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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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A decaying empire such as the Karaz Ankor during WHF canon would not be a civilization in which many would be willing to bring children into honestly. And those that do simply do so out of duty rather than because they want to have children. Maybe some of them actually want those kids but they'd probably be among the minority.
That seems a lot like saying "why would anyone in Eastern Rome between the years 600-900 want to have kids? The Empire is dying." The plague reappearing every once in a while and constant war didn't stop people from making more babies

To say that they purposefully avoid having children seems like a big whooping stretch. Like Soul said, this is a pre-industrial world, infant mortality is likely huge a factor even before bringing in factors like constant war.
 
That seems a lot like saying "why would anyone in Eastern Rome between the years 600-900 want to have kids? The Empire is dying." The plague reappearing every once in a while and constant war didn't stop people from making more babies

To say that they purposefully avoid having children seems like a big whooping stretch. Like Soul said, this is a pre-industrial world, infant mortality is likely huge a factor even before bringing in factors like constant war.
In modern society, people refusing to have children is a major drive of the low birthrate. If Dwarves have access to easy contraception and do not need children to care for them when they're old, both of which are not unlikely, you would see the same pattern.
It doesn't help that with the skewed gender ratio that Dwarves have, one woman would need on average 4 children, not 2, to hit replacement rate.

Another factor might be lower life expectancy - soulcake describe dwarves routinely living into their 1000, which as far as I know isn't true by the canon era, so it's possible that Dwarven women simply don't have the time to have 4 children, they're dying too young.
Kind of a K-strategist/r-strategist situation compared to Humans: Dwarves invest more into their offspring than Humans do, but have less on average. That's typically a superior strategy in the absence of disturbances (like during the Golden Age), because you can outcompete other species, but a losing strategy when there are a lot of disturbances and high birthrates help bounce back, which is why the Karaz Ankor keeps declining.
 
Dwarfs, I don't think, are blind to their debt settling and vengeance happy nature. I imagine that if the Ancestors hadn't come along to install some system of making sure Dwarfs don't enter generations-long feuds among each other, simple selection pressure would have killed them all off a long while ago.

Questwise, the Ancestors did just that, but there are dwarfs who do still remember the days of Clan on Clan warfare and the bitter blood-feuds in Zorn and the earliest of the far southern Holds.
What does Snorri know about this? Like does he know what were the general disputes and what the Ancestors did to unify them? I could easily see Dwarfs Not Wanting to Talk About It because it wouldn't present them as unified.

Hmm, I wonder if that could have played a role in the Day of Golden Tears and the subsequent exodus.
 
Also question, when to humans start migrating from the wolflands again?

dum is nearby(ish)

Dum is something like five thousand miles from the Wolflands....

And the series of human migrations across the World's Edge Mountain was apparently in response to the western migration of iron and steel using greenskins (initially taught to the chaos dwarves' greenskin slaves that then escaped) from their homeland in the east of the Darklands that was itself triggered by the Slann induced vulcanism that ushered in the TIme of Woes in -1,500 IC, so in about two and a half thousand years.

The northern migration through the High Pass into the lands that would become Kislev happened about fifteen hundred years.
 
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Dum is something like five thousand miles from the Wolflands....

And the human migration across the World's Edge Mountain was apparently in response to the western migration of iron and steel using greenskins from their homeland in the east of the Darklands that was itself triggered by the Slann induced vulcanism that ushered in the TIme of Woes in -1,500 IC, so in about two and a half thousand years.
Speaking of Slann shenagins, in warhammer 2 when you play as the berd elf or the lozard bois you have a minor faction of dwarves where are camped out in the mountains called Soteks Spine or what have you, is there any explainable reason as to why those poor dawi are lost in the wild of Lusteria? Or were they a clan of dwarves who were swept up in the big time of woes that lead to them settling down in that small mountain range? I just felt bad for the poor guys cuz they were basically stuck in their starting mountain chain as the nearest mountain was like 2 or 3 turns away that is a habitable town for them. Never mind the poor dwarves who settle in the one small mountain that is in Araby.
 
Speaking of Slann shenagins, in warhammer 2 when you play as the berd elf or the lozard bois you have a minor faction of dwarves where are camped out in the mountains called Soteks Spine or what have you, is there any explainable reason as to why those poor dawi are lost in the wild of Lusteria? Or were they a clan of dwarves who were swept up in the big time of woes that lead to them settling down in that small mountain range? I just felt bad for the poor guys cuz they were basically stuck in their starting mountain chain as the nearest mountain was like 2 or 3 turns away that is a habitable town for them. Never mind the poor dwarves who settle in the one small mountain that is in Araby.
Theres no canonical context for it, my best guess is that they're there for gameplay flavour. That or maybe CA is planning a Dwarf DLC involving Sven Hasselfriesian in some nebulous future.

Basically, no they don't exist here. Doesn't really make sense for them to in this time period regardless.
 
Speaking of Slann shenagins, in warhammer 2 when you play as the berd elf or the lozard bois you have a minor faction of dwarves where are camped out in the mountains called Soteks Spine or what have you, is there any explainable reason as to why those poor dawi are lost in the wild of Lusteria? Or were they a clan of dwarves who were swept up in the big time of woes that lead to them settling down in that small mountain range? I just felt bad for the poor guys cuz they were basically stuck in their starting mountain chain as the nearest mountain was like 2 or 3 turns away that is a habitable town for them. Never mind the poor dwarves who settle in the one small mountain that is in Araby.

They're in a location that is a mystery on the Warhammer map beyond having a location called the Mine of Bearded Skulls, that CW ran with. A justification for their presence there is that it could be a colony founded with elven assistance during the Golden Age.
 
You know, with Dolgi's relationship with the Branakroki, do you think it's possible for him to eventually bumble into a Rune that best describes the Brana like how the Rune of Stone = Dawi, as well as creating an Ancestor Rune that describes the King of the Skies? And maybe the Master Rune version of it too? Not in the next few turns, of course, but like, a few hundred turns later.
 
You know, with Dolgi's relationship with the Branakroki, do you think it's possible for him to eventually bumble into a Rune that best describes the Brana like how the Rune of Stone = Dawi, as well as creating an Ancestor Rune that describes the King of the Skies? And maybe the Master Rune version of it too? Not in the next few turns, of course, but like, a few hundred turns later.
That... actually makes sense. If the Runes are associated with concepts and the one for Stone also links to the concept of a Dwarf, then there's probably Runes with concepts tied to other races too. Less sure on a potential Ancestor Rune though, those are pretty specific.
 
[Non Canon???] Imperial Historian Torbold Twodinger's Journey to Cathay Pt.1, +15 to a Global RER Roll [USED]
The Illustrious Adventure to Mysterious Cathay; Volume One: The Plains of Bone and Fire

As you may have gleaned, based upon this volume's title, the tales enclosed within this book are not merely risque romance stories, nor, in fact, a tepid retelling of walks through lands nearest to the Empire. No, this tale is one of grand adventure, of mind-breaking distances, and of heart-wrenching loss. And I must commend you, gentle reader, of having the discerning eye and intellect to choose this tale over all the lessers that might pull at your attention. For I am Hildemar Mangels, explorer extraordinaire who has walked to the ends of the known world and then beyond to bring back knowledge of what those far off lands hold. So listen with rapt attention as I journey through the World's Edge Mountains and into the vast… Plains of Bone and Fire.

Your eyes have not deceived you! Indeed, I speak of those far off lands in which lives the honorable Dwarves and all manner of horrible beasts and monsters which plague the honest and humble merchants who seek to better themselves through trade with far off lands. Rumor and myth abound about those dark fields and wind-swept crags, and I have hope that my journey will clarify the truth of these lands and cut away the falsehoods.

My adventure began with a merchant caravan traveling to Karak Kadrin in preparation for an expedition all the way to Cathay and back. I shall speak little of Karak Kadrin, however, for the plethora of my lesser fellows have written whole seas about its splendor. Suffice to say, it is everything and more when one imagines an old Dwarven Karak sitting on such a valuable pass through the World's Edge Mountains. But despite the extravagance that Karak Kadrin holds, it is not the topic of this adventure. For beyond its walls and halls lie lands of vast wealth and hardship in equal measure. And it is those lands that I shall travel through before even having the chance of setting eyes on Cathay itself.

What may surprise those of you reading this is that the caravan did not travel with goods of gold, jewels, or glass but instead with common foodstuffs. Grain and preserved meats predominantly. The intent, for my intellectual readers, might be abundantly clear. For in the Plains of Bone and Fire it is not gold or jewels which holds the most value, for that wealth flows like the waters of the Aver. No, it is the simple pleasures of life that are scarcest in these harsh lands. Grains are near impossible to grow in those blasted fields and what monsters can be hunted safely can only be used as magical reagents or as fuel for the eternal forges of the Dwarves.

So, it is the common grains and meats of the Empire that fetch extreme prices amongst the Dwarven Karaks, and it is expected that a merchant can empty entire caravans of foodstuffs only to fill those same coffers with gold, rubies, sapphires, and diamonds. Such is the insight of the merchants that the wealth procured in these lands can be used to get ever more extravagant spices and silks from Cathay.

But, I am sure, you do not want to hear the economics of these lands. No! You want to hear of the horrors which roam such a landscape, of the vistas which stir the heart to valor or make the mind quiver in fear. And you shall have them, for these lands abound in such sights as to make the mind burst with fear and awe.

First, as we left East from Karak Kadrin towards Cathay, we encountered the land colloquially called the Blasted Wastes. And, in my knowledgeable opinion, no better name could have been given. This wasteland is blasted by a blistering sun and violent winds. Rain hardly falls in this land, but, I am told, when it does it comes with such violence as to create dangerous landslides and torrential floods among the lower canyons. Nothing of value can live and grow in these lands. The only shrubbery that I saw was dead branches blown into the wastes from more verdant places and the only creatures I saw were sulking tribes of goblins, eeking out an existence. Only one tribe was desperate enough to attack our caravan though, and while it made a few moments of excitement, the tribe was driven off with only a few scrapes by our guards.

After only a day traveling East in the Blasted Wastes, we turned North and made for a plateau the Dwarves call Zorn Uzkul. Which is known in the Empire as The Great Skull Land. Keeping the World's Edge Mountains to our left, we traveled for weeks in the blistering desert which makes up most of this inhospitable place. Eventually, though, the sands, rocks, and heat of the desert were left behind for more temperate scrubland. It is here that hardy plants struggle to survive and the monsters become more common. In the distance, I saw a small herd of Beastmen engaged in a pitched battle with a tribe of Orcs, battling for what looked to be a small cleft in the land. Our caravan wisely avoided the area, and the fight.

It took only a few days of trekking North before our destination became visible. A massive plateau rising from the horizon like the wall of gods and scrapping the very clouds themselves. Seeming to grow no closer despite the days of traveling, the size of this geological feature soon impressed upon me its vastness. I can think of no singular feature that so clearly encapsulates how truly wide and massive this world of ours is. It is… unfortunate, then, that the Dwarves who live in this majestic region are of such dour character.

Make no mistake, they hospitable to travelers, especially to travelers carrying prized foodstuffs, but they are even more taciturn than the older Dwarves who live near the Empire, if such a thing could be possible. Joy seems to be as far from their mind as zealotry is close to their hearts. And woe to the man who speaks dismissively of their ancestors or gods, for they will find themselves quickly thrown out of the tavern they stay at and encouraged, strongly, to go back to whence they came.

What, however, these Dwarves lack in character they more than make up for in extravagance! Even the paupers that I spied amongst the crowds of Dwarves were bedecked in jewels and gold. Beards tightly braided and interwoven with strands of gold and steel, encrusted with rubies, sapphires, and emeralds, displayed for all to see and marvel at. Even the Emperor is not dressed as finely as the poorest amongst them. And the buildings! Carved with the care and expertise that Dwarves are known for from the materials around them. Great vaults scrape the sky and statutes of their gods and heroes stand vigilant at every corner of every street. I even had the privilege of seeing some runic craft on their gateways. And, while I do not know the express purpose of the rune, even my lesser fellows could guess at the purpose of keeping the Dwarves within safe from that which lurks outside.

My greatest experience while staying at this Karak, however, was not the extravagance of the Dwarves or the marvelous craftsmanship of their buildings, but the adventure I had outside the safety of the Karak. While drinking at a local tavern, I was able to cajole one of my table companions into assisting me on a trip up the plateau and to see the vistas beyond. And, my attentive listeners, the name "Great Skull Land" is truly descriptive of what I saw there. Carpets of bones from titanic creatures. Columns of ivory piled haphazardly as far as the eye could see. Skulls bigger than buildings in Altdorf at the head of rib cages large enough to swallow mammoths whole. Alas, my journey was not to the north of this exquisite mystery but rather to the east. So, with sadness weighing heavily on my heart, I journeyed back down to the Karak to prepare for the caravan's journey East. To Grand Cathay.

However! We are not done with this amazing land and the frightful journey through it. With the caravan's sales finished and the stocking of profitable materials complete, we traveled East, keeping the great plateau to our left as we journeyed to the Black River. It was a more comfortable journey than the one that led us to the Karak, as the blistering sun had faded beneath rolling clouds of ash that seemed to plague this land. And while the ash caused some severe coughing fits, wetted cloths around the mouth kept the worst at bay.

After many a week of traveling, we eventually reached the Black River, a raging river which cuts through the Eastern side of these lands and keeps the larger monsters of the Mountains of Mourne in those very same mountains. It had been decided, before the journey began, that traveling south at this point to reach the more easily traversable southern pass of Ind would be safer than braving the wilds of the Mountains of Mourne to reach Cathay more directly. This was especially convenient for me as I would be able to witness one of the fables of the Plains of Bone and Fire. The Maw of the Underearth.

The rumors of this place do it no justice. A pit as large as Altdorf deeper than what can be seen from which fires and sulfur belches like a burping drunkard. And, while the comparison may be apt, do not mention such an analogy near Dwarves, especially the Eastern Dwarves. For this maw is of some special and sacred importance to them where their legends say their god of death, a fellow by the name of Gazul, strode against another god of brass and blood which had been tormenting the Dwarves for some time. It was here, the myths say, that Gazul smote that god and shattered him, striking out his existence from our world. I can certainly see how the maw could inspire such myths and legends, for it does appear as if it is a gaping mouth to the underworld from which nothing can return. What better god, then, to attribute such a geological feature than to their god of death and the underworld?

Alas, I did not have much time to spend there and marvel at the scenery, for our supplies would not last indefinitely, and we still had a fair distance to travel before even reaching the southern pass. While I was able to conduct a more thorough investigation on my trip back, those results will have to wait until a future installment. For our journey through these dark and despairing lands was coming to an end, and my travels through mystical Ind was about to begin.

A/N: With the existence of the Eastern Dwarves being more friendly and joined with the other realms of Dwarves, I figured that it would be fun to see a bit of how an eccentric traveler would see the land. I hope you enjoyed the read!
 
In modern society, people refusing to have children is a major drive of the low birthrate. If Dwarves have access to easy contraception and do not need children to care for them when they're old, both of which are not unlikely, you would see the same pattern.
It doesn't help that with the skewed gender ratio that Dwarves have, one woman would need on average 4 children, not 2, to hit replacement rate.

Another factor might be lower life expectancy - soulcake describe dwarves routinely living into their 1000, which as far as I know isn't true by the canon era, so it's possible that Dwarven women simply don't have the time to have 4 children, they're dying too young.
Kind of a K-strategist/r-strategist situation compared to Humans: Dwarves invest more into their offspring than Humans do, but have less on average. That's typically a superior strategy in the absence of disturbances (like during the Golden Age), because you can outcompete other species, but a losing strategy when there are a lot of disturbances and high birthrates help bounce back, which is why the Karaz Ankor keeps declining.
If a dwarf woman on average has 1 kid every 50 years then the dwarfs easily have a growing population. Or even every hundred years.
 
They probably get sick and tired of having babies at some point in their first millenium. Also it does appear that a large minority don't even marry (or the story isn't mentioning their eventual marriages).
 
They probably get sick and tired of having babies at some point in their first millenium. Also it does appear that a large minority don't even marry (or the story isn't mentioning their eventual marriages).
only 25% of dwarves are female so if they're having a 100% marriage rate that still leaves half of dwarves out in the cold.
I assume homosexuality is a lot more common in dwarves than humans?.?.?.?
 
only 25% of dwarves are female so if they're having a 100% marriage rate that still leaves half of dwarves out in the cold.
I assume homosexuality is a lot more common in dwarves than humans?.?.?.?
Also possible, but they are uh. Whats the opposite of Polygamy? A wife often has multiple husbands. Valaya herself for example is married to both Grungni and Grimnir.

EDIT: nevermind me, polygamy is apparently unisex. So its Polyandry, or so sayeth wikipedia. I would have said the practice likely comes from time of woes, where multiple husbands would be deeply practical, but Valaya herself practiced it, so most likely not.
 
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Bear in mind, dawi do marry multiple people, so a dawi women can have multiple husbands.
Why are you jumping to the conclusion that I didn't know that the ancestor gods exist (although actually can't think of a example other than them, could you suggest one?).

And while thats part of the explanation, I don't think dwarf society divides neatly into quartets any more ours divides into couples. I am talking out of my ass here as I've never been in one however I would assume a poly couple requires the approval of everyone involved to add a new member to it.
 
Why are you jumping to the conclusion that I didn't know that the ancestor gods exist (although actually can't think of a example other than them, could you suggest one?).
Well first of all that was me, so you have the wrong guy. Second of all, i did not really say that there can't be same gender couples. I just said that there is most likely a fuckton of married x-tuples, as evidenced by Valaya herself.

As for the deetz, i don't have the books, you will have to find someone else to provide them. But futile search of the net seems to just, not have any, outside of the ancestor gods themselves. Most likely on account of GW being asshats and not having a single Dwarf Woman character worth of note.
 
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