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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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jjffjhjf said:
Wow... looking back at the beginning of the game, turn one options. We had 7 options. That's it. The quest has quite heavily expanded since then.
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I hear you on that. Quite a significant difference, and Snorri's own character has developed since then.

Catpetter1981 said:
I wonder if we'll ever reach Ulthuan Quest level of choice overload i.e. 100+ choices per turn.
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I think Soul would just die completely.
 
MrHobbit said:
By nature, the Karaz Ankor is an empire of artisans. It is highly unlikely that it will ever experience the Industrial Revolution and if it does it will only be recognizable by humans who have spent their lives studying it.
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It's a good thing really, as it's part of why Dawi aren't humans. They're not like, oh, 40k Eldar, who are smug magic fast humans. They're something 100% Not Like Us and yet comprehensible. It's why I like them and Orcs. Utterly different mental, and thus societal, paradigms.
 
ilbgar123 said:
Even a magitech revolution? If we combine the magitech of the Lizardmen with the magitech of the Elves and our own, we could likely achieve wonderous things. I think the Dwarves and Lizardmen would have an easier time understanding each other than the Elves would the Dwarves, and, ironically, might be a good intermediary since they have some of the same extreme attention to detail as the Dwarves, and some of the same magical weirdness as the Elves. For one thing, the Elves would be a lot more likely to look at you like you're crazy for saying you need to move your whole city six inches west. Meanwhile, it's noted that Dwarves can't see magic the way the Brana or Elves can, but the ruling caste of the Lizardmen doesn't have that problem. Plus, the Lizardmen know the other races were created for some reason by their toad-great-grandpas the Old Ones and combining magic systems more or less unique to each race is probably as good a reason as any.

The humans would likely serve as... well, cannon fodder, as we breed like rats compared to pretty much everybody who isn't the Skaven or Orcs. Even the Ogres only sort of keep up, and their attrition rates are even worse. On the upside, human Hero Units are much better than their race's average. Which is to say, human Hero Units seem to make a bigger jump than the others, which allows them to keep up with the Hero Units of other races, and, much like Orcs, numbers handle the rest most of the time.
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Honestly, I don't like magitech much. It's a very opinion based thing for me, but when magitech becomes the focus, I often stop seeing what I love about magic. The mystic side of things, the not quite explained, and the legendary appeal to me. Too often, magitech feels like authors simply take magic and use it to create a 1:1 recreation of some scientific tech. From a storytelling perspective, I almost see magic as wasted when I could swap in something from the modern world for it. The benefits of writing in a fantasy setting become somewhat diluted.

This isn't to say that I dislike all 1:1 magic and tech equivalents--I quite like the runes of light, runes of preservation, and other such things. I just worry that a theme of magic overall, the feeling of something wild and limitless with always more to discover, gets lost if "magitech" becomes too great a focus.

Again, this is very opinion based and subjective, so if the rest of the quest disagreed with me on any part of this, I 100% understand. I can totally see an argument that what we have already in this quest is magitech, and that's true using a different context for the term.

Stepping away from the thing I've wanted to say somewhere for a while, I do agree that working with other races can produce greater things than any one alone. Everybody has unique areas of expertise that provide valuable perspectives and opportunities that we would be foolish to ignore.
 
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Humans, for example, are objectively superior to all of the Elder races in one objective, immutable, inarguable respect:

Dying in truly enormous numbers and recovering from it. Because holy shit, they lost 90% of the Empire at one point and still booted the Skaven out.

If we lost 90% of Kraka Drakk the hold would just... collapse.

There's utility in that.
 
Jreengus said:
No such thing as enough adamant for ourselves. There are plans floating around the thread for a bloodthirster sized Grimnir gronti either plated with or made of solid adamant which would use up a ton. Once the other ancestors leave it opens up the possiblity of doing the same for all of them, then there's also giving the Hearthguard adamant equipment if we really have a ton stockpiled.
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I know I'm really late on this by I just want to say that I find this extremely unconvincing. If we had enough Adamant income to make a Bloodthirster sized Gronti easy then I think the people advocating it would just start advocating a Statue of Liberty sized Gronti, because the design has never been about what is reasonable for the society soulcake came up
soulcake said:
So when I say cost, it literally is cost. A Gromril Gronti isn't unheard of, but from what I can tell from the discussion, the scale of what's being proposed certainly is. Because the cost is ludicrous.
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its always been about what is the most that is possibly feasible for Snorri.

Also since costs came up I tabulated this earlier.
Dark as Silver said:
Updating the Gronti cost chart for the if we're now discussing small Ymir:


OptionAdamant Cost
Dwarf Sized (No Armour)7 (2+5*1)
4m (No Armour)14 (4+5*2)
12m (No Armour)23 (8+5*3)
Dwarf Sized (Armour)10 (2+3+5*1)
4m (Armour)22 (4+8+5*2)
12m (Armour)35 (8+12+5*3)
Dwarf Sized (Full Adamant No Armour)13 (8+5*1)
4m (Full Adamant No Armour)26 (16+5*2)
12m (Full Adamant No Armour)47 (32+5*3)
Dwarf Sized (Full Adamant Armour)16 (8+3+5*1)
4m (Full Adamant Armour)34 (16+8+5*2)
12m (Full Adamant Armour)59 (32+12+5*3)

For my two cents... A significant reason people are voting for the Gronti is that Snorri has a synergy with the runes on it.
The more we go heavily in on its equipment the more people need to justify why we don't just give that equipment to other dwarves who could use it just as well. And also Snorri already cannot think of something that could destroy the plated one so pure is overkill. I feel that the truest implementation of this plan would be a 12 m Adamant plated Gronti and just make the equipment out of regular old Pure Gomril. Following their logic this gives the highest chances of a Mythical Gronti rather than a Legendary Gronti with a bunch of Legendary/Epic items.

Of course the other significant reason people are voting this was Rule of Cool, and they just need to think the more heavily armed the Gronti is the cooler it is to justify so .🤷‍♂️
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Dark as Silver said:
Snip
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To chime in on the full adamant gronti conversation I have to say I like the idea enough to carry it out but I'm never going to go out of my way to pursue building such a gronti I'm just going to play as normal and if we ever have enough adamant lying around to build one sure I'm all for it but that's it.

Same with the research for it, I won't go out of my way to vote for any of the research that would allow us to make the thing top-notch just for its sake so you'll have to convince me of it based on the merits of other projects.
 
I'm pretty keen on the Bloodthirster sized adamant gronti with adamant gear, but we don't need it to be any bigger than that.

I'd also like to complete the Movement and possibly Mind of Things chain before we build it, and possibly get another T5 ingredient that would be suitable for a Grimnir Gronti, so this is a very long term ambition.

I think Movement and Mind of Things are very interesting in their own right, as they push back the boundaries of Snorri's understanding of runecraft and their metaphysics in a way that few others things do. So much of the work we do is about investigating or reproducing existing phenomena, but Movement seems to be on the edge of and Mind of Things seems to have allowed us to do genuinely novel things. The Rune of Forged Limb seems to so far be the only thing truly unique to Snorri that we've created and deployed for public use. Even the Deep Magic of his armour seems to be an application of the principles behind gronti and is something that the Greedy Troll's Heart is responsible for, not Snorri.
 
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For the adamant gronti. How useful would it be ? It is a very shiny thing that's for sure but again, is it really useful ?

Say, if this adamant was used elsewhere, would it be more useful to create armors/limbs/tools/weapons ? Because at the end our santa dwarf only cares about that.
 
Matharn said:
For the adamant gronti. How useful would it be ? It is a very shiny thing that's for sure but again, is it really useful ?

Say, if this adamant was used elsewhere, would it be more useful to create armors/limbs/tools/weapons ? Because at the end our santa dwarf only cares about that.
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Depends on who you ask.
We're somewhere on the scale of: Adamant Bloodthrister Gronti would be a supercombatant matching or even exceeding KoS. To the difference between Adamant Skinned and Solid Adamant is extremely hard to distinguish as Adamant Skinned is already so tough that Snorri can't imagine anything that can break it. And finally a Gromril Bloodthirster Gronti would be near indestructible and a show of wealth that is described by soulcake as ludicrous.

For the most extreme plans of full Adamant with armour and weapons, its in the ballpark of costing as much as equipping 20/30 different dwarves with Adamant Armour and a weapon. (Depends on if the gronti includes talismans and the like and if the dwarves do)
One thing that doesn't come up often though is that the action to cost ration is weighted very differently between the different plans. It would take significantly more actions to make Troll Slayers of Zharghal's for 20 dwarves than it would for the gronti + equipment. And its also unclear if we could actually just use a Simple Request action to make all the dwarf equipment, which could flip the action cost back in favour of equiping dwarves and how that would change the quality of the result. So thats also up for debate.
 
There is also a bit of contention over whether we could improve Gronti by making them have simulacra of Dwarf internals. Bones, a heart, a brain, etc. If that really would greatly improve the Gronti then 100% Adamant wouldn't be preferable because the body obviously isn't 100% of 1 material.
 
A pure adamant Grimnir the Warrior gronti would presumably be a real super-combatant in a way a partial adamant gronti wouldn't be to the same degree.

It would also be a very powerful statement. Snorri is almost certainly the last Runelord to see Grimnir, and this would be a walking sacrament to him. Making a pure adamant gronti is something that probably no other Runelord could do, and so this would be a unique offering to honour Grimnir. The fact that it's not economising, that it's going all in and making it the best it possibly can be is a very dwarven type of sacrifice. There's something about no half measures that is very appealing.

That later point is why I'd want to complete the Movement of Things chain amongst other research before trying this.

This is why, despite supporting the giant adamant gronti plan I'm not making the action efficiency argument. Arguably it still applies, as the research results can be applied to more than just the Grimnir Gronti, but it's not quite so clear cut.

Nicholas Brooks said:
There is also a bit of contention over whether we could improve Gronti by making them have simulacra of Dwarf internals. Bones, a heart, a brain, etc. If that really would greatly improve the Gronti then 100% Adamant wouldn't be preferable because the body obviously isn't 100% of 1 material.
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I don't see why not. We could 'easily' make a 100% adamant gronti as a giant three dimensional jigsaw of individually forged organs, bones, and muscles.

The one exception would be the circularity system, which would presumably be adamant pipes filled with Grimnirzul.
 
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Fun fact for the thread, next turn will be the first turn since turn 9 that we haven't had an odd material available to research.
 
The next stage of research for movement is investigating the connection between gronti and deep magic:
soulcake said:
[ ] The Movement of Things Pt. 4: [Cost: (10 -2) =8 actions] Journeyman of the Odd and Mind for Constructs will proc. With all of the extant examples of the Rune you now have thanks to your trade with Valma, you now have a deeper understanding of just what parts of it draws upon the Deep Magic. Improving the strength, efficiency and utility of the Rune of Waking can't be feasibly done through simple, relatively speaking, changes now. No, you can already tell that you'll have to manipulate the connection to the Deep Magic somehow.
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Combine that with Barak Azamar and it's possible Snorri will be able to make a permanent Gronti.
 
Matharn said:
For the adamant gronti. How useful would it be ? It is a very shiny thing that's for sure but again, is it really useful ?
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OOC ..does anyone need a Warlord Titan?

IC, I would it find it pretty funny if Snorri makes the Gronti and then goes .."ok now what the hell do I do with it?"
Though I'd also be happy with the idea of "The cult of Grimnir needs something to cheer em up a bit, how about a Giant Superweapon".


I don't think this has gotten any traction, but I would like to incorporate the last companions of Grimnir in the creation process of the Gronti.
 
dpara said:
OOC ..does anyone need a Warlord Titan?

IC, I would it find it pretty funny if Snorri makes the Gronti and then goes .."ok now what the hell do I do with it?"
Though I'd also be happy with the idea of "The cult of Grimnir needs something to cheer em up a bit, how about a Giant Superweapon".


I don't think this has gotten any traction, but I would like to incorporate the last companions of Grimnir in the creation process of the Gronti.
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Grimnir is gone, but we need someone able to punch dragons and pop them like soap bubbles.
So I made the dragonpoppinator, based on my memories of the Ancestor.
Do you like it?
 
IronFist said:
Where in the quest does it say that?
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Its Warhammer Canon. Sometimes after the war of the beard the 'Deep Magic' receded further into the earth and left Gronti's for the most part without a power source.

Article:
During the War of Vengeance, the "old magic" that had empowered the Rune Golems had begun to sink deeper into the earth, out of the reach of any Runelord.[1a]​ The last one able to command them was Ranuld Silverthumb, the Runelord of Karaz-a-Karak, and even he needed the aid of other Runelords to fully awaken them. The act of attempting to animate the slumbering Golems and use them in the war alone turned him into stone. [1a]​


We don't know enough about Deep Magic in the quest to really comment on how this might play out in quest.
soulcake said:
-Conduit of the Earth: ??? The Oldest Magics, nai the Oldest Forces on the planet fill the armour, pulled forth by the heart of something that could never be satiated. The eternal energy of the ageless living earth flows like water through a channel carved in the stone and into the wearer.
-- Items and Runes made while wearing Barak Azamar will instinctively draw from the deep magic of the earth as easily as they do the winds, improving their longevity.
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This is kinda up to interpretation, on one hand this might mean that BA enables a deeper well to the Deep Magic allowing them to continue working longer (If so its not clear if this would enable them to continue indefinitely or just for another couple of centuries) on the other hand this could mean that everything we make relies on the Deep Magic and is put on the same clock as the Grontis and after that they stop working or just lose this bonus.
Further research is required as right now this all speculation.

Apart from that Runes also do require maintenance and its likely that the MWaking is a lost rune by the time of the Silver Age/Age of Vengeance.

Given that the Elf war is likely to occur turn 200 ish, we can consider Gronti probably permanent except for possible epilogue chapters as if we're honest its more likely that soulcakes muse moves on rather than we get another 160 or about 5 years of the quest at its average rate this year.
 
Dark as Silver said:
Its Warhammer Canon. Sometimes after the war of the beard the 'Deep Magic' receded further into the earth and left Gronti's for the most part without a power source.
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I know it's in the wiki, but it's not necessarily quest canon. There's a post with inevitable events, and Deep magic decline is not on it.
We shouldn't use that to decide whether or not to do something.

And for the record, I think that making an Adamant Gronti is a vanity project that is very far out of Snorri's character, and will vote against it when push comes to shove.
 
IronFist said:
I know it's in the wiki, but it's not necessarily quest canon. There's a post with inevitable events, and Deep magic decline is not on it.
We shouldn't use that to decide whether or not to do something.

And for the record, I think that making an Adamant Gronti is a vanity project that is very far out of Snorri's character, and will vote against it when push comes to shove.
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I think that those are examples of some things not literally the only things that we can't change.
If you're coming here saying that this quest may not conform to the canon of the larger setting, its on you to justify that, not on me to prove the negative. And a list that makes no reference to most of the significant events in warhammer history is not proof.

This is a weird argument because I also am anti Adamant Golem, and also think that we shouldn't use the decline of Deep Magic to inform choices, because metagaming and that the quest will likely die before it becomes relevant (heres hoping I'm wrong about that)
 
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