri figure out what each and every single strike does and how he can alter the strikes to get what he wants.
soulcake said:
As I've said, turning a Master Rune and breaking it down into a Regular Rune requires an absolute understanding of its intricacies.
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soulcake said:
Contrary to popular belief the action labelled Understanding a Master Rune actually does more to help understand a Rune than an action that has, at best, a vague connection based on half-understood principles. Also I'm not sure what's being implied by the point of it not being understandable, why wouldn't you be able to do the "Understand" action with the Rune you literally made. Runelords have gone a long time without being able to see or understand magic and get by just fine.

EDIT: to be clear, you can actually do Understand a Master Rune on the Master Rune of Purification, which is the main point I'm refuting here. (If pucflek meant to imply that). Durin's Consternation is an acknowledgement of the "fact" that the Dwarfs were not able to understand the underlying mechanics behind what exactly made their Runes work the way they did.

But that's the beauty of Runecraft. It's all standardized. Just knowing that doing one thing causes another, even if you don't know why, helps a Runesmith and builds their knowledge base.
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Jreengus said:
We do have a lot of Kraka Drakk favour if that's what we'd be spending. (I think it is) Less of a good idea if we'd be spending Ravnsvake favour.

Also on a semi related note, @soulcake sorry to keep pinging you but I spotted Eltharin disappeared from the list of options in the turn 42 restructure. I'm guessing because it was originally between the retainer and requests sections and didn't really fit into either.
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soulcake said:
General:
(*New*)[X] Teach Them: [Cost: 1 action] Locked in until end of Turn 46. You have sworn to teach any Masters who come to you the art of creating Gromril Chain, and you will do just that. Open the gates, let them come and put themselves through the gauntlet! By the end of it, they too will know the art, and be ready to pass it on to any future Runesmiths should they prove themselves worthy.

(*New*)[ ] Waywarding: [Cost: 1 action or retainer action] Gain bonus to Waystone rolls and update on status of Waystones. Can be taken multiple times. There is no set time in which you or your retainers are meant to check on these stone monoliths, but doing so more regularly will mean that you're more likely to keep them safe and know their status.
[ ] Odd Places 9/10: [Cost: 1 action] Can be taken multiple times. Roll for usefulness. Look on Master Yorri's map and try and discover one of his marked locations. The locations will certainly be odd, but whether they'll be useful will remain to be seen.

[ ] Apprentice Hunt: [Cost: 1 action] Apprentice Vote after Turn Results.Go out and trawl through the local and regional populace to find a beardling or two worth your time. No stone unturned, no clan unchecked, no record unread, even the Foundling Wards!

[ ] Eltharin?: [Cost: 5 actions, 20 Favour from Kraka Ravnsvake] Journeyman of the Odd will proc. Gain chance at an Elf teacher and proficient understanding of Eltharin. Eltharin, the tongue of the Elgi, is supposedly a language full of lilting double meanings, metaphor, symbology and almost anathema to Khazalid in terms of structure, intonation, usage and purpose. It is the raw language of the textbooks whose translation you still find yourself reviewing. If you want as undiluted or marred perception of the original text as possible you must learn this odd tongue. Either from a Dwarf who took the time to learn, or from an Elgi willing to brave the cold to reach you. Valma was asked, she said she wasn't going through explaining that hell again. It's as ominous a sign as any.
- [ ] Looking for a Native: [Cost: 30 Favour from Kraka Ravnsvake] Gain Elf teacher and -fluent understanding of Eltharin. Find an elf willing to teach you, your work will require as best a possible understanding of the elven tongue.
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Am I looking at this wrong, or did I read your post incorrectly? Eltharin is under general actions, in the spoiler.
 
MrHobbit said:
Remind me again, how old is Valma? As of Turn 31 she was 590, and Yorri was at least two thousand years old. We have only confirmed that she has made three gronti, while Yorri has made twelve.

Also, soulcake has actually commented that not having already poked deep magic (ie, making Barak Azamar) would not have locked out research into The Movement of Things.


Understanding Master Runes means to break a Master Rune down completely and to understand what each and every single part does and how it affects the Rune itself. Doing it does not violate the Rule of Pride.

The only real difference between Understanding a MWaking into a Banner and figuring out which part does Deep Magic is the goal. Both require that Snorri figure out what each and every single strike does and how he can alter the strikes to get what he wants.




Am I looking at this wrong, or did I read your post incorrectly? Eltharin is under general actions, in the spoiler.
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Understanding what you need to do and actually doing it are two very different things. Valma was already at the same point where we are with the Master Rune but she didn't know where to go from there, didn't know where to begin, but we do. Snorri has already picked out the portions of the Rune that needs to be manipulated where Valma couldn't because of the unique advantage that is Barak Azamar.

It's the same deal as with Rune Metal part 2b. The combination of Barak Azamar and Zharrgal together allowed us to skip a significant portion of that research path and go right for the end result.
 
UlseDovThur said:
Understanding what you need to do and actually doing it are two very different things. Valma was already at the same point where we are with the Master Rune but she didn't know where to go from there, didn't know where to begin, but we do. Snorri has already picked out the portions of the Rune that needs to be manipulated where Valma couldn't because of the unique advantage that is Barak Azamar.

It's the same deal as with Rune Metal part 2b. The combination of Barak Azamar and Zharrgal together allowed us to skip a significant portion of that research path and go right for the end result.
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What the fuck.

Did you even read the fact that @soulcake specifically said that not making Barak Azamar would not have locked out progress along The Movement of Things?

Barak Azamar is not a unique advantage when it comes out determining which part of the Rune manipulates Deep Magic. It makes it so that every rune we make with it channels deep magic. If, during the process of testing, Snorri made a variant of the Master Rune of Waking and broke the part that channels deep magic, it will still channel deep magic because Barak Azamar alters the metaphysical Rune, not the strikes.

Prove it. Prove that we need Barak Azamar to alter Runes. Mind you, you can't because soulcake has said that we did not need to, but I suppose what ever response you come up with will be amusing if nothing else.
 
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