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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Turn 33: The Rune Metal Pt. 1b (3 actions, 5 progress)
Turn 34: The Rune Metal Pt. 1b (4 actions, 7 progress) (The Rune Metal Pt. 1b Finished, 4 overflow into The Rune Metal Pt. 2b)

Here we should be able to tell what exactly we can get out of Gromril Chain research and figure out if we want to go all the way with gromril chain for the Valaya commission or not. Assuming that Pt. 2b and Pt. 3b have a cost of 12 actions.

All the way
Turn 35: The Rune Metal Pt. 2b (4 actions, 7 progress)
Turn 36: The Rune Metal Pt. 2b (4 actions, 7 progress) (The Rune Metal Pt. 2b Finished, 6 overflow into The Rune Metal Pt. 3b)
Turn 37: The Rune Metal Pt. 3b (4 actions, 7 progress) (The Rune Metal Pt. 3b Finished, 1 overflow into The Rune Metal Pt. 4b)
Turn 38: The Rune Metal Pt. 4b (2 actions, 3 progress) Hearthstones (2 actions, 3 progress)
Turn 39: Armoured Maidens (4 actions, 6 progress)
Turn 40: Armoured Maidens (4 actions, 6 progress)

I don't think that this will actually happen, but it could? I threw the Hearthstones in at the end because The Rune Metal Pt. 4b was unlikely to be finished with 4 progress.

Thank fuck for Soul of the Earth and Student of the Odd.

Edit: The Rune Metal Pt. 4b could be replaced with research into Silverwood and Durazkul.
 
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Hmm, I mean. soulcake has mentioned that Snorri would replace his previous commission's mail with gromril chain. So I guess Snorri could do the Valaya Runes and Heartstones, then make the armor. After that he can dedicate thirty or so actions of RESEARCH into gromril chain.
Quoting that actually reminded me...
You've only made 3 sets of armour worth noting. Otrek's, Gloin's and yours, and yes when you figure out Gromril Chain they'll get upgraded*.

*eventually.
soulcake, does Stormwrath -- the King of the Sky's armor -- count as "a set of armor worth noting" in this regard? As far as Gromril Chain upgrading goes, that is?
 
Hmm, I mean. soulcake has mentioned that Snorri would replace his previous commission's mail with gromril chain. So I guess Snorri could do the Valaya Runes and Heartstones, then make the armor. After that he can dedicate thirty or so actions of RESEARCH into gromril chain.
I doubt we will be able to upgrade the Valkyrie armour after the fact. First, without researching the chain it will just be another simple request not a creation of note. Secondly, unlike our other armours that are held by people living in the same hold as us the valkyrie suits will be spread across the Karaz Ankor making it much harder to get it back to meddle with.
 
Honestly it would be sorta awesome to read Snorri disappearing for 80 or so years, only appearing to do the politics for Karag Dum. Only for him to come out having made armor for the Cult of Valaya that has gromril chain.

it also would probably be simple for soulcake to write, making updates come quicker :p

I doubt we will be able to upgrade the Valkyrie armour after the fact. First, without researching the chain it will just be another simple request not a creation of note. Secondly, unlike our other armours that are held by people living in the same hold as us the valkyrie suits will be spread across the Karaz Ankor making it much harder to get it back to meddle with.
It is true that it is a simple request, and it does depend on how long it takes Snorri to have gromril chain be a viable resource as well. The Cult is probably going to have the suits in storage for a while. I also doubt that there are many dwarfs that wouldn't come to Kraka Drak just so they can get outfitted with gromril chain from the Gift Giver. These suits are going to be used in the North, so it shouldn't be impossible.
 
While I prefer deep magic research to Rune Metal stuff if we're going Rune Metal we should really do the Understand the Master Rune of Purification action. It'll probably help us on our way, and seems the sort of thing that might really help our progress there.
 
While I prefer deep magic research to Rune Metal stuff if we're going Rune Metal we should really do the Understand the Master Rune of Purification action. It'll probably help us on our way, and seems the sort of thing that might really help our progress there.
The Master Rune of Purification is unlikely to give any progress for Gromril Chain. It certainly would give progress for the main line of the research chain, but making chain shouldn't involve the smelter.

Besides, people want chain just so we can style over everyone and the Valkyrie Guard armor is an excellent opportunity for that. It also might get us the attention of Smednir. He is the Ancestor of Metalworking after all.

Hell Underearth, even Gormak might sniff with slightly less disapproval! :p
 
The Master Rune of Purification is unlikely to give any progress for Gromril Chain. It certainly would give progress for the main line of the research chain, but making chain shouldn't involve the smelter.

It could give us some insight on what's going on with the Dragon Blood, and how it purifies Gromril into Adamant, because I have a feeling it's more than just the heat it generates.
 
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The rule of pride means that in general studying a single master rune isn't really cost effective.

If my memory isn't playing tricks on me, soul stated that The Rule of Pride only becomes a problem if we make 4-6 copies of a Master Rune or Combo within a century (10 turns). To my understanding, once that century passes, we may reuse that Master Rune/Combo.

Besides, acquiring even a slimmest clue on how a Rune functions is always a worthwhile endeavor.
 
The rule of pride means that in general studying a single master rune isn't really cost effective.
Not really. For Runes like MAwakening it probably will allow us to make better Gronti and I highly doubt we'll only ever make one gronti. For MPurification it probably will help the Brotherhood of Dron, if Snorri shares his insights. It should also make research into Prismatic Dragon's Blood and the process of Adamant Making in general much easier. Also it would be pretty cool to understand the Master Rune of the Glittering Beacon, due to it's connection with Thungni. It would also make Zaraz a Rhunrikki about as good as we can make it. Understanding MUnyielding might give insights on Deep Magic.
 
You say that, but with Purification being literally tied into Adamant and likely Rune Metal t5 we're going to have to do that anyways. Else we're likely to hit Durin's consternation at the end of RM5 anyways.
The Master Rune of Purification isn't actually tied into Adamant. There are other ways to produce it, it just takes a whole lot of effort and resources.
 
The Master Rune of Purification isn't actually tied into Adamant. There are other ways to produce it, it just takes a whole lot of effort and resources.
It is by far the most efficient way without a doubt, in terms of waste, usable waste, and the amount of products needed. The old way was analogous to a red headed child pissing on iron and then steel getting made in Rome. It works yeah, but it was brute forcing the issue and more or less missing the science underpinning it. If we're to get to Rune Metal tier 5, we're going to need to know how it works so we know what it's actually MISSING, and from there can work out a runic array to fix it. Without understanding it we're going to hit a roadblock sooner or later, and this is not getting into how we must understand it to use it as anything else other than what it is, which given what it does, could be a potent effect indeed. Regardless, understanding it raises our chances of proceeding down RM without hitting a Durin's Consternation.
 
While I agree that understanding MPurification might help with the main chain, I'd rather just go do the main chain until we hit a wall then see what options we have for getting around it. We just don't have enough actions to do it the other way right now lol.
 
While I agree that understanding MPurification might help with the main chain, I'd rather just go do the main chain until we hit a wall then see what options we have for getting around it. We just don't have enough actions to do it the other way right now lol.
I don't really see an issue with actions? Understanding MPurification would almost certainly give progress to the main chain. It should also proc both Soul of the Earth and Student of the Odd, meaning that after Turn 40 (if the thread chooses to dump all the actions until then into Research on gromril chain) Snorri could get 8 progress into it in a single turn. The max amount of actions Understanding takes is 16, and that number is decreased by the fact that Snorri made the Rune. It is also a talismanic Rune, which is another of Snorri's specialties which would reduce the required actions further.
 
@soulcake
Would we have been flat locked out of further Movement of Things research if we hadn't taken steps into the Deep Magic area already?
No because Pt. 3 is linked with realizing you need to manipulate the connection with the Deep Magic to get further generic improvements to the Master Rune of Waking and then figuring out what part of the Rune allows for that. Valma's variations just made that part easy enough that Pt.3 is completed. (Narratively speaking.)
And the griffonprince armour thing isn't listed as a request any more, if you'll notice. I'm fairly sure the princes have given up on waiting for Snorri and turned to someone else.
Dolgi, and we aren't sure why they did it.
Point of clarification. Otrek gave you that commission, not the princes themselves.
 
@soulcake, now that Snorri has a solid understanding of the Master Rune of Waking would he know if reagents like a Dragon Ogre Heart or the Magma Wyrm Heart we have be suitable as a reagent for it? And if he does are they?

Edit: To clarify I'm not asking for specifics just a "yeah they can" or "no they can't"
 
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@soulcake, now that Snorri has a solid understanding of the Master Rune of Waking would he know if reagents like a Dragon Ogre Heart or the Magma Wyrm Heart we have be suitable as a reagent for it? And if he does are they?

Edit: To clarify I'm not asking for specifics just a "yeah they can" or "no they can't"
He reckons aye. He's familiar enough with the Rune to believe he can make it with different sorts of hearts and get it to work.

Symbolically speaking, a heart's a heart after all. Not as much core nuance as with a Brain, an eye or a hand or what have you.
 
He reckons aye. He's familiar enough with the Rune to believe he can make it with different sorts of hearts and get it to work.

Symbolically speaking, a heart's a heart after all. Not as much core nuance as with a Brain, an eye or a hand or what have you.
Really dwarf heart would likely be best, but that would get dark quick.
 
He reckons aye. He's familiar enough with the Rune to believe he can make it with different sorts of hearts and get it to work.

Symbolically speaking, a heart's a heart after all. Not as much core nuance as with a Brain, an eye or a hand or what have you.
Nice, with that confirmed I really want to build my Dragon Gronti and Thunder Caller Gronti ideas.
 
The rule of pride means that in general studying a single master rune isn't really cost effective.

But here's the thing. We might not need to make lots of them to get a ton of benefit. For instance, if we can purify a lot of materials beyond just gromril, then we can get potentially a lot of new materials without actually building anything new. And that's excluding the possibility that we actually discover new runes from the investigation. For instance, we might be able to derive a non-master rune of purification by understanding the master rune, which might open up plenty of new avenues. Or we might get insights that speed up other research paths. Or so many other things.
 
[Canon] Crystal Bonsai, +10 to a local RER Roll, Crystal "Bonsai," a tradition started in Karak Izril, present in Kraka Drakk
- Things other than a goat or pony a Dwarf would raise/grow as a hobby. (Better chances if it's something that's long-lived, can be worked on over successive generations. Plants and Crystals are on the table.)
Crystal Bonsai
Brogi Grimson chuckled contentedly as he sat in his favorite chair and tended to his family's crystal tree, carefully polishing it. Sat in a decorative stone pot inscribed with the Runes at great expense millennia ago, the pot held a mixture of dirt and gravel from which sprouted a yellow-white crystal of quartz. It grew in a straight trunk for three hand spans, and from that short length dozens of other carefully cultivated crystals had been coaxed from its surface, creating a small shape reminiscent of a tree.

The clan of Diamondeye had cared for this tree for twenty generations, since it was found by the original Grim deep in the depths, and it wouldn't be Brogi Grimson who failed to care for it properly! His ancestors would shame him if he did. The jeweler grumbled to himself as he squinted at his prized hobby through a jeweler's lens, hunched over his work desk as he carefully scrubbed a miniscule speck of grime from one of the 'branches'.

With a huff the five hundred year old dwarf elder straightened and bustled about putting away his tools and then carefully carried the pot to its place beneath the complicated series of pipes and valves which hung in a side room and dripped a carefully mixed solution of mineral water onto a pinpoint section of the crystal. Sourced from the waters in the living rock of Kraka Drakk, he was quite pleased to find that his family heirloom had been doing quite nicely since he moved here in the wake of Lord Klausson when he was a much younger lad.

His happy humming was interrupted when he spied a bit of warping on one of his pipes. "Krut! Ancestors be damned iron, knew I wasn't getting... shoulda..." Brogi grumbled mightily as he fussed over his pipes and planned how he was going to replace them.

Bah!

If he was going to replace some he might as well do some of those improvements he'd been meaning too. The hold was abuzz with activity and news of that business in Kadrin so there'd probably be someone he could talk to who needed the business. Maybe that old lad Mordin? Be nice to talk to him again, been a while since they'd had a good hearty ale.

Careful fiddling adjusted the light level as he pressed the various Runes on his walls or spoke a few quiet words over them, dimming to a nice cave like shine. He'd have to go quickly.

His train of thought was disrupted as a furious knocking started on his door and then he heard his friend Dorri yelling frantically. "Brogi get out you wazzock we have a dozen orders in our lap and the guildmaster is grumbling hard enough to shake the ceiling. Please hurry up!"

Brogi snorted angrily and yanked his door open, nearly getting a fist in his face for his troubles before his younger friend jerked it back. "What!?" He shouted grumpily. He had things to do besides get caught up in whatever this nonsense was.

"The Lord Ancestor is in a Mood again!" Dorri yelled back.

Ah.

Oh.

Oh dear.

Brogi paled white as a sheet. "What are you standing here for you wazzock, go go go, no time to waste!"

"I'll go tell Magda!" Dorri shouted as he ran off down the street. Brogi could see similar scenes playing out across down the street, dwarves rushing about everywhere in a carefully organized but extremely speedy rush. Dorri disappeared into that crush as the entire cavern echoed with the sounds of booted feet and grumbling voices.

He'd need to get those diamonds from Jolla and the transcripts from the guild master and oil the cart wheels and make sure his fool apprentices didn't suddenly get themselves lost chasing light down a mineshaft, and...!

Bah!

Nothing for it but to make sure the beardlings didn't bungle it up too much while he pushed through his work. If it was this urgent the entire hold would be up in a hubbub about it!

Rushing into his house to scoop up his tools the elderly dwarf stashed them in his apron and then dashed off towards the guildhall, his grumbles clearing a path through all the beardlings thronging about under the careful hand of their harried and grumbling elders.


Just a little omake about a jeweler and his crystal growing hobby.
 
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