RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[Alratan]

While I wouldn't mind expanding the Hearth Guard in the future I think we should give them a few decades to settle in to the new numbers. Let the new members get used to being a part of it and work out any kinks with integrating the Brana before we expand again.

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Given how slowly it grows anyway, gaining around a couple of people a year, I think that happens automatically. We don't need to pause for decades to work the kinks out. Dwarves are just as smart and socially competent as humans. They don't need decades to learn how to work together.

Pausing recruitment for so long seems more likely to make it harder than easier, as the processes and informal systems to induct and integrate new people will fade away. Stagnation seems more of a threat. A continual trickle of new blood prevents that, helping prevent groupthink and complacency taking over. You want them to be used to overcoming kinks and minor internal challenges associated with them, as that should make them better at helping other groups of dwarves so the same.

 

[DragonParadox]

You know I wonder if Brana will learn Wind enchantment eventually? They have to be quite impressed by runesmiths and while enchanting is far from the same thing it does serve a similar possibility complementary function.

 

[Sir LagsAlot]

I don't know having like one hundred and eighty Hearth Guard seems like too many for now we know they get less tightly nit and all that as they grow larger plus one hundred and twenty is already a large amount compared to most other retainer groups like this that aren't owned by Kings.

 

[LaggPlaguedDuke]

Meh, we'd just have this same discussion again at 180 when we unlock some new dudes and are stuck at the cap. Gl to us if an elf ever was added to the recruitment pool. I'd just wait till they get upgraded to orange and we have some new special units from standing bonuses available before going up to 180. 3 retainer actions is enough for now.

 

[Alratan]

You know I wonder if Brana will learn Wind enchantment eventually? They have to be quite impressed by runesmiths and while enchanting is far from the same thing it does serve a similar possibility complementary function.

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I suspect that Snorri will eventually buy books on elven enchanting as part of his exploration of their alchemy, and is likely to share them with the Brana of no one beats him to it.

I don't know having like one hundred and eighty Hearth Guard seems like too many for now we know they get less tightly nit and all that as they grow larger plus one hundred and twenty is already a large amount compared to most other retainer groups like this that aren't owned by Kings.

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Snorri is already, in his own way, as high status as a king. I suspect that will only grow.

I also think that things like the Hearthguard forming a community around his workshop will ensure that they stay tightly nit, as their descendants do things like intermarry.

Meh, we'd just have this same discussion again at 180 when we unlock some new dudes and are stuck at the cap. Gl to us if an elf ever was added to the recruitment pool. I'd just wait till they get upgraded to orange and we have some new special units from standing bonuses available before going up to 180. 3 retainer actions is enough for now.

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I suspect that the number of retainer actions we have available will grow to fill the space available. There could well be projects that would require multiple retainer actions to be taken in the same turn, for example, and more of Snorri's personal projects that the retainers can contribute to.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Out of curiosity, how would we go about raising our standings with other Runelords? We can't collaborate with them on our projects so there has to be a way to gain standing with them outside of marching off to battle. Any thoughts?

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Keep in mind that the inverse of raising our standing with them, is that they have to work even harder to prove they're worthy of our secrets.
Basically Standing isn't the secret to getting collaboration going and there are no easy solutions.
Doing something like that requires checking narrative boxes off, not mechanical ones.

Alratan might be too optimistic, but I can easily see higher-level alchemy being at least partial transmutation.

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Sure I can't say its not possible.

While I wouldn't mind expanding the Hearth Guard in the future I think we should give them a few decades to settle in to the new numbers. Let the new members get used to being a part of it and work out any kinks with integrating the Brana before we expand again.

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Isn't 100 already the region of king of a small hold or something? I thought it had already been commented on in story (but off to sleep now so can't go quote hunting)

 

[pucflek]

While I wouldn't mind expanding the Hearth Guard in the future I think we should give them a few decades to settle in to the new numbers. Let the new members get used to being a part of it and work out any kinks with integrating the Brana before we expand again.

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I think our retinue is appropriately sized if i am being honest. We can theoretically go up to 180, but the way Snorri was talking about it in the update did not make me think it was like, all that desirable. And i honestly don't see the one more action we get from it as that much of a bonus.

Isn't 100 already the region of king of a small hold or something? I thought it had already been commented on in story (but off to sleep now so can't go quote hunting)

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Yeah basically. One of the reasons i am not too keen.

EDIT: found it

"Quite a powerful thing as well. That's damn near the size of the Huskarl contingent that King Otrek takes with him on his campaigns nowadays," Sifna counters.

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I kinda don't want to lug around that many dawi.

 

[Jreengus]

I'm not sure about specific sizes for a kings retinue but soulcake said we can go up to about 300 safely:

Kings have the largest retinues on average, because a King has a lot of stuff he can send his retainers to do. Guard important places and people, act as messengers, protect his person during War, and a whole host of other stuff. The thing of having a larger retinue is its basically saying, I have taken on a lot of responsibilities and these guys help me fulfill them + I am important enough to warrant this many people defending me.

It's a political statement at its core just as much as it is a simple change of numbers.

The nuance is what you're gonna be having those guys doing. If they do nothing, it's wasteful, but if you're using them the way you have been Snorri reckons no one is gonna be too upset. It will likely stay that way as long as you don't infringe on the rights of Kings or powerful lords or what have you, and keep the Hearth Guard to being what is essentially Snorri's personal beatstick when in times of war but are otherwise roaming the North doing good deeds and helping the average Dwarf.

Look, if you keep them to the spirit of their founding purpose you can get away with a lot, in the Far North at least. That's a consequence/benefit of your high Standing in the region. Maybe. Snorri thinks that at least.

By his reckoning 300 is fine, as long as they're always out doing something. Going above that is gonna say something, but what that entails is on you to make clear through your actions.
Who knows, you may get other options if their numbers increase higher.

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I'm not sure I'd support going all the way up to 300 but I certainly wouldn't mind going larger than 120, especially if it let us assign the guard to permanent duties rather than the adhoc system of sending them off to do random things.

 

[MrHobbit]

I'm not sure I'd support going all the way up to 300 but I certainly wouldn't mind going larger than 120, especially if it let us assign the guard to permanent duties rather than the adhoc system of sending them off to do random things.

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On one hand, I like the idea of the Hearthguard doing more Cool Things. On the other hand, what are we ever going to do with all that favor we have. We won't have much use for Kraka Drakk favor for much longer, and we've already got the Ravsnvake favor all lined up for use, but not really for the rest.

 

[pucflek]

I'm not sure I'd support going all the way up to 300 but I certainly wouldn't mind going larger than 120, especially if it let us assign the guard to permanent duties rather than the adhoc system of sending them off to do random things.

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That is what Soulcake said yeah, but we got that last blurb that i quoted that says that Otrek's own guard is barely larger than our own retinue, and Kraka Drakk is iirc the greatest hold in the Far North. I am not really that interested in pursuing that avenue, mostly because it doesn't seem in character for Snorri. To me anyway. Other interpretations are obviously also valid

 

[MrHobbit]

That is what Soulcake said yeah, but we got that last blurb that i quoted that says that Otrek's own guard is barely larger than our own retinue, and Kraka Drakk is iirc the greatest hold in the Far North. I am not really that interested in pursuing that avenue, mostly because it doesn't seem in character for Snorri. To me anyway. Other interpretations are obviously also valid

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Ehh, Otrek has more than 120 Huskarls. He doesn't take all of them on campaign with him. He would have a fair amount acting as bodyguards for his Heir and the rest of his family. Along with various things/people he deemed important, like Snorri's workshop before he transferred Rudil and the rest over to Snorri.

Edit: Do keep in mind that I am not arguing for expanding the Hearthguard. I don't like the idea of it for reasons already mentioned. Mechanical benefits be damned.

 

[TimEd]

Lets just decide if expansion is waranted when we reach the cap.

Mainly, I am looking for narrative reactions to either our roving band of problem solvers, or even the town that got inadvertently built around our workshop.

 

[xXxBlueViperxXx]

With the continued growth of the Hearthguard, and there likely being new specialists that we'll unlock access to as we raise our standing, I think we should consider expanding its numbers when we reach the current cap, simply so we can increase the breadth of what it can contribute to the continued and growing prosperity of the Far North.

I'm not sure how common the kind of inter-disciplinary organisation that Snorri has founded here is - or the kind of community that it's formed around his workshop, given how most dwarves both live and work in clans mostly dedicated to a single occupation. Encouraging its growth and the likely network effects of having so many elder specialists working together to solve problems seems like a really good thing, and it becomes even more valuable every time a new specialism is added to the network.

Revealing his development of Gromril Chain may well also give Snorri enough stature to make such an expansion uncontroversial as well.

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Got to say not really enthusiastic about expanding it as soon as it hits the cap as it does not give us much time to meet and increase our standings enough to get new varieties of units and skill which puts us on a timer to do actions that increases standings.

More urgent action to do instead of researching mastery of our rune, gazuls prod, eye replacement rune, metal and chain.

 

[ConfusedCanuck]

With the continued growth of the Hearthguard, and there likely being new specialists that we'll unlock access to as we raise our standing, I think we should consider expanding its numbers when we reach the current cap, simply so we can increase the breadth of what it can contribute to the continued and growing prosperity of the Far North.

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Yeah no I'm perfectly happy with 120 if we continue to build the numbers every time we hit the cap question's will be asked by other dwarfs there's a limit to how far we can expand our retinue. And 120 is good enough for our needs there's no really need to expand beyond that.

If we keep trying to expand the guard every time it fills up or every few centuries then it defeats the purpose of us having them, the purpose of having them is an elite force that serves us and the people. That doesn't happen when it's more an army then a personal retinue! And at that point we shouldn't have taken on a retinue in the first place! Not only that there's the political cost we where able to expand the guard to 120 because dwarfs accepted that it was to help more of there kin. But if we keep doing so what then? There comes a point where it's not about helping there kin but amassing power for some unknown reason that will leave them suspicious of us and even if that's not the case it sure won't look that way to others. So no we shouldn't expand the guard beyond 120 it's the ideal number for us to help others and to support us on the battlefield and it should stay this way.

 

[jjffjhjf]

Ehh, I'm fine with expanding eventually, once we hit the 1200-1300 age range, have much higher standing and the like, it'd make a lot more sense for us to expand a bit more. For now, 120 is probably fine.

 

[Verdom]

Yeah no I'm perfectly happy with 120 if we continue to build the numbers every time we hit the cap question's will be asked by other dwarfs there's a limit to how far we can expand our retinue. And 120 is good enough for our needs there's no really need to expand beyond that.

If we keep trying to expand the guard every time it fills up or every few centuries then it defeats the purpose of us having them, the purpose of having them is an elite force that serves us and the people. That doesn't happen when it's more an army then a personal retinue! And at that point we shouldn't have taken on a retinue in the first place! Not only that there's the political cost we where able to expand the guard to 120 because dwarfs accepted that it was to help more of there kin. But if we keep doing so what then? There comes a point where it's not about helping there kin but amassing power for some unknown reason that will leave them suspicious of us and even if that's not the case it sure won't look that way to others. So no we shouldn't expand the guard beyond 120 it's the ideal number for us to help others and to support us on the battlefield and it should stay this way.

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The 'other dawi being suspicious' argument doesn't work when Snorri thinks that its safe to expand till 300 as long as we keep using them to help everyone, and he knows better than us about dawi politics.

Kings have the largest retinues on average, because a King has a lot of stuff he can send his retainers to do. Guard important places and people, act as messengers, protect his person during War, and a whole host of other stuff. The thing of having a larger retinue is its basically saying, I have taken on a lot of responsibilities and these guys help me fulfill them + I am important enough to warrant this many people defending me.

It's a political statement at its core just as much as it is a simple change of numbers.

The nuance is what you're gonna be having those guys doing. If they do nothing, it's wasteful, but if you're using them the way you have been Snorri reckons no one is gonna be too upset. It will likely stay that way as long as you don't infringe on the rights of Kings or powerful lords or what have you, and keep the Hearth Guard to being what is essentially Snorri's personal beatstick when in times of war but are otherwise roaming the North doing good deeds and helping the average Dwarf.

Look, if you keep them to the spirit of their founding purpose you can get away with a lot, in the Far North at least. That's a consequence/benefit of your high Standing in the region. Maybe. Snorri thinks that at least.

By his reckoning 300 is fine, as long as they're always out doing something. Going above that is gonna say something, but what that entails is on you to make clear through your actions.
Who knows, you may get other options if their numbers increase higher.

Click to shrink...

 

[ConfusedCanuck]

The 'other dawi being suspicious' argument doesn't work when Snorri thinks that its safe to expand till 300 as long as we keep using them to help everyone, and he knows better than us about dawi politics.

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Ok fine thanks for pointing out soulcake's post about it I was looking for that earlier.

I still don't want to expand it beyond 120 just because we can doesn't mean we have to or should people constantly feel more is better and some times it's not. And just because Soulcake says it's fine till 300 doesn't mean we have to go there in the end retinue's are meant as an elite force for their chosen lord. And I feel here if we move beyond 120 that our bodyguards become less and less an elite force and more an army which defeats the purpose of having them. And bluntly I don't want to expand them any more I like them where they are and I feel they are more then adequate for there intended role.

 

[BelligerentGnu]

While I wouldn't mind expanding the Hearth Guard in the future I think we should give them a few decades to settle in to the new numbers. Let the new members get used to being a part of it and work out any kinks with integrating the Brana before we expand again.

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Agreed. If nothing else, I want to develop our (and the guard's) credibility a great deal more before we start saying, "we deserve as much status as King Otrek".

 

[Verdom]

Ok fine thanks for pointing out soulcake's post about it I was looking for that earlier.

I still don't want to expand it beyond 120 just because we can doesn't mean we have to or should people constantly feel more is better and some times it's not. And just because Soulcake says it's fine till 300 doesn't mean we have to go there in the end retinue's are meant as an elite force for their chosen lord. And I feel here if we move beyond 120 that our bodyguards become less and less an elite force and more an army which defeats the purpose of having them. And bluntly I don't want to expand them any more I like them where they are and I feel they are more then adequate for there intended role.

Click to shrink...

They're less our 'bodyguards' than "force which goes around helping dawi under Snorri's name" which is the reason we get the latitude we do. If we stop using them to mostly help other dawi and genuinely as our own force then it'll get more limited. We should look at them how we use them.

 

[Ithillid]

With a larger guard, I feel like the only good reason to expand is if there is either some radical new capability that we can offer to them, but won't be able to spread effectively, or if we end up specializing towards fighting a particular enemy, and want to be able to send off a significant force and keep one defending home base.

 

[ConfusedCanuck]

They're less our 'bodyguards' than "force which goes around helping dawi under Snorri's name" which is the reason we get the latitude we do. If we stop using them to mostly help other dawi and genuinely as our own force then it'll get more limited. We should look at them how we use them.

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There still technically our bodyguards even if it's only a secondary purpose. And I never said anything about not using them only not expanding them any further then they are. And just because we use them to help others doesn't mean we need to expand them more after all there doing an excellent job doing that as they are now. Look in the end I believe 120 is the ideal number for the group and I personally don't want to expand it beyond that and I have no intentions on doing so.

And with that I wish you good night.

With a larger guard, I feel like the only good reason to expand is if there is either some radical new capability that we can offer to them, but won't be able to spread effectively, or if we end up specializing towards fighting a particular enemy, and want to be able to send off a significant force and keep one defending home base.

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This I would be willing to make an exception for but only this and I honestly don't see it happening any time soon at all.

 

[Jreengus]

Now that we've recruited someone who can translate for us we can potentially pick up the benefits of the alchemy texts before we learn Eltharin (We should definitely still learn Eltharin anyway though). Looking at the costs and our current and incoming favour we have:

[ ] Eltharin?: [Cost: 5 actions, 20 Favour from Kraka Ravnsvake] Journeyman of the Odd will proc. Gain chance at an Elf teacher and proficient understanding of Eltharin. Valma was asked, she said she wasn't going through explaining that hell again. It's as ominous a sign as any.
- Looking for a Native: [Cost: 30 Favour from Kraka Ravnsvake] Gain Elf teacher and -fluent understanding of Eltharin.

[ ] An Alchemical Almanac or Four: [Cost: 3 actions and/or retainer actions] Gain an understanding of Alchemy. Rewards locked until Eltharin learned or texts translated.
- [ ] Comprehensive Knowledge: [Cost: +3 actions and/or retainer actions and 20 Favour from Kraka Ravnsvake] Gain Specialty: Alchemy.
- [ ] All of it, ALL OF IT: [Cost: +2 actions and or retainer actions and 20 Favour from Kraka Ravnsvake] Requires Comprehensive Knowledge. Gain Specialty: Alchemy (Exceptional).
- [ ] Local Knowledge: [Cost: 10 Favour from Kraka Ravnsvake] Gain 1 progress. Can be taken multiple times and without actions.

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[ ] [Difficult] A Princely Wedding Gift Pt.1: [Cost: 1 action] Due end of Turn 36. If a rune you want requires special ingredients that you don't have access to I will alert you. Apply optional Rune Ingredients here. Gain 100 Favour with Kraka Ravnsvake

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Kraka Ravnsvake, "The Raven's Roost Hold": Standing 9, Favours 60

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So, to summarise, we have 60 favour and expect to earn 100 more next turn for a total of 160. Meanwhile learning Eltharin from an elf costs 50 favour and picking up every available almanac costs 40 favour and 8 actions for a total cost of 90 favour.

This means we could take the book gathering action next turn or the turn after then spend 70 favour the turn after next to get it to 7/8 at that point all we need is one Hearth Guard action to finish it off and we can still afford the elven eltharin teacher. Then we either get Nightfeather to translate or else we just have the books ready for once we can read them ourselves.

 

[Alratan]

I'd still say we should learn Eltharin as soon as possible, but starting to build a library is probably worth it.

The one exception is that if we think we're going to get Standing 10 with Kraka Ravnsvake in the near future it might make it cheaper to get the books. It probably won't though.

I do wonder whether it's likely that a Brana would learn to read rather than just speak Eltharin, given the physical challenges they'd have with books.

 

[Jreengus]

I'd still say we should learn Eltharin as soon as possible, but starting to build a library is probably worth it.

The one exception is that if we think we're going to get Standing 10 with Kraka Ravnsvake in the near future it might make it cheaper to get the books. It probably won't though.

I do wonder whether it's likely that a Brana would learn to read rather than just speak Eltharin, given the physical challenges they'd have with books.

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I'd be on board for learning Eltharin the turn after we finish the armour commissions, 41 if we don't take the Gazul commission, 43 if we do. I hadn't considered that Nightfeather might not be able to read it, maybe he'd be up for learning to read to help us out if he can't already.

 

[MasterDrakus]

You guys think making the Raven gate would take us to 10 standing with them maybe? Could give some good reward since they are the major port hold in our area.